Burka

[Nightshade]

That ISNT why they are tradtional. The real reaosn they are tradtional is they are more common sense in the desert especially in olden times. If you think about it on the arab piniusula, most men ( well natives anyway) also cover their heads. and the badoui men also cover their faces in a lot of cases Ive heard of. ITt minimusises chances of dehydration. That other reasons were added to this and that it because seen as a symbol of muslim women is completly secondary if you want to go into the real reason its tradtional.

[weltanschauung]

nightshade, there's no way anyone will ever convince me that a burka is used to prevent dehydration
but hey, whatever floats your boat, some like to live in denial to have a better night of sleep.

[LMK]

I also do not think (at least I hope not) that fundamentally the reason for the burka is that muslim women are secondary. I understood that it was because they were special that they would be seen only by family and perhaps very close friends of the family.

This is not too unlike orthodox Jewish women who cover hair after marriage, with a wig, a scarf, snood, etc. not to make them ugly or to make them secondary, but to preserve modesty.

~L

[Mr Endon]

Thank you very much for the great discussion. Sorry, I haven't been here for a while, but dissertation + internetlessness is a deadly combination.

I would really like to defend the dressing of a burka (or niqab, or whatever it is called: I mean the one that only leaves the eyes uncovered) in a country like France, but I can't bring myself to. Here's why: imagine someone goes naked to the street. That can't be. Why? Because our culture says it is inappropriate. Our culture also says that men and women should be equal. The idea behind the burka is that woman is inferior to man, and thus wearing it, be it through choice or not, propagates this idea.

My time's almost up, I'll write it more clearly later, Thor willing. But do you see what I mean? And tell me why I'm wrong, for I'm sure I'm wrong, and yet, and yet.

[Nightshade]

So wait endon do you want a defnece for face covering in western countries? I am not totally for it myself but I can say this, the only pointy you could really go for is that cultures change and adapt 100 years ago men and womend were NOT equal, the clothes we wera to day would be concidered indecent etc. By adopting people into your culture the culture both sides should give and alter. The culture that is accepting them should begin to show signs of multiculturalism and the people being adopted should be understand accpting and willing to bend with the culture they seek to join.
I think the main fear within muslim communities is when you give someothing they will take a mile. SO say you say no face cover, next it will be no headcover.. etc. Frankly I don't see how they can ban head covers though unless they went whole hog and banned all religios symbols.

[LMK]

This is the point that I tried to make only a couple of posts ago, perhaps I should delve deeper.

First, our culture (US) does not require hair covering (not head, but hair) yet married Jewish woman who practice Tzniut, do all over the US and the world. It is a choice, but for all who I know a meaningful one and for the most part wigs are worn so that you don't even know.

Second, our culture does not require tattos or body piercing, but allows it, not out of religious freedom, but a persons freedom of self expression.

Believe it or not in the small town, where I live, in the middle of the US and there are many muslim women (and younger girls) who dress modestly (usually wide legged trousers and tunics or floor length dresses and always with the hijab;head and neck scarf).

If it is their choice, I support them.

I certainly hope that the government will not get into my life to the point of telling me, "this is not what everyone else is wearing, so you can't wear it." What's next, our hair cuts? Will we be wearing uniforms?

I've actually thought some of the pant suits were attractive, so if I chose to wear them, it would have nothing to do with religion.

It would not surprise me to see a woman walk down the street in a burka. Sure at first people would look because it is unusual and we would like to get to know what is new to us, but then...hmph...whatever so there are burka's floating down the sidewalk.

As long as it is by choice I stand behind the wearer's right to wear it, for religious purposes, modesty, embarassment, or whatever other reason compelled the wearer to the choice.

~L

[weltanschauung]

This is the point that I tried to make only a couple of posts ago, perhaps I should delve deeper.

First, our culture (US) does not require hair covering (not head, but hair) yet married Jewish woman who practice Tzniut, do all over the US and the world. It is a choice, but for all who I know a meaningful one and for the most part wigs are worn so that you don't even know.

Second, our culture does not require tattos or body piercing, but allows it, not out of religious freedom, but a persons freedom of self expression.

Believe it or not in the small town, where I live, in the middle of the US and there are many muslim women (and younger girls) who dress modestly (usually wide legged trousers and tunics or floor length dresses and always with the hijab;head and neck scarf).

If it is their choice, I support them.

I certainly hope that the government will not get into my life to the point of telling me, "this is not what everyone else is wearing, so you can't wear it." What's next, our hair cuts? Will we be wearing uniforms?

I've actually thought some of the pant suits were attractive, so if I chose to wear them, it would have nothing to do with religion.

It would not surprise me to see a woman walk down the street in a burka. Sure at first people would look because it is unusual and we would like to get to know what is new to us, but then...hmph...whatever so there are burka's floating down the sidewalk.

As long as it is by choice I stand behind the wearer's right to wear it, for religious purposes, modesty, embarassment, or whatever other reason compelled the wearer to the choice.

