Burka

[Virgil]

According to Google Images this is a burka.



If it's their choice I have no problem either, but really we should move on from this. I can't see why it would be their choice. But to each his/her own.

On a separate note, I find the hajib (head scarf) quite nice. There is a sense of decency and modesty and yet elegance to it.

[MANICHAEAN]

Stargazer. Same thing, different name.
Getting slightly away from the outward garb, I've always been interested in how one determines, (if thats the right word), ones religion. Some have it from childhood, presumably introduced by their family and stay comfortably with it. Others at a later stage question either their initial religion or even religion itself. Some adopt rather exotic beliefs far away from their initial formal spiritual awareness. Yet others make the break completely and then somewhere in their lives cross the road and take up their original faith. At the end of the day is it: logic, instinct or returning back to the comfort of childhood memories?

[Nightshade]

Right I am going to work this a bit backwards. First just to put it in context I wear a hijab. I choose to wea on and no one in my immediate family ( Mum and sisters) wear one anymore.
I have posted pictures before of the whole regialia including NIquabs which I suppose woul be similar to the burka, it doesnt come all in one place as the burka does but it comes a seperate piece. that wraps around the head or is attached by an elastic band. it can cover or show the eyes depending on how it is worn.

Now I have worn Abayas atr times. Mostly it should be admited when I was feeling increadibly lazy ( i have some nice egyptian galabiyah ag=bayahs in denimn and multiculours that are kind of a kaftan dress thiong that goes over your clothes. Or when I was dressed up to the nines for a ladies only do. It means I can wear whatever I want under it and dont have to wear long sleeves and trousers/skirts. if I don't feel like it.

I have even worn a Niquab once or twice but that is under extreme ciricumstances were by I had coloured contacts in and and ful face make up. And it was in Saudi Arabia.
Now in truth my views as the the hijab are controvetial and unorthdox. I do not belive you have to wear one. I believe it is completly cultural. The word you will probably hear most often when you ask a muslim is 'protection'. Its a bit wierd but I think the idea is identifying yourself culturally as part of a certain group means that anyone else of the same group whoi sees you and knows who you are is therby duty bound to help you- if you need it. And I will admit I got loads of freebies in Manchester simply because I was identifyable as a muslim and store owners just gave me drink free a coouple of times, or said you know what have it now and pay next time you come round. For me personally it makes following the other rules of the religion easier. I am the kind of person who given an inch would take a mile so I knew when I came to England I would be keeping my headscarf . Plus its so much a part of me now I feel naked going out without it. So for me I see it as a matter of choice and Protection agaist temptation.
I might add the christians and Jews both had a form of headscarf in earlier religious days. My Catholic grandmother still wears a scarf to church.

I am on the fence on this one. On the one hand i am very intimidated by not being able to see the persons face (anyone could be under there). On the other hand it is tha womans choice. But you dont need to wear that to be dressed modestly, and what does it matter if you are dressed in revealing clothes. That goes more to your fashion sense than your morals or character.

I suppose some people are forced by their families to wear it but hen even if it was banned for example those same people would just be forced to stay indoors by their families.

I certainly think no religion should have more right to open display than others. Basically if we are going to ban one type of religious display we should ban them all. Religion is what is in your heart not on your face or round your neck.

By the way i was assuming you meant the niqab (face covered as well). Am fine with headscarves its just like i said i prefer to see someones face

I have to say I dont really like the niquab I like to be able to see other peoples faces too much. Intrestingly Face covering is banned on the pilgramigge unless you have a face that is so heart stoppingly breath takingly beautifully distracting that your face would interfeer with other people's concentration. And if you think you can justify that then you a full of pride and vanity so you can't wera it.

I'm against it - if someone, in my view, is under the belief that they are somehow disgusting, or shouldn't be looked at for whatever reason, then, quite frankly, somewhere along the lines there was some conditioning that I can't agree with.

The idea of the hijab the modesty etc is all tied into beauty rather than disgust . The more beautiful you are the more you cover up.
Which is why in places lie Egypt the older women when they get to about 60 will stop weraing teh hijab because they say they are hardly going to be what is the word... not attrative or alluring . The literal word goes something along the lines of fantasy enducing. The idea is ( and by the way although it is very rarly seen there is a male equivelent basically waist to just under the knee should be covered in baggy clothes) if you delibritly dress in an enticing ( thats the word) manner then you get double sins. The person who sees you and and has 'improper' thoughts gets their sins and as a prover you get your sins and theirs added. So the modest clothes issue comes into play. The quarantic vesre uses the words beauty, ornamnets and bosoms. The hijab is an extentipon of it. And I suppose the womans crowning glory idea.

In Saudi its very strict, but then on occasion when flying out from the Kingdom to the UK, the speed with which the Saudi women change into Western dress once airborn is quite something.

