Racism

[MarkBastable]

It was not Hitler as a single person who did all these things, it were the nazis. He was replacable by any other of his kind.

I'm not so sure about the second of those assertions. I think that most broad sociopolitical movements require not only the right circumstances to give force to the thing, but also a figure who can focus and represent that imperative. So - for instance - in order to happen at that time, the civil rights movement needed Martin Luther King. Without Gandhi, political change in the sub-continent would not have taken place when it did. Had Pol Pot died in childhood, things would have been very different around his neighbourhood.

There's no way of telling for sure about this of course - but I do believe that the history of Germany would have been different (though not necessarily less fraught) without Hitler.

[Emil Miller]

Like you I rely on years of experience to reach my conclusions. And I'm pretty sure about that one..

So, with no knowledge whatsoever of the circumstances surrounding the event, you are "pretty sure about that one."
Which pretty much negates your line of reasoning altogether.

[MarkBastable]

So, with no knowledge whatsoever of the circumstances surrounding the event, you are "pretty sure about that one."
Which pretty much negates your line of reasoning altogether.

Call it an uncanny sixth sense informed by a shrewd idea of how you might interact with a bartender.

[Emil Miller]

Call it an uncanny sixth sense informed by a shrewd idea of how you might interact with a bartender.

So suddenly the facts can be dispensed with and replaced by something as nebulous as your sixth sense. I wonder how much of it has informed your participation in this thread so far.

[Niamh]

Can we please refrain from discussing each other and discuss the topic at hand, ie Racism. Everyone is intitled to their own opinion on the matter and if their beliefs clash with yours, that does not make them anymore unworthy.
Thank you

[amarna]

so I look forward to agreeing with you

You made my day.

I'm not so sure about the second of those assertions. I think that most broad sociopolitical movements require not only the right circumstances to give force to the thing, but also a figure who can focus and represent that imperative. So - for instance - in order to happen at that time, the civil rights movement needed Martin Luther King. Without Gandhi, political change in the sub-continent would not have taken place when it did. Had Pol Pot died in childhood, things would have been very different around his neighbourhood.

There's no way of telling for sure about this of course - but I do believe that the history of Germany would have been different (though not necessarily less fraught) without Hitler.

Yes, with my second assertion I was skating on pretty thin ice. What-if-speculations on historical events are always arguable for nobody can verify them empirically. I assume that there is a complex interdependency between social structures and individual actions, but that it is depending on the parameters of the specific environment (institutions, political constellation, mental atmosphere, economic and financial lobbyism and so on), what kind of individual will be able to climb the ladder of political success.

[MarkBastable]

So suddenly the facts can be dispensed with and replaced by something as nebulous as your sixth sense. I wonder how much of it has informed your participation in this thread so far.

Not at all. My uncanny sixth sense is very specific. And also infallible. I rely on the evidence of my sixth sense, just as you, apparently, rely on the evidence of your first sense.

[Emil Miller]

Not at all. My uncanny sixth sense is very specific. And also infallible. I rely on the evidence of my sixth sense, just as you, apparently, rely on the evidence of your first sense.

My dictionary gives the words "sixth sense" as the power of intuition.
Here's the same dictionary's definition of intuition: immediate perception by the mind without reasoning.

[Nightshade]

I had all these good intentions about staying out of this but what can you do .
1) Did we really need to stumble into the realms of Godwin's Law? Well since we have I am evoking it.
2)

If he holds prejudiced views he holds them for asians, Indians, muslims, and jews and others. But it's only blacks that have this cultural dysfuntionality. .

Umm yeah not 100% sure if this is what you were getting at, but Virgil if you are saying what it appears to me you are saying, that is that only Black people feel oppressed and that they are the only ones who feel the 'yoke of racism' and that in point of fact that it is no more than a construct in their minds that they are using as a convenient excuse. I am going to have to disagree with you there. I think that alot of different races ARE conscious of it, but it goes deeper. If you want to look at subcultures you really need to think why these subcultures are shaped the way they are and have the attitudes to themselves and others as they do.

The black communities were historically seen as the lowest of the low, even in their own countries. Where as the muslim countries, India, and the orient all had a position in the olden days, and a measure of respect for the power they wielded. es not forget that alot of things that modern 'western' culture is based on came from these countries. So they were seen as more intelligent races than blacks, though they were frequently seen as morally weaker than ' The Great White Christian'. And though we may not like to think it alot of these outdated and indeed deliberately spurned ideas and ideals have left traces in teh way our modern day society is constructed and thinks.

