She forgot ...

[zowie86]

Could anyone tell me the context and meaning of the following lines?
thanks a lot.


"She forgot
Just at the very moment she should not"
— Haidee in Don Juan.

[Pryderi Agni]

Maybe irony??? Or just well-mannered fun? (Kinda odd, since it's Byron...)

[zowie86]

Thanks for your reply.

But, checking Don Juan, I failed to find the above quotation, anyway.

It's supposed to be "She forgot / That at the moment Juan knew it not", right?

Still looking for its possible interpretation...

[mayneverhave]

Let's look at a hypothetical situation.

Say a woman (Marlene) gathers all her friends: Frank, John, Joseph, and Annabelle, and informs them that she has cancer, and that she has only been given a few months to live.

Later when she's at a social obligation with her other friend, Don Juan, she casually references her impending death, forgetting that Juan was not there when she informed everyone, and therefore does not, at the moment, know.

At this point, Marlene would have "forgot that at the moment Juan knew it not."

Since I have not read Don Juan, you'll have to apply this to whatever is going on in the narrative of the poem; whatever "it" is that Juan knew not.

[stlukesguild]

You may get more of a response if you set this in the context. Where exactly in Don Juan is this short quote to be found?

[zowie86]

Thank you for your reply. I never expected so many helpful answers.

The quotation is from a translation of a Chinese poem by W. J. B. Fletcher.
The original is:
锦瑟
李商隐
锦瑟无端五十弦，
一弦一柱思华年。
庄生晓梦迷蝴蝶，
望帝春心托杜鹃。
沧海月明珠有泪，
蓝田日暖玉生烟。
此情可待成追忆，
只是当时已惘然。

I. THE INLAID PSALTERY
The inlaid psaltery fifty chords has; and I know no reason why.
And every chord and every nut vibrates like youth's fond memory.
Sedately born, in morning's dream like butterflies we madly fly.
Then passion gazing on our lord yearns with the cuckoo's wailing cry.

When on the sea the moon is bright, hard pearls are born like tears of woe.
On Fertile Fields where shone the Sun, the gem is lost in mists below.
Such thoughts as these had I recalled, my tears had not such cause to flow.
But ah! transported from myself, I then forgot what now I know!

Notes:—Inlaid psaltery: — "The Ya-se (雅瑟) has 23 chords, the Sung-se (颂瑟)25 chords. When inlaid with precious stones such are called Pao-se (宝瑟); when inlaid with lines like embroidery, they are called Chin-se (锦瑟)(周礼乐器图).
"Pearls like tears": -- " In the outer southern seas there are mermaids (鲛人), who can weave under the sea, and whose tears are pearls" (博物志).
"Fertile Fields": -- "Indigo fields produce gems," i.e., women become pregnant.
"I then forgot": -- cf.
"She forgot
Just at the very moment she should not"
— Haidee in Don Juan.
(translated and noted by W. J. B. Fletcher)


There are more than ten interpretations of the original Chinese poem among Chinese scholars as there are at least five ambiguous allusions in it. Fletcher just noted two here, with one wrongly undertood.

The five allusions are probably: ( I say "probably" as the poet is dead, nobody knows what he intended to say; even if he were alive and told us what he had wanted to say, what he did write might not mean what he would like to say.)

1. Emperor Tai asked White Lady to play the 50-stringed zither. Saddened by the music, he ordered her to stop but was refused. Then he broke the zither into a 25-stringed one.
2. Once Zhuangzi (used to be spelt Chuang-tzǔ) dreamed of being a butterfly and when he woke up, he could not tell whether it was him who had dreamed of being a butterfly, or it was the butterfly who had dreamed of being him.
3. King Wang (Wangdi), ordered his prime minister Bieling to turn away floods, and then had an affair with his wife. Regretting what he did, King Wang died soon and his spirit changed into the cuckoo, wailing with blood in its mouth.
4. In the outer southern seas there are merfolk, who can weave under the sea, and whose tears are thought to become pearls.
5. Lantian, a hill in Lantian County in Shaanxi Province, is said to have abundance of jade. When the jade is heated by warm sun, vapor-like clouds rise.



I also translated the Chinese poem into English, but I don't know whether you would like to take a look. . .


But, first, PLEASE help me find out what Fletcher probably meant, OK?

Merci...





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[JBI]

For a Chinese school student, exactly how hard is that poem, and at what age would the average middle-class student be expected to be able to understand that?

[zowie86]

For a Chinese school student, exactly how hard is that poem, and at what age would the average middle-class student be expected to be able to understand that?

Be aware that Fletcher's translation is for English natives, old and young, especially for English scholars. NOT for Chinese students only.



The ambiguity probably lies in that the poet Li Shangyin wrote to express his own ideas in poetic form, hoping not to be understood for political reasons or so ever. Thus, there are many interpretations about his poems, without an overwhelming one.





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