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Thread: The Bible is unreadable

  1. #46
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Heh, you seem to have misread Eliot - he very much was using the common speech, in contrast to models like Tennyson, who were deliberately periphrastic. Eliot himself tried to establish himself as using a more common speech - I believe he phrased it as the language of conversation.

    Periphrasis comes and goes with tastes - it was surely in fashion during Shakespeare's time, and the influence of John Lyly on his work - you can trace the development of his style too, from the pun crazy, rhetoric loving pentameters of Romeo and Juliet to the more loose highly enjambed verse rich with metaphor and imagery in The Winter's Tale.

    The KVJ never was, and never will be spoken language - written and spoken English didn't really collide from my knowledge until later - the actual people's speak is generally different - take American fiction now, for instance - only drama is written in the vernacular - the literary diction is modeled after British trends, which too don't reflect the spoken language.

    The Bible was meant to emulate the sort of archaic tones of the Old Testament in its translation - that's the reason for the language - it has nothing to do with spoken language, as, quite simply, literacy at that time was pitifully low anyway.

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    Isnt exactly this argument what gave birth to Coleridge's Suspension of Disbelief reggard Wordsworth Lyrical Ballads poems? And I think Eliot may use more comum language than writers who are under influence of Shakespeare, Chaucer, Milton, etc... but the daily speaker of english would sundenly say "We are the white man. Alas!" while talking with each other in the streets during the first part of XX century? I would find it funny...
    Anyways, if you study the language of oral storytellers, the most popular and closer to popular vocabulary and semantics, you will notice even them present some degree of stylization of language when storytelling; the form they build the sentences, link it, the words used to streess a momment in the narrative. This happens in the most casual and simple anedocte. So, accusing a literary work to be "not like people" talked makes no sense at all and just points why the option of JKV (never seen obviously, only read the bible in portuguese, except a few online parts)...
    As the bible aesthetical merits, any body of text that spawns a methology of interpretation like the hebrew texts did (fully aware the bible is just part of it) is obviously full of aesthetical merit and if anything, ultra-readable. The NT is so well crafted that Jesus is basically a prototype of Scherazade, framing stories within stories...

  3. #48
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    I cringe and a little part of me dies inside whenever you compare Shakespeare to Cormac McCarthy or Blood Meridian to Moby Dick.

    No qualitative comparison... just noting that major writers across a vast spectrum of time and space have written in a manner which in no way mimics the spoken word.
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  4. #49
    Registered User Red-Headed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    quite simply, literacy at that time was pitifully low anyway.
    I've often wondered just how true this is about the Elizabethan/Jacobean era as a whole. In England anyhow. In Wales English would have been a second language (as it still is in parts of North Wales), & the Welsh literary tradition predates the English. Arthur Golding's translation of Ovid's Metamorphoses into English (1565-67) was a huge seller. Shakespeare would have been familiar with both that & the original. There were many pirated editions of Shakespeare's plays (much to his chagrin) around. Although plays weren't exactly considered literature at the time. I don't know how many people actually were literate or semi-literate in an overall population of about six million. Much of the yeomanry were literate as they were the principle fee payers for Oxbridge. The reason behind the tradition for long summer holidays was that the sons of the yeomanry & other farmers/landowners could help with the harvest. They tried to send at least their eldest sons to university. I will need to research this more.
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  5. #50
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red-Headed View Post
    I've often wondered just how true this is about the Elizabethan/Jacobean era as a whole. In England anyhow. In Wales English would have been a second language (as it still is in parts of North Wales), & the Welsh literary tradition predates the English. Arthur Golding's translation of Ovid's Metamorphoses into English (1565-67) was a huge seller. Shakespeare would have been familiar with both that & the original. There were many pirated editions of Shakespeare's plays (much to his chagrin) around. Although plays weren't exactly considered literature at the time. I don't know how many people actually were literate or semi-literate in an overall population of about six million. Much of the yeomanry were literate as they were the principle fee payers for Oxbridge. The reason behind the tradition for long summer holidays was that the sons of the yeomanry & other farmers/landowners could help with the harvest. They tried to send at least their eldest sons to university. I will need to research this more.
    I think it is safe to say, right off the top - virtually all women were illiterate, and the rest of the population was hardly literate at all - basic literacy came much later - even in the 19th century literacy wasn't that high - in truth, I doubt it was at a very high standard up through the 20th century - the virtual lack of illiteracy we see today is a new phenomenon - I'm not an expert, but I gaurentee you that this so called literacy was reserved for certain classes - better to ask Petrarch's love, she can give an accurate statistic. The actual literary output shows nothing about literacy, as, quite simply, theatre and poetry didn't require literacy for distribution.