Racism does cause poverty, simply because if people think you are more likely to steal from them, slack off or be lazy - or cheat, steal or lie to them, they are NOT going to give you a job where you can earn enough to drag yourself out of poverty. And poverty begets poverty. And if you want to know the true curse of racism that is it. Because even though supposedly we live in a 'multicultural society' it wasnt that long ago that racism was officially institutionalized and the people who were victims of that had children in poverty, who couldn't leave the poverty they were trapped in because of a lack of opportunities (partially because they dont have the qualifications or the opportunities of people who went the better more expensive schools ) and they in turn get minimum wage jobs and cycle continues. That is not to say that there are not people who got out of the cycle of course there are, but they do not stand as examples of the norm rather they are the amazing achievements. Not that many people of any race have the determination,
willpower and plain good luck to 'change their destinies' as it were.

[Saladin]

Before people rush to judgement I believe the news mis-reported this story initially. He was not arrested for breaking into his own home. He was arrested for disorderly conducted - he was verbally berating the police when then simply asked for identification. The police had twice asked him to stop with the insults and just show identification, and he just carried on. And while the main cop at the scene was white, along side him were a hispanic officer and a black officer. All the cops have denounced Gates' conduct. This is not a case of racial profiling, but of a disorderly person that refuse to cooperate.

I agree with you on this. Its typical media to portray it as an act of racial profiling.

Sadly enough these days some people use the race-card to much. It starts to be like that boy who cried "Wolf, wolf".

[Virgil]

I had all these good intentions about staying out of this but what can you do .
1) Did we really need to stumble into the realms of Godwin's Law? Well since we have I am evoking it.
2)



Umm yeah not 100% sure if this is what you were getting at, but Virgil if you are saying what it appears to me you are saying, that is that only Black people feel oppressed and that they are the only ones who feel the 'yoke of racism' and that in point of fact that it is no more than a construct in their minds that they are using as a convenient excuse. I am going to have to disagree with you there. I think that alot of different races ARE conscious of it, but it goes deeper. If you want to look at subcultures you really need to think why these subcultures are shaped the way they are and have the attitudes to themselves and others as they do.

The black communities were historically seen as the lowest of the low, even in their own countries. Where as the muslim countries, India, and the orient all had a position in the olden days, and a measure of respect for the power they wielded. es not forget that alot of things that modern 'western' culture is based on came from these countries. So they were seen as more intelligent races than blacks, though they were frequently seen as morally weaker than ' The Great White Christian'. And though we may not like to think it alot of these outdated and indeed deliberately spurned ideas and ideals have left traces in teh way our modern day society is constructed and thinks.

Racism does cause poverty, simply because if people think you are more likely to steal from them, slack off or be lazy - or cheat, steal or lie to them, they are NOT going to give you a job where you can earn enough to drag yourself out of poverty. And poverty begets poverty. And if you want to know the true curse of racism that is it. Because even though supposedly we live in a 'multicultural society' it wasnt that long ago that racism was officially institutionalized and the people who were victims of that had children in poverty, who couldn't leave the poverty they were trapped in because of a lack of opportunities (partially because they dont have the qualifications or the opportunities of people who went the better more expensive schools ) and they in turn get minimum wage jobs and cycle continues. That is not to say that there are not people who got out of the cycle of course there are, but they do not stand as examples of the norm rather they are the amazing achievements. Not that many people of any race have the determination,
willpower and plain good luck to 'change their destinies' as it were.

Holding views and institutionalized racism are two different things. Everyone holds views on everything, on whether you have tattoos or wear jeans with holes in it. That is relatively meaningless in the the nature of hiring and promotion. You don't live in the US, so I don't know how to persuade you. All one has to do is look at how successful all other ethnic groups, even those that people are prejudiced towards, in the US are in comparison to African Americans, and that goes for the blacks that come from the carribean and Africa.

I agree with you on this. Its typical media to portray it as an act of racial profiling.

Sadly enough these days some people use the race-card to much. It starts to be like that boy who cried "Wolf, wolf".

Thank you Saladin. The race card is repeatedly played in the US and the reason for that is there is political power that is gained. Race hucksters such as Jesse Jackson, get revered as some sort of leader and through playing on white guilt get all sorts of financial and political gains. The sociologist that has been extra ordinary in documenting this and pointing it out is Shelby Steele. Here is one of his articles: http://www.cir-usa.org/articles/156.html. I highly recommend looking him up and reading him.

[Drkshadow03]

Oh how did I miss this. Obviously you're in a mentality that rationalizes outcomes. You seem to hold the outdated notion that has this equation: Racism causes poverty which leads to sub cultural dysfunctions. Baloney. Sub cultural dysfunctions cause poverty. The average white person doesn't give a damn about keeping blacks down. If he holds prejudiced views he holds them for asians, Indians, muslims, and jews and others. But it's only blacks that have this cultural dysfuntionality. Just look at the number of black men who have spent time in jail. I think it's something like one in three have commited some sort of crime that sent them to jail. Between unmarried mothers, drug use, crime, high school drop out rates, you couldn't devise a more dysfunctional set of variables to cause poverty.

