Prostitution

[The Atheist]

Thank you and have a nice day,
Nightshade

Good point.

Given the direction of the thread, I'll just restructure my other posts to finish up with this, which is the nub of the problem:

As I said before, prostitution epitomizes vulgarity; ....

This is subjective opinion only and I don't agree with it at all. It's simply an a priori assumption, based on a morality I have no wish to embrace. As it's the cornerstone of your argument, there's nothing else to discuss.

[Nightshade]

Ok I have a point: Prostitution is known as the world's oldest profession, right?
SO Does anyone belive it can be irradicated? Should it be? Does it in fact provide a vital role to society though many may find it distasteful?
I dont know the answers they are just question points that came to mind.

[Taliesin]

Max Weber once argued that Protestantism and particularly Calvinism gave us the work ethic required for capitalism. However, at the end of his immortal essay, in a supreme pathos for humanity, he lamented the erosion of religion and foreboded the autonomy of capitalism.

Richard Sennnett, in his seminal work The Corrosion of Character, took this trend one step further than Weber. He argued that not only has the source of our work ethic, religion, eroded, but the work ethic itself, and the very thing we call "character," are quickly vanishing. He argues that the Fordist work ethic is being replaced by a new regime of flexible accumulation, in which risk-taking, chance, and simply being available to move to a new job are largely what determine success in the job market.

So you see, The Atheist, that the very religion that you renounce gave you your capitalist society. In fact, an extreme form of the religion you renounce -- Calvinism -- perhaps gave you your computer. While religion had its faults, it had some kind of culture to it, in which a work ethos and ethical discipline were thoroughly developed. While a return to religion is not the solution, we still need culture to correct the maladies of our time -- we need to take the good from religion and leave the bad. And people need the humility to accept some of these teachings as law, since, after all, it is the best that has been thought or said. Who are you in comparison?

By legalizing prostitution, we will only contribute to the maladies of modern culture, which Weber and Sennnett identify through their life-long research. We simply need something to teach us ethical discipline, because it is shown by sociology that when left to our own resources we, as a people, are too stupid to be disciplined.

Besides, legalizing incest is not a far cry away from legalizing prostitution. By weltanschauung's logic, incestual sex hurts no one so long as birth control (or sterilization for sure measure) are employed.


.

You know, I am just substituting prostitution with homosexuality in your post, and you, sir/madam, creep me out.
Also, Calvinism is responsible for a terrible anti-humanistic, masochistic, work-hating (yes, work-hating - by making work a punishment you take all the joy out of working) worldview. Occasionally I think that it is a curse.
I like to think that it was not only the god-damned Calvinism but also, for example, Humanism, Enlightenment, Positivism, Pragmatism etc which are responsible for my computer. So saying that if we start to go into conflict with the religious/calvinist worldview, we are on the swift course to hell, because that's the system all our society is based on is ignoring that we also have a bunch of pragmatic, humanist, utilitarian, rationalist principles that also uphold our society.

It seems that we have two camps here: "Sex is sacred!" and "Legalize prostitution!"
It just dawned on me that there is a wonderful compromise between those two camps, with a long historical tradition: Sacred prostitution!
It has a long tradition in Mesopotamia, after all, so why couldn't modern religion learn a bit and carry on the ancient and proud tradition of temple prostitution?
Inanna of the Hosts! Why didn't I think of this earlier? Quick! Does anybody know the e-mail of the Pope? I think I have an interesting suggestion to make.

[ktm5124]

You know, I am just substituting prostitution with homosexuality in your post, and you, sir/madam, creep me out.

I support gay marriage. I have gay friends. Some of my favorite writers were gay. I'm not against homosexuality.

A lot of what I have posted in this thread has been ironic melodrama Everyone was arguing for legalizing prostitution so I thought I would play devil's advocate I am unsure of my real stance, though I may actually lean towards the position I took in this thread; if I am on the fence then I sway towards keeping it illegal. What I said does resonate with me.

And the "substitution" you made of homosexuality for prostitution doesn't work because there is nothing vulgar about homosexuality; what is vulgar about love? Even if you're not against prostitution, you probably have a low opinion of it, whereas you do not have a low opinion of homosexuality. These are the objective differences.

