Which other book? Alice in the Wonderlands? Treasure Island? The tales of Hans Christian Andersen? Anyways, until the XVIII century, there is not a specific production of literature for kids (hence La Fontaine or Perrault or 1001 Nights), so many books worked for several age groups.
Yes, but when has there been a published book that has stimulated 6 year olds to adults at the same time. I think it has been a great sharing experience.
The easy route was described by you. It does not take kids to somewhere else, it takes where they already are: They already are into Harry Potter and all the good bits you mention, they do got it. They need not an addult to mediate the reading of Harry Potter, they already do it. So, it is very easy to just go with what the kid knows and not take the responsability to show the kid the options, to create the passion for all literature instead of one book, and use even HP positivelly, as "since you like already reading..."
And no story will have a pull a currently popular book. Specially if the popular book domains every aspect and is actually endangering the freedom of choice, which is a negative point of the cultural industry.
And Yes, Alice was written for a 7 years old (HP is not, I am saying kids but HP is a teen-young addult book), and Alice is doing this for more than a century.
I think you are mistaking reading the book with teaching through the book, which is what I'm describing. As I have said in earlier posts, it is an opportunity to explore a narrative and its shortcomings too. That could lead kids on to being more critically minded readers.
Not really, as I said teaching is not very useful for a critical analyse because it does not demand much and those who like to read it are just going to be upset because it will be like JBI coming to their class. Then it will be negative, not positive.
Most of the techniques in HP are simple, easy to grasp to the point that is unecessary to place an addult and meddle with the enjoyment of HP. And you could use better examples (why would you show a technique if not when it is best employed?).
The other function and main of teaching literature is incentive and HP being so popular, hardly call for incentive. So, all in all, the teacher will be more effective using the many other options, even those related to HP (after all, fans of HP may have interest to see other stories from where the characters originated. For example, why not using Dumbledore to show the archetypical wise old man or the fantasy bestiary to take them to other fantastical histories? Then, HP would be helping the teaching of the literature).
Easy for you but not children. These things have to be taught.
I hear what you're saying, but the comment was prompted by this earlier comment by stlukesguild:Originally Posted by JCamilo
so read something 'worthwhile' or don't read at all because reading 'pulp' fiction is just like not reading anyway.
But I think this is a step too far and I think that before answering whether one novel has greater value than another we need to understand whether literature in itself has value and, if so, what that value is. I'd be very interested in views on those points.
I wholeheartedly agree with your comments here:
and
and
I can see where you're coming from. I still think the curriculum needs a range of literature and that shouldn't exclude popular literature. If all kids took to reading then perhaps there is no incentive in studying HP, but at the same time I wonder if critically reading something which children may have already encountered may encourage them or elucidate how the critical reading process differs from reading for pleasure, and that critical reading skills can be applied regardless of whether the book is a 'classic' or otherwise. In so doing there's a link created between the literature they read in the classroom and the literature they encounter outside so they no longer see literature as a discipline split in two: the books they enjoy reading and those which they're forced to read in the classroom.
JCamilo, I don't know what you're copy of 1001 Nights is like but mine is 2600 pages long!! I'm not sure that equates to an 'accessible' read for an 8 year old
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I love the Harry Potter series They are like a modern day Charles Dickens tales. Magic exist in many more literary creations Should we just throw away a great story in order to satisfy the "understandings" of a bunch of fanatics that cannot see past the tips of their noses Literature=Freedom AND I am a Christian - Eastern Orthodox To believe in God means to believe in something that cannot be touched or explained Would it be so bad if magic existed A little bit? I know Harry Potter made me read and that is good enough for me.
I do not think Stlukes advocate lack of reading. I think he refers what kind of effect this reading may have or not, where it is leading and the special importance of a given work. And it seems like he does not see it on Harry Potter, so the effects could means as almost not reading, or like Darkshadow ended: it did not matter the work, it must be any work... Anyways, Stlukesguild writtes better than I do...
Well, yes. I do not know how it works in United States, but I suppose they search for specialists to define what is good or not. Anyways, last year I helped the national selection for schools (public schools) and there was several criteries that are applied. I do not agree with all of them and I think the system is flawed. There is the pedagogical parameters, then You receive the book and must judge it. Since some were for 9 olders onwards, there was illustrations, so there is a judgment from illustrations. The books cannt contain typographic mistakes. The quality of the biding must be good enough (since it is public money that will buy it and it must last). There can not be idealogical messagens. There was not a single poetry book, but I am sure they have some. You must explain why you would approve or not, from the artistic point of view as well. Then you give a note (from 1 to 10, but the person who hired me told me to give from 7 to 10, since 7, 8 is basically an elimination, and if you send something bellow than that and the book does not have blatant mistakes or racism, etc, they will ask the person to review the reasons the books are eliminated, and lets say, if JBI uses his reasons, they will not consider). So, the best graded books are offered to the schools and each made the list of which books the teachers want to use.But I think this is a step too far and I think that before answering whether one novel has greater value than another we need to understand whether literature in itself has value and, if so, what that value is. I'd be very interested in views on those points.