It's not obvious at all what my viewpoints are from the post, actually. If you read the quote in context that you’re responding to, I was merely pointing out the contradictions of YOUR assertions. I said nothing about my views concerning the relationship between poverty and race. You’re the one that implied in the last forty years racism hasn’t prevented African Americans from prospering back in post # 49:

“Their claim that racism has held them back, while once true, just doesn't square with the facts of the last forty years.”

While simultaneously arguing that they are plagued by issues of poverty and education, despite all this so-called evidence that nothing is holding them back:

“I believe the race consciousness will end when African-Americans break out of the problems that have plagued them and do not have the high crime rates, go on to high college graduation rates, and are prosperous.”


In other words, I never said anything about my own viewpoint. I simply noted that there is something contradictory in implying that the last forty years have shown racism hasn't held African Americans back, but then also claiming huge issues of poverty plague African American communities.

Compare the results of blacks from carribean and african countries? They don't have anywhere near this generational poverty. Once they out grow their immigration growing pains, they do quite well. There is a sub cultural problem with american blacks.

It’s your responsibility to provide actual references/statistics with citations. Burden of proof is on you.

Show me. Show me.

I did show you. I provided two links highlighting examples of institutional racism (one in a country club, the other in the publishing industry) that also serve as evidence supporting the existence of institutional racism. Ironically and unsurprisingly you failed to place them in your quoted material from my post, which makes me think you're being a tad disingenuous.

Mortalterror is the only one so far who made any attempt to rebut either example, and was only able to partially rebut the country club example. Nevertheless, denoting the fact that some poor white kids were also included in the exclusion doesn’t exactly disprove there were racist motives; it could’ve been both a class and racial issue. Then it becomes an issue of common sense; I would think it’s a lot easier for the rich white members that jumped out of the pool to notice a bunch of black kids entering rather than looking at bathing suits and saying, “Wait, those aren’t Armani!”

[QUOTE]I can point out all the Equal Opportunity laws, the EEO's in every company that ensures blacks get equal consideration for promotions and hiring, all the law suits that have gone on in the past forty years to ensure this is enforced, the afirmative action that goes on in hiring and college entrences. Today we have a black president, the biggest media star is Opra (and media is a genre that requires visual idnetification), the biggest musical star is Michael Jackson, and there are black CEO at a number of companies. That's on my side of the ledger, what's on yours?[/QUOTE[

Well, for starters the incidents that I linked to that you disingenuously failed to quote are on my "side." Secondly, you’re naming a few select individuals, which at best proves only that a few select individuals have managed to transcend the limitations of racism. Not to mention all these individuals have claimed to experience racism at one point or another in their life (rightly or wrongly), and would agree that institutional racism exists (such as racial profiling), despite their own success (see Obama's comments in the Gates case).

However, I don’t see race and poverty as necessarily the same thing; ironically, contradicting your strawman claim that I held such a view. The African American Middle-class experiences institutional racism, which has nothing to do with poverty. Likewise, just because institutional racism exists doesn't mean blacks and other racial groups aren't at all responsible for some of their own issues.

Oh sure, there are laws addressing these problems. Sometimes they work when they are enforced. Sometimes they don’t; when they are not enforced. And it is always difficult to enforce laws legislating racism, hate-crimes, discrimination, etc. because it's difficult to fully get into a person's head and truly know what caused them to perform a specific action. They were instituted because we have a race-problem, which is inherent in the fact that such laws are needed in the first place. This tells us nothing about whether these laws have successfully ramified racial discrimination one way or the other; it tells us only that attempts have been made to fix the problem.

However, fixing one problem doesn’t fix all the problems. If a person were to announce, “It is wrong to stereotype Jews as cheap money-horders, but I understand why some people can’t stand looking at them since most of them are really ugly.” It is perfectly possible and reasonable to denounce one stereotype, while reifying another. Secondly, the example is more personal racism than institutional. You acknowledge that personal racism exists, so why is it so hard to believe that some institutional racism still lingers in our society? Basically, personal racism and institutional racism feed each other.

Do you live in the real world? I haven't checked your age or your occupation but I would guess you're either a college student or a college professor. Anyone that is a benefit to a business, they will be hired and promoted. It doesn't matter if they're green, orange, or purple. Any group of people, white or asian or any ethnicity, who have those dysfuntions will have the same poverty. All you have to do is look at poor white demographics.