So saying that if we start to go into conflict with the religious/calvinist worldview, we are on the swift course to hell, because that's the system all our society is based on is ignoring that we also have a bunch of pragmatic, humanist, utilitarian, rationalist principles that also uphold our society.

I never said that. Where did I ever mention hell? I am not even religious, although I have a lot of respect for it.

I used Arnold's definition of culture as the best that has been thought or said. This includes all of those humanist, utilitarian, rationalist principles that you speak of.

The thing we can learn from religion, though, is how good it is at fostering ethical discipline. This is what I meant when I said "take the good and leave the bad". I think we should learn from it to create a strong modern culture that maintains that same moral and ethical discipline. Things like work ethic; kindness to your neighbors, peers, and co-workers; charity; strong families; appreciation for arts and education, etc.

[The Atheist]

Ok I have a point: Prostitution is known as the world's oldest profession, right?
SO Does anyone belive it can be irradicated? Should it be? Does it in fact provide a vital role to society though many may find it distasteful?
I dont know the answers they are just question points that came to mind.

I'm pretty sure there's strong evidence that removal of prostitution would clamp a large pressue valve on certain sexual practices which would ultimately blaze into social problems. The link between sexual violence and availability of parn is now completely established, and it's not drawing a long bow to link prostitution with porn.

Knowing many hookers and the behaviour and sexual requests of their "clients", I think it's pretty likely, myself.

Inanna of the Hosts! Why didn't I think of this earlier? Quick! Does anybody know the e-mail of the Pope? I think I have an interesting suggestion to make.

[Taliesin]

I support gay marriage. I have gay friends. Some of my favorite writers were gay. I'm not against homosexuality.

A lot of what I have posted in this thread has been ironic melodrama Everyone was arguing for legalizing prostitution so I thought I would play devil's advocate I am unsure of my real stance, though I may actually lean towards the position I took in this thread; if I am on the fence then I sway towards keeping it illegal. What I said does resonate with me.

And the "substitution" you made of homosexuality for prostitution doesn't work because there is nothing vulgar about homosexuality; what is vulgar about love? Even if you're not against prostitution, you probably have a low opinion of it, whereas you do not have a low opinion of homosexuality. These are the objective differences.

I know, but any arguments against gay marriage (and gay people in
general) are of the type "it would destroy our civilization" (well, except the "it's against my religion" and "yuck" arguments which are just outright ridiculous)

By the way, I think I don't have low opinion of all kinds of prostitutes - I think that, for example, courtesans from different cultures do have an air of respectability and style.

I never said that. Where did I ever mention hell? I am not even religious, although I have a lot of respect for it.

I used Arnold's definition of culture as the best that has been thought or said. This includes all of those humanist, utilitarian, rationalist principles that you speak of.

The thing we can learn from religion, though, is how good it is at fostering ethical discipline. This is what I meant when I said "take the good and leave the bad". I think we should learn from it to create a strong modern culture that maintains that same moral and ethical discipline. Things like work ethic; kindness to your neighbors, peers, and co-workers; charity; strong families; appreciation for arts and education, etc.

Anyhow, sorry for misinterpreting your words, but I think I now understand better what you meant - did you mean that if we legalize prostitution, people's sense of moral discipline will weaken, causing generally bad things elsewhere? And that religion in general is good at maintaining that sort of discipline?
If I understood you correctly this time, I can't help but to feel a sort or Victorian thinking here - we're all morally upright people since we don't allow prostitution like those folks there but we still frequent prostitutes, only we do it underground - it feels like shoving the problem under the carpet. Of course, if the society has high standards then people can aspire to follow those standards but it also creates a lot of stress when people fail to do so and people become more neurotic compared to a more lax society. I think.



Also, we have the possibility to check whether the hypothesis holds water - Atheist, you seem to live in a society where they allow such things that weaken people's moral discipline - can you see any effects of it? Is the level of divorces, orphans, abortions, junkies, criminals etc higher than in other countries with a similar background?

[The Atheist]

Also, we have the possibility to check whether the hypothesis holds water - Atheist, you seem to live in a society where they allow such things that weaken people's moral discipline - can you see any effects of it? Is the level of divorces, orphans, abortions, junkies, criminals etc higher than in other countries with a similar background?