~L

i dont really think its their choice, because their families require that they follow tradition, tradition which had its genesis back when they where in ziniguistan or whatever the hell. and the origin of the tradition also bothers me, because with no exceptions, all traditions are mysogenous, and they are all based in that little lovely passege of the bible that says that eve corrupted adam and thats why our world sucks now.

[Nightshade]

i dont really think its their choice, because their families require that they follow tradition, tradition which had its genesis back when they where in ziniguistan or whatever the hell. and the origin of the tradition also bothers me, because with no exceptions, all traditions are mysogenous, and they are all based in that little lovely passege of the bible that says that eve corrupted adam and thats why our world sucks now.

Are you saying all society traditions in the world are based on the bible? The only logical way I can see that happening ( and concidering you disavowed believig in God and/or The abrahamic cannon of religions I highly doubt this is what you are getting it) is that if that story was true. That is Adam and eve were true butmore importantly if teh Flood was true and that from that time everyone had a single base tradtion from whihc they evolved.
On the other side, the different abrahamic religions have diffirent theories or rather versions of the Fall from Eden story. And significantly for this thread the islamic version does NOT blame Eve in anyway. It says they got the idea at the same time and ate the apples at the same time, and that they were both idiots for not thinking before acting and letting themselves be swayed by greed and suggestion.

[billl]

wow, thanks for the interesting info nightshade! i've been skimming over this thread--thanks for your views.

i personally think the burka is a bit much, once someone is at the level where they can do business at a bank, or drive a car--but i'm willing to go along with the whole modesty thing in theory, kind of. but the hijab can be quite fetching, actually--no need to outlaw that...

[LMK]

True, there are places and situations where no choice is involved and that is not what I understood the thread to be addressing. If I am mistaken and we are being asked for opinions about another cultures' decisions to perpetuate what we (who are not apart of that culture) deem as degrading or demeaning, unnecessary or without good cause, then we are sticking our noses in someone else's underwear drawer. I do not know what it is like to live in such a culture and have no foundation from which to formulate an opinion without much more information.

The topic, as I understood it, is if when there is a choice involved should it be allowed?

My response to that is...yes, if it is a choice made by the wearer.

[weltanschauung]

Are you saying all society traditions in the world are based on the bible? The only logical way I can see that happening ( and concidering you disavowed believig in God and/or The abrahamic cannon of religions I highly doubt this is what you are getting it) is that if that story was true. That is Adam and eve were true butmore importantly if teh Flood was true and that from that time everyone had a single base tradtion from whihc they evolved.
On the other side, the different abrahamic religions have diffirent theories or rather versions of the Fall from Eden story. And significantly for this thread the islamic version does NOT blame Eve in anyway. It says they got the idea at the same time and ate the apples at the same time, and that they were both idiots for not thinking before acting and letting themselves be swayed by greed and suggestion.

ocidental ones, yes, with no doubt. every culture has been scared with it at one point or another. this is way off-topic but, the christian religions dont really rely on the historicity of events, and the bible is a collection of vague parables assembled together in a frankenstein manner by the the church, and jesus is just another character in that book, inspired in many other cultures' myths. you say the abrahamic religions have different versions of the fall from eden story, well, i have the quoran but i never read it whole cause its huge and boring, clockwork orange chanting, but i cant contest what youre saying because you could be right since im not sure. HOWEVER, what i see happening everyday in the muslim world is FAR from the egalitarian situation you describe in their holy texts, which ironically deny completely what their holy book preaches. so in any case, as theory is often something pretty to look at (the big brother maybe), but not to put into practice, much like constitution, i'll stick to my opinion that burka and all its manifestations are traditions perpectualized to degrade and diminish women, with its genesis at primeval male chauvinism sexual projection.

[Nightshade]

OK not to be rude or anything but I am seriously getting bored with this discussion as it isn't really going anywhere at the moment. So we will agree to disagree as to the implication inherent in hijab, burka and all.

[weltanschauung]

fine by me.

[Taliesin]

Thank you very much for the great discussion. Sorry, I haven't been here for a while, but dissertation + internetlessness is a deadly combination.

I would really like to defend the dressing of a burka (or niqab, or whatever it is called: I mean the one that only leaves the eyes uncovered) in a country like France, but I can't bring myself to. Here's why: imagine someone goes naked to the street. That can't be. Why? Because our culture says it is inappropriate. Our culture also says that men and women should be equal. The idea behind the burka is that woman is inferior to man, and thus wearing it, be it through choice or not, propagates this idea.

My time's almost up, I'll write it more clearly later, Thor willing. But do you see what I mean? And tell me why I'm wrong, for I'm sure I'm wrong, and yet, and yet.

Damn the hypocritical society that says that men and women should be equal and yet frowns when men wear skirts!

What I mean is that the norms of the general Western civilization quite often clash at some points - on one hand, yes, the burka might give out a signal going against the equality of men and women -on the other hand, our culture (at least some more progressive parts of it) say that people should be able to dress however they like.
So saying that this or this is a no-no, since it goes against this norm/idea/principle of our society isn't a good argument, since perhaps there are some other norms that commend the thing.

[Niamh]

Damn the hypocritical society that says that men and women should be equal and yet frowns when men wear skirts!

not at all men. There are of course exceptions.