Indeed, poverty is an issue. But racism doesn’t begin and end with issues of poverty. There are plenty of middle-class African Americans who have experienced racism; hell, there are plenty of conservative African Americans who admit to experiencing racism. One example of institutional racism that Africans Americans of the middle-class experience is the phenomenon of “shopping while black.” They did a whole TV show depicting this situation to see how shoppers around such an incident would react (http://www.bvblackspin.com/2009/03/2...true-feelings/ ). Many middle-class African Americans can attest to experiencing this phenomenon.

Your comments about business ignore the problem. People’s ideas of what are “beneficial” shifts with context and personal biases. As in the case of the publishing industry that I linked to in the previous post, which you ignored, they whitewash characters on covers to appeal to what they believe to be a white purchasing public. They are clearly doing it because they believe it will sell more books, that it will be more beneficial for them. It doesn’t make it any less racist.

It isn’t hard to imagine private companies in the deep south not hiring a black person because they don’t believe it would be beneficial to do so. If you have a lot of “personally racist” customers you don’t want to scare business away after all and offend them. Generally any job applicant pool has multiple people that are qualified. It isn't hard to hire a white dude who is equally qualified.

Your faith in people's desire for profit over their aptitude for prejudice and bigotry is naive, and I say that as someone who mostly supports Capitalism, and thinks that, yes, people are often greedy. If people necessarily cared more about profit than arbitrary differences, there wouldn't be a need for most of the wars fought (with the exception of Imperialistic ones that create additional revenue). What profit will be had from war? The fact is even if we removed "institutional racism" from the equation and talked merely about personal racism, which you accept still exists in your previous post, people make dumb personal decisions all the time because of their prejudices that affect their convenience and wallets. There are plenty of people who refuse to shop at certain stores because, "The Jews own it," or "Only Blacks shop there." There are plenty of people who would sacrifice potential business partners or money-opportunities because of personal prejudices.

I have no idea what this means. When I was talking about Gates, I said he was being race conscious. He was thinking in terms of race, not the cop. I think everything that has come out supports that. I don't expect to convince you. I'm sure this notion is locked in for you. I will leave you for the third time with the quote from Thomas Sowell: "If jews had waited for the end of anti semitism to make it in America, they would still be waiting." Do yourself a favor and look up Thomas Sowell: http://www.tsowell.com/.

I don’t know why you keep quoting that at everyone; it supports my arguments more than it does yours. As an upper middle-class Jew whose father has made it in America and who will probably make it in America himself once the economy gets better, I can say with certainty that anti-Semitism still exists and is a problem, completely in agreement with the Sowell quote. Anti-Semitism still exists, but so does racism. And many blacks who have made it in America, the middle-class, still face racism. Institutional racism. They didn't wait for racism to end just as Jews didn't wait for anti-Semitism to end. The irony is I'm not talking about impoverished blacks at all, and that you seem to think that I am.

[ImaginaryFriend]

hi there have been away from the forum for a while due to some problems but am back.

one thing i have noticed is the constant assertion that racism stops blacks from doing well at school and causes unwed mothers.

if racism is to blame then why would blacks be the only minority who fail so much at schools? other groups seem to get on fine.

and how can racism be to blame for the number of unwed mothers? could someone please explain that to me as i honestly cant understand?

these are all down to the individuals involved and their community no one else. it seems like some people would rather act this way and then absolve themselves of all personal responsibility and just blame others.

[Virgil]

hi there have been away from the forum for a while due to some problems but am back.

one thing i have noticed is the constant assertion that racism stops blacks from doing well at school and causes unwed mothers.

if racism is to blame then why would blacks be the only minority who fail so much at schools? other groups seem to get on fine.

and how can racism be to blame for the number of unwed mothers? could someone please explain that to me as i honestly cant understand?

these are all down to the individuals involved and their community no one else. it seems like some people would rather act this way and then absolve themselves of all personal responsibility and just blame others.

I'll respond to Darkshadow when I have more time. But absolutely! Four stars for you.

[Emil Miller]

hi there have been away from the forum for a while due to some problems but am back.

one thing i have noticed is the constant assertion that racism stops blacks from doing well at school and causes unwed mothers.

if racism is to blame then why would blacks be the only minority who fail so much at schools? other groups seem to get on fine.

and how can racism be to blame for the number of unwed mothers? could someone please explain that to me as i honestly cant understand?

these are all down to the individuals involved and their community no one else. it seems like some people would rather act this way and then absolve themselves of all personal responsibility and just blame others.

I would like to agree with you but, without knowing where you live, how can I be sure who I am talking to? This silly, childish habit of hiding behind pointless pseudonyms makes it impossible to communicate effectively with contributors to this or any other thread