You can't compare country with country, but in the cases of Holland and a few Euro countries, now plus NZ, we can see the results of legalisation in the change of morals with the countries, albeit over a short term. So far, no adverse effects have shown up, and there is anecdotal evidence that crime is reduced.

It's still too early to tell for sure, but society hasn't shown any signs of falling apart. Holland appears to show some very positive results from their liberal attitude to drugs & sex, but proving the causality isn't easy.

[ktm5124]

OK, so I am going to approach this topic seriously (as opposed to melodramatically as before). The Atheist, I apologize for being a bit obnoxious earlier on. By the way, I don't mean to argue this ad nauseam; I have a continuing interest in the debate, especially since I am tentative in my position and could be swayed either way.

I think the real reason I lean against prostitution (partly outlined by my previous posts) is because I fear the effect that mass culture has on arts and literature. I think we see it already in how sky-high tickets to the theatre can be, compared to tickets to the movies. Also, we see it in the decline of popularity of poetry. I believe the root of this is that the tastes of society, at large, are not intellectually, culturally, and ethically sophisticated enough to uphold the arts and literature on a more popular level. I realize this is sounds a bit elitist, but I don't know how to put it in any other way.

I see prostitution as one of those things that could indirectly contribute to this mentality -- the under-appreciation of arts and literature. Much like pulp fiction and Hollywood movies, prostitution is a short-term pleasure; it might encourage the mindset of squandering money for such transient purposes rather than saving it for long-term gains. Of course, it is also far worse than these things I have compared it to, as you are selling not only your money but your body.

I agree, though, that one-night stands resemble prostitution too closely to draw a distinct line between the two. It is clear, then, that keeping prostitution illegal is more about setting an example and sending a message to society, than actually trying to get rid of prostitution or similar practices. We can set this example and send a message through education, as well, but I don't think that is sufficient; I'm not sure how easy it would be to incorporate information about prostitution in a school curriculum, in any case.

weltanschauung, I encourage you to reproduce your PM here, since it is a trenchant reply to this issue that I raise. I would like to hear others' thoughts as well. I think that I am now putting myself in much more concrete terms (now that I am being completely serious) in citing my concern for arts and literature and other such tastes in relation to culture.

[The Atheist]

[QUOTE=ktm5124;757245]OK, so I am going to approach this topic seriously (as opposed to melodramatically as before). The Atheist, I apologize for being a bit obnoxious earlier on. By the way, I don't mean to argue this ad nauseam; I have a continuing interest in the debate, especially since I am tentative in my position and could be swayed either way.[/QUOE]

Fair enough, taken.

Everyone makes mistakes - admitting to them is a bit rarer!

I
I see prostitution as one of those things that could indirectly contribute to this mentality -- the under-appreciation of arts and literature.

Two things: I don't see the link at all, prostitution is about sex & power and I can't see how it affects arts at all. On your basis, all short-term pleasures would detract from arts and we'd be banning restaurant meals, gambling and any forms of gratification.

Secondly, since it's been reasonably well established that legalisation doesn't mean a proliferation of bordellos & hookers, what's going to change? We've had prostitution for thousands of years, during which time the arts have progressed pretty well.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to incorporate information about prostitution in a school curriculum, in any case.

Well, in terms of education the link is that more education lowers STD and teen pregnancy rates, so it certainly works. Not sure teaching kids about hookers at school's likely to happen!

[blazeofglory]

This is a mask or a title given by society; and society is also a masquerade, a bunch of This is really a hard question to answer in point of fact. Man evolutionarily speaking seems a very self centered person and all he does even acts of charity is not out of benevolence or altruism or philanthropy for that matter.

Every act of religious duty is motivated or instigated by a desire of securing a place in heaven, another world of luxury or sumptuousness or anything we do in the name of social welfare or philanthropy is out of the motive to earn popularity.

Then why is not man’s act is selfish ideas and ideologue or idée fixe. Prostitution is a tag on persons. Every one of us is sneakily a prostitute, as we have glands of sex that secrets sexual hormone. It is totally a biological content, and we kind of philosophizing or moralizing the issue.
In fact man evolutionarily an animal and we through books of religions is divinizing or giving man a status that is higher than animals.