"Bavarian Gentians" is an absolutely great poem and written right around the same time as "Ship of Death."Originally Posted by Paulclem
"Bavarian Gentians" is an absolutely great poem and written right around the same time as "Ship of Death."
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
It is my impression that the primiary emphasis of this poem is meant to be the universal, not the individual, and while saying "I" may not explicitly exclude the universal, it would put more of an emphaish on a personal individual death, rather than that of man as a whole.
I agree that the primary focus of the poem is a universal message, but his situation was one of facing death - a personal situation informing a universal theme. I was just speculating on whether there was a particular reason, death being the most personal event. The question is does it work better as it is?
Virgil, it's one of my very favorite poems of Lawrence's! They erected a statue to commemorate it, in front of the library at the University of Nottingham (I believe). I will have to locate the link. The statue of Lawrence is very beautiful. I think I have a closeup in my own file of just his hands holding the flower blossom...lovely image....
I am doing some research right now and will post more soon. I have some idea on the things you wrote and others as well. For starters I wanted to commenet on this:
Quote by VirgilThis would absolutely fit Lawrence to a T. He was forever acused of being too much the preacher. Also, I didn't find the "we" that unusual; I am trying to locate the entire text now so I can quote it in relation to what we are discussing and the idea of we. I somehow recall something also in Hamlet, when Polonius and Gertrude both speak to Hamlet about death, in the very beginning of the play...the portend is that we all must die someday. Let me go now and look both of these up. I will be back soon.First I think Lawrence is uniting humanity into this, a common shared exeprience. It strikes me as a tone of a preacher with a sermon. Certainly not uncommon for Lawrence to be preaching.
Edit: Back! I can used this same post.
Here is the part of the poem I was thinking about and how it relates to that same idea in the beginning of Hamlet.
If you notice Lawrence stresses the word "we" by his repetition. I am quite sure it was intentional to make the experience of death collective at this time to include all of mankind; in this way, perhaps he would feel less alone in what was to face in him in the coming days.VI
Piecemeal the body dies, and the timid soul
has her footing washed away, as the dark flood rises.
We are dying, we are dying, we are all of us dying
and nothing will stay the death-flood rising within us
and soon it will rise on the world, on the outside world.
We are dying, we are dying, piecemeal our bodies are dying
and our strength leaves us,
and our soul cowers naked in the dark rain over the flood,
cowering in the last branches of the tree of our life.
VII
We are dying, we are dying, so all we can do
is now to be willing to die, and to build the ship
of death to carry the soul on the longest journey.
Last edited by Janine; 07-26-2009 at 03:36 PM.
"It's so mysterious, the land of tears."
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
I would say the particular reason would be to emphasies the universality of it, and shift focus away from the personal asepct of it. And I do not see death as truly being a personal event, it is initself a universal event, for it is collectively experinced by every living organisim in exisince. It is not unique to the individual.
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe
Dark Muse, I am thinking the same thing. Good observation and thought. He does suddenly shift that focus to include all mankind.
I just found the Hamlet quote which falls in line with the Lawrence idea, that it's natural we all should die eventually. Actually, it is his mother who says it to Hamlet.
I think this poem is both universal and also deeply personal to Lawrence; in his own way it connects him to all of humanity.QUEEN GERTRUDE
Good Hamlet, cast thy nighted colour off,
And let thine eye look like a friend on Denmark.
Do not for ever with thy vailed lids
Seek for thy noble father in the dust:
Thou know'st 'tis common; all that lives must die,
Passing through nature to eternity.
Another thing is the fact that Lawrence fought death off for so long and in someway he is finally giving himself over to the his impending death. This was not an easy thing for a person as Lawrence to do; he was used to having control of his existence and being very strong-willed; surviving many a close brush with death before.
Last edited by Janine; 07-26-2009 at 04:48 PM.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
I agree with you both. It is very consciously done on Lawrence's part and it is to emphasize universality.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
His will finally broke. Fighting death is really hard. It's like fighting waves, and then suddenly one comes as in a hurricane by that you just can't fight off.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
I would say the particular reason would be to emphasies the universality of it, and shift focus away from the personal asepct of it. And I do not see death as truly being a personal event, it is initself a universal event, for it is collectively experinced by every living organisim in exisince. It is not unique to the individual.