I analysed 8 books, gave one 10 (a surprisingly teen book, funny, that the main character used Inner Monologue all the time) and gave a few 7's. One was to for example to a minor russian author, but the text had blatant flaws of translation (the translator talks about russian revolution, altough the author is from XIX century, so it was a clear interference) and another it was to a version of Iliad, done by a famous children writer here. But the translation was awful, almost like reading a newspaper, no poetry, no resource, just the list of battles and names. I would give less, but what they did? They returned the book because the critics that I aimed to a prestigious author could not be right. They wanted me to raise the grade and eliminate a few bits of the text. So I am sure the system is flawed.
Yes, I do not think we should eliminate modern books, or popular books. I think however it is dangerous to pick those in the best-sellers tops, because it is an easy way. I think people can use Harry Potter, or at least work with elements of Harry Potter to show the other options. Who knows, showing Dumbledore is a Merlin or shorts, may lead to a new interest on Arturian stories (without focus on the feminism, holy grail misteries, real artur) that we have today.I can see where you're coming from. I still think the curriculum needs a range of literature and that shouldn't exclude popular literature. If all kids took to reading then perhaps there is no incentive in studying HP, but at the same time I wonder if critically reading something which children may have already encountered may encourage them or elucidate how the critical reading process differs from reading for pleasure, and that critical reading skills can be applied regardless of whether the book is a 'classic' or otherwise. In so doing there's a link created between the literature they read in the classroom and the literature they encounter outside so they no longer see literature as a discipline split in two: the books they enjoy reading and those which they're forced to read in the classroom.
JCamilo, I don't know what you're copy of 1001 Nights is like but mine is 2600 pages long!! I'm not sure that equates to an 'accessible' read for an 8 year old
Well, I have more than one, but HP isnt supposed to be around 12 and not 8? Anyways, 1001 Nights is a book that does not need to be read from begining to the end, maybe read from 11 to 14 years(not to mention the oral storytelling of 1001 Nights fables can be used in classrooms) and I have seen people getting interessed in reading the Nights if someone tell about the translations...
I think a choice of book for a curriculum is an impotant decision, but I ont see you're reasoning JCamillo. If everyone knows it - then there is no point? You can look deeper into the text. But the fact is that not all the kids will know it. It is a much more complex situation than you decribe. I was at school in the 70s, but my peers didn't take kindly to having unfamiliar classic stuff. I'm talking Tolkien and TH White, (another post remindedm of this). Few read them. We really needed popular novels just to get some of us started.
I've heard that too, but then I reckon most reasonably competent 8-9 year old readers could manage it. Certainly the first 3 books anyway, after that the length probably becomes more off-putting.
It's interesting to see how books are selected. I suppose a panel approach makes sense. I'm not sure how this works in UK or the US for that matter. From what I've been able to glean from the internet HP doesn't appear in the UK curriculum, though I do know my son's class used it last year (he would have been 7-8 then) as a study comparing literature to a movie, but it was not a serious study of the text.
But what I was more curious about, and perhaps I have not expressed overly well, is the question of what is it that study of literature teaches which can't be learned by any other means? Is the study of fictional literature critical to intellectual, spiritual, or social development?
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Heck, I'm going to start a thread
Want to know what I think about books? Check out https://biisbooks.wordpress.com/
Go for it.
Well, Ultimatelly, it is idealistic to hope that everyone must have a great critical reading, because they will domain the aspects of the texts, and not be manipulated, the whole democratic access to the power of words, etc.
In pratice, if we are talking about teens, some critical reading is just enough, more important is to build up the familiarity with books, etc.
first off, I agree with JBI in that the books on the whole do favour a Red Herring story... and even the series looked at as a whole may seem to.. for Snape is regarded as a bad guy for the entire series by Harry, yet in his dying moment he reveals to Potter that he was actually good, and looking out for him the entire time...
now to deus ex machina... beginning with book 1.. well, the ending, somehow out of the blue Harry looks in the mirror and he now has the philosopher's stone in his pocket, apparently because only one pure of heart who didn't want the stone for selfish reasons could have it fall into their pocket.. besides that, the apparent revelation that touching Harry Potter's skin makes Quirrel's flesh burn, which is the only thing that saves Potter...
book 2... the fact that as you say Fawkes had been introduced earlier in the story, does not mean at all that this is not an example of deus ex machina... the bird appears suddenly for no apparent reason, "out of the blue", as if by "divine providence", you get the picture... drops Harry the sorting hat, blinds the Basilisk about to kill him, and then Harry somehow miraculously pulls a giant sword out of the hat and kills the snake... how is this not an example of deus ex machina?????
book 3... Harry and the others are about to be overwhelmed by dementors and