I have to laugh about that its one of my mums favourite anicdotes of the first two years she worked iun the middle east.
I have to say though have been born there I think that in KSA, its much more a cultural thing then in anyway related to religion. OH I know that it is tided in but the country was noting but desert and wondering tribes just over 100 years ago, and really the Abbayiah, thoab and gutrah were all around long before islam and the tribes inspite of the change in religion they clung to them. Nowadays it may seem odd to the rest of the world but I think its one of the those tghings that is fine is Saudi but if they choose to remove it the minute they leave tan that is excersisnt their choice isnt it?

I think that here in Qatar, they have found the right balance. Head scarfs, covered arms, sharp but modest dressing.

Thats kind of the way I wera it though I would never say I am a sharp dresser.

1)Is it demeaning towards women?
2)Is it a legitimate affirmation of one's culture?
3)Should it be the woman's prerogative?
4)If crucifixes and other religious symbols are banned from certain schools, should the burka be as well?
5)Should the aforementioned religious symbols be banned at all?
?

1) Only if people view it in a deeming light IMO. IT can be empowering just as much as deemening I think it has a lot to do with the womans opinions and those around her. If its orcedthen of course its deemeing espeiclaly if viewed as a away of putting women down or as a tool to deemen women. whihc it can be. But then most things can be. I have heard argumnets about how modern fashion is deemieng. How models, magazines like elle Hello and Ok are all demeening I guess its the eye of the beholder and the doer.

2) As long as it is breaking not any laws and its not ( especially in a contect wher one hasd imigrated serverly interfeering with the ability of the weraer to accept the culture into which they are trying to meld then yes. Tolerance works more that just one way.

3)If you ban one kind of religios symbol then yes by all means ban them all. I think its worng in general to ban any ones expression of such a large part of their identity as religion. Then again if the shcool is the type that cracks doen on any self expression like dyed hair and body piercings/art then perhaps if you want to look at all the students as a body completlyt equally it is an issue that needs looking into harder.
Of course you will still have to allow the students to pray which would still mean differenciating between the main body. Although multifaith/quiet rooms are fairly genericly unreligious. But if there is no enforce uyniform () or at like post 16 education then I think the teenagers are ( by post 16 eduation) to make up their own midns about their religion and beliefs and how they chooce to demonstrate/affirm/declare and generally p[ractise and outwardly share. I think liitle kids are too young to wear a hijab or burkah or niquiab. Having said that I did start weariung a hijab at 12 and a few months but I was wearing it in a middle eastern country and every other girl in my class was already wearing one and I decided to wear one too. All the wrong reasons but I have found right to keep wearing it. So I do so and now I am older I see the point of the teachers my mum and the rest of my family who tried to oppose me weraing it.

!

Also an issue I forgot to bring up has to do with security concerns. I've often thought about how easy it would be for some thief to dress up in a niqab and rob and mug people. This is but a stupid fantasy, but there could be a real issue behind this line of reasoning:

Does the impossibility to identify someone who's wearing a niqab pose a security risk, or at least logistic/bureaucratic problems when it comes to routine ID checks, recognition in CCTV tapes and the like?

Despite what ity looks liek niqabs are fairly flimsy thgings never actually been close enough to a burka to look at it properly, but with teh way national securiuty sissues are nowadays ( and on a uk note with theintroduction of the mandatory national id card including 16 points of dna recogntion and an iris scan) not being able to see most of your face shouldnt be an issue for software.
Actually I rember an old black and white egyptian film forem the days before the fall of the Ottman empoire (pre 1952 this is where face covers and abayah were mandatory by law in areas of egypt) the bank robber escapes dressed as a woman. only to be shot by a woman who realsies that he is moving right under the stuff.

[MANICHAEAN]

Dear Nightshade
Sincere thanks. That was very informative.
Glad you got a chuckle from the Saudia Airline female exodus ritual!

[LMK]

Is it demeaning towards women?
Is it a legitimate affirmation of one's culture?
Should it be the woman's prerogative?
If crucifixes and other religious symbols are banned from certain schools, should the burka be as well?
Should the aforementioned religious symbols be banned at all?

This has been motivated by recent political developments, but I'm sure we can keep politics out of this discussion?

This is a matter of choices. If a woman chooses to live in a place or attend school in a place where certain restrictions exist then yes they should abide by those restrictions (certainly while trying to change them if so inclined). However if there is no restriction and the ban or restriction is random and singles out only religious types of expressions in dress then no, I do not agree.

If symbols are to be banned or restricted simply because they are religious, then sports charms, slogans; bands or music tastes, etc. among other categories should be included as well.