I agree that it is universally experienced, but clearly Lawrence's focus is tightened because of hs own personal impending death. I think the personal aspect is present in the poem - in his ordering of items upon the boat, for example. He does shift focus to the universal experience, but I wondered if by using the first person technique, he could draw the reader closer to his struggle. I wouldn't presume to suggest it would be better - I was just wondering.
I just think that by making it first person it would make it more specially about his own personal death and shift focus from the universality of it. It may make people be drawn more closely to his own personal struggle, but than that would be putting the primary focus upon him as an individual, rather than upon death as a collective experience. I think the use of the "we" is meant to deflect that very thing from happening, as in his talking about the ship, while he may be putting together his own ship, he is also beseeching others to build their ships.
If he said "I" it would might make people feel his own individual struggle more, but than I think that would distract from his wanting to actually be connected to the "all" of humanity in this experience. I do not think he wants the focus to be placed specifically upon himself.
As I think using the "I" would perhaps draw people closer to HIS struggle but not necessarily draw them closer to their own personal struggle. It would also isolate him from his own wish to experince the universality.
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe
I got the impression from the poem that he tries to retain control of circumstances, but has to accept that he will have to give in to oblivion.
and our soul cowers naked in the dark rain over the flood
cowering in the last branches of the tree of life
The flood image is a powerful one from some of Lawrences stories - eg. The Virgin and the Gypsy. I wonder if he experienced it? It must have resonated powerfully linked as it was to the biblical flood.
As I think using the "I" would perhaps draw people closer to HIS struggle but not necessarily draw them closer to their own personal struggle. It would also isolate him from his own wish to experince the universality.
Perhaps that was his rationale. In this and other poems along the same theme he does exhort for the preparation for death. In "The Houseless Dead" he says,
"Oh pity the dead that were ousted out of life
All unequipped to take the long, long voyage"
It does support his universal message.
Interestingly enough, Lawrence did keep it about himself in his other poem approaching his own death journey,
Another amazingly beautiful poem.Bavarian Gentians
Not every man has gentians in his house
in soft September, at slow, sad Michaelmas.
Bavarian gentians, big and dark, only dark
darkening the daytime, torch-like, with the smoking blueness of Pluto's
gloom,
ribbed and torch-like, with their blaze of darkness spread blue
down flattening into points, flattened under the sweep of white day
torch-flower of the blue-smoking darkness, Pluto's dark-blue daze,
black lamps from the halls of Dis, burning dark blue,
giving off darkness, blue darkness, as Demeter's pale lamps give off
light,
lead me then, lead the way.
Reach me a gentian, give me a torch!
let me guide myself with the blue, forked torch of this flower
down the darker and darker stairs, where blue is darkened on blueness
even where Persephone goes, just now, from the frosted September
to the sightless realm where darkness is awake upon the dark
and Persephone herself is but a voice
or a darkness invisible enfolded in the deeper dark
of the arms Plutonic, and pierced with the passion of dense gloom,
among the splendor of torches of darkness, shedding darkness on
the lost bride and her groom.
-- D. H. Lawrence
Here is the link to the statue at Nottingham University; the other things on the site are very interesting as well.
http://www.dh-lawrence.org.uk/lawrence-statue.html
Last edited by Janine; 07-26-2009 at 09:01 PM.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Do you think it would make a great subject for a piece of art? All those deepening blues and the journey down.
If you notice Lawrence stresses the word "we" by his repetition.
As I think using the "I" would perhaps draw people closer to HIS struggle but not necessarily draw them closer to their own personal struggle. It would also isolate him from his own wish to experince the universality.
What I also find interesting is the dearth of others in the later redemption part of the poem. If we accept that the poem has universal appeal, then his ressurrection/ redemption/ rebirth seems very solitary. The journey in the ship is a solitary one, and that makes sense to me. I wonder if you had any thoughts about the lack of a sense of others in the house. Or is it less a place to be populated than a state? The conventional view of heaven is one that is populated with a sense of being reunited, though there are traditions of solitary formless heavens in some Eastern religions.
I like the statue too.
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