  6. #51
    Registered User Red-Headed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    I think it is safe to say, right off the top - virtually all women were illiterate,
    That sounds about right for the lower & lower middle classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    and the rest of the population was hardly literate at all - basic literacy came much later -
    I suppose most journeymen & day-labourers were illiterate but I am not so sure about the middle classes. The son of the farmer who owned the farm next to Shakespeare's father's farm regularly sent letters back to his family from university in fluent Latin (see William Shakespeare ~ Anthony Holden). That doesn't seem like illiteracy to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    even in the 19th century literacy wasn't that high - in truth, I doubt it was at a very high standard up through the 20th century -
    Again, in a population of around 30 million I wonder how many were actually literate, or at least semi-literate? I think it is an assumption to believe that the vast majority were totally illiterate. 99% of the peasantry probably were, but there is evidence that even in the Elizabethan era literacy among the yeomanry & higher classes was relatively high (among males anyway).


    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    the virtual lack of illiteracy we see today is a new phenomenon - I'm not an expert, but I gaurentee you that this so called literacy was reserved for certain classes
    Ermmm... that was my 'so called' point, I thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    The actual literary output shows nothing about literacy, as, quite simply, theatre and poetry didn't require literacy for distribution.
    I'm still not so sure...
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  7. #52
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    According to this roughly 30% of men and 10% of women were literate in Tudor England.
    http://www.bibliomania.com/1/7/333/2.../frameset.html

    I bet that's a stretch too. I bet for most of those who are claimed to be literate, it's probably around third grade level.
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  8. #53
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    According to this roughly 30% of men and 10% of women were literate in Tudor England.
    http://www.bibliomania.com/1/7/333/2.../frameset.html

    I bet that's a stretch too. I bet for most of those who are claimed to be literate, it's probably around third grade level.
    Literacy, actually, at that time was defined by the ability to sign one's own name - so, in essence, 20% of people could sign their own name - how many could read the bible, written in a literary language though?

  9. #54
    Registered User Red-Headed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    According to this roughly 30% of men and 10% of women were literate in Tudor England.
    http://www.bibliomania.com/1/7/333/2.../frameset.html

    I bet that's a stretch too. I bet for most of those who are claimed to be literate, it's probably around third grade level.
    That sounds like a good figure.

    I'm not sure what 3rd grade level is but this was my original point. When I said that literacy may have been higher than many people originally believed, I wouldn't have thought that it was particularly advanced.

    Remember that Shakespeare had quite a good Grammar school education & these institutions were certainly not on the decline in his time.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
    As the bible aesthetical merits, any body of text that spawns a methology of interpretation like the hebrew texts did (fully aware the bible is just part of it) is obviously full of aesthetical merit and if anything, ultra-readable. The NT is so well crafted that Jesus is basically a prototype of Scherazade, framing stories within stories...
    Anything can generate a lot of texts. There are lots of texts on 1960s council housing. But few would argue such housing has much in the way of aesthetic merits...

    Maybe the Bible is like the architecture of modern cities, mostly cobbled together dross, with some amazing features here and there... I need a tour guide :-)

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    Council housing are not going to spawn lots of texts like the bible is doing for 3000 years. But I was refering to Kabalah; which only the hebrewing books generated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mal4mac View Post
    Because I'd had no success reading the full Bible I thought I'd try an abridged version ("Testament" abridged by Philip Law). But I couldn't even get through that! It still had too many old prophets charging round the desert doing despicable, meaningless and unmotivated things.

    I was reading the Iliad at the same time, and turning to it for light relief! I finished that and started reading Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, and Tolstoy, so there was then no hope of continuing the Bible! I ground to a halt somewhere in "David" and just couldn't go on...

    The "100 minute Bible" has just been delivered, maybe I can finish that!

    Are there any out-takes forn the Bible that are actually readable for someone who expects a reasonable aesthetic experience from their reading? People like Stephen Mitchell have translated parts of the Bible (Job, Gospels...) I've a feeling that might be the way to go, i.e., read the parts that good writers and poets have felt worth translating.... Any recommendations along this line?
    Here you go. This should be easier.


    http://www.thebricktestament.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by andave_ya View Post
    unreadable? yowch. Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are hard-core, I admit, for all but the most dedicated of Bible scholars.
    That's what I meant by unreadable :-) Of course you can read it, but who, except Bible scholars, would want to? Which brings another question - who would want to be a Bible scholar? Why not be a scholar of something readable - like Shakespeare? I guess at universities you can't choose:

    "Sorry, Jeff, we already have a Shakespeare expert if you want tenure you need to be our Bible expert." Jeff slinks off looking grim but determined...

    I guess those brought up to be Christians also get the necessary steely determination. They are prepared to suffer, in the same way that Hindu fakirs stick pointed sticks through their flesh for their religion. Christians read Numbers instead...

    Harold Bloom does stress, along with Nietzsche, that many of the greatest writers make painful demands on the reader's abilities and patience, in the cause of a higher pleasure. But how much pain? Shakespeare is fine. The small pain of reading the notes in the RSC Complete Shakespeare is worth the ultimate pleasure.

    Even the storm of names & repetition in the unabridged Iliad is worth slogging through once for the reasonably frequent dramatic scenes of the highest calibre -- and it puts the equally violent Old Testament to shame in its far superior depiction of violence and its consequences. I read through some of the most violent books of the OT and the "Iliad" at the same time, and the difference was palpable.

    "Testament" which Harold Bloom has said contains everything of the "highest literary interest" from the Bible is 1/3 the length of the complete Bible. So at least 2/3 of the Bible is not worth reading! (But even then I still found "Testament" unreadable! Still too much tedium was left in. Maybe another reduction by half needed?)

    Quote Originally Posted by andave_ya View Post
    But the rest of it...especially the gospels...are enough to bring one to his knees...
    Christians are doing a very bad job, then, in getting their message across to the modern, non-Christian reader of literature. Imagine if Shakespeare had made the first 600 000 words of his complete works unreadable! The playhouses would have been empty. The puritans would not have needed to close them by force. The Bible usually gets into lists of canonical literature, but has to share equal billing with Shakespeare, Dickens, and another dozen or say great writers. Who on Earth would read the Bible, cover to cover, when they could read Shakespeare instead...

    P.S. I'm still reading the "100 minute Bible". Even that's a bit tedious - but I can manage a page a day, so should finish it before Xmas...

    Quote Originally Posted by FalseReality View Post
    Here you go. This should be easier.


    http://www.thebricktestament.com/
    "Easiness" is not the main requirement. I'm looking for "reasonable aesthetic value". "Brick art" is too derivative and banal. Also, like the original, it "uses too many words": "She gave birth to a second child, Abel, the brother of Cain."

  14. #59
    Registered User Morden's Avatar
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    Nobody has mentioned The Jefferson Bible. Heavily redacted according to Jefferson's own sensibilities, it might be worth a look for people who want only the "nice" parts and the parts that a more or less modern person could find worthwhile.
    "I am thinking of aurochs and angels, the secret of durable pigments, prophetic sonnets, the refuge of art. And this is the only immortality you and I may share, my Lolita." -- Vladimir Nabokov

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    So Bloom have published some essential Biblical texts. And? The essential of Keats wont have even near 1/3 of his complete poetry, Dickens even less,Melville will see even Moby Dick butchered for what is essential and only pleasing. No whale anatomy! Even Shakespeare won't have all his work selected. Even Dante, altough this one have the luck to see almost only of his essential alive, thanks to time.
    And if you feel pleasure reading Shakespeare, fine. A considerable ammount of people felt pleasure reading the bible or do you think the kind of religious exaltation it can provoke was not pleasant? And dont you think there is people who find reading dramatic verse annoying?

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