~L

[Taliesin]

I understand that besides the problems with identity, the main issue is protecting the women from their families etc - that wearing it might not be really voluntary for them.
If they were banned from schools and similar institutions, however, what seems problematic to me is how would one enforce it? I mean, if someone broke the rule and wore a burka and was punished for it they would be either a)someone who willingly chose it so punishing her would seem quite undemocratic - government chooses what you wear even though, in this persons case, it doesn't hurt anyone
or
b)someone who was forced to do it by her family - therefore it was not her fault

[LMK]

Absolutely there is a problem with around the world in places that lack egalitarian treatment of women even by their families.

Women who are imprisoned for adultry for being raped! Of course the burka is thrust upon many who might choose otherwise.

My response was solely a hypothetical reply to a general set of questions about opinions where a woman's choice is an option.

I fully understand that there are places where there is no choice and no option.

~L

[Nightshade]

I understand that besides the problems with identity, the main issue is protecting the women from their families etc - that wearing it might not be really voluntary for them.
If they were banned from schools and similar institutions, however, what seems problematic to me is how would one enforce it? I mean, if someone broke the rule and wore a burka and was punished for it they would be either a)someone who willingly chose it so punishing her would seem quite undemocratic - government chooses what you wear even though, in this persons case, it doesn't hurt anyone
or
b)someone who was forced to do it by her family - therefore it was not her fault

Well to play the otherside the easiest way of reinforcing is just to take it off someone who comes into a school wearing one. Of course then you come into conflict with protecction laws. when I was 5 or 6 ( and in saudi arabia) the school regulations stated that your nails had to be so short that they dont cover the tips of your fingers. Its prefferable if ther is no white edge showing at all. My nails grow at a ridicuolus rate and one day my mum had been too busy to cut my nails. and we had an inspection the next day. I was dragged into the headmistress's room held down ( to stop me flincching and hurting myself) by two teachers who used these massive craft scissors to hack off my nails. My mum was actually a teacher but she was only told fait accompli as it were. My nails were only just covering the edge of my fingers.
I still have to cut my fingernails two or three times a week becsuse I can't stand and can't function when they are longer.
Obviously that wouldnt happen in the 'western school' system. but if you relly want to inforce it that is going to have to be the way its done. Holding them down and pull it off. In the eyes of alot of people who wear the burkas then its kind of one and the same. Brutally stampng all over their rights ( their opinion rather than mine) so physically assultng them to seperate them is par the course. And I suppose that once physical forcce is threatend the little islamic getout clause becomes valid and then they can take it off.

[IJustMadeThatUp]

I don't have a problem with people's clothes choices, but it does make me uncomfortable trying to talk to somebody when I can't see their face. That's my problem though isn't it?

[weltanschauung]

I think if it is actually the woman's choice, then I am fine with it.

its NOT choice. its absolutely imposed. and women who dont wear it where they are expected to are punished harshly if not with death.
its ridiculous, mysoginistic, arbitrary, humiliating, but that is exactly the purpose it serves: to ridicule, diminish, submit and humiliate women, so that they wont "tempt" the poor pure men with their "devilish beauties" and "attractives".

[Nightshade]

its NOT choice. its absolutely imposed. and women who dont wear it where they are expected to are punished harshly if not with death.
its ridiculous, mysoginistic, arbitrary, humiliating, but that is exactly the purpose it serves: to ridicule, diminish, submit and humiliate women, so that they wont "tempt" the poor pure men with their "devilish beauties" and "attractives".

I think you are generalising a bit there. Sure it can on occasion be used as a tool to demeen women ( but then most things can) but it definatly can be a choice and by saying it cant you are belittling the women who freely choose to wear it and are proud of the fact they do.

[weltanschauung]

i think not. and i dont think anyone is proud of being humiliated, but they are taught and obliged to believe they are. they dont wear it because its a choice, they wear it because it is required by their "religion" (men).

[Lady Otter]

Sorry for those that disagree, but when believing men wear burkas, too, just maybe, I'd be convinced women might also. The image of men wearing those crippling togs is reminiscent of Chinese women with bound feet.

I've read the Koran, it is quite respectful of women...This is clearly a tribal discussion.

[Niamh]

Welt, in many cases the wearing of a Burka is Cultural, and not religious. And as Nightie pointed out many women do choose to wear them. Yes many are also made to because thats the culture of their homeland. It is not the case for ALL!

[weltanschauung]

but niamh, i understand that, the thing is that it is not the point. it doesnt matter whether it is cultural or religious or whatever the hell, you know? what matters is the reason behind the tradition. and the reason is that women are seen as evil because they inspire feelings of lust in men, therefore they are required to hide themselves in order not to tempt men, you understand what im saying?
the burka is not a tradition because women dont want to tan, or because it makes you cooler under it in a 50degrees celsius weather. it is required so that women are hiden from men's eyes, in order "not to tempt them". the reason behind the tradition is the need to humiliate women in order to submit them.
and it really isnt a fashion choice. theres nothing to do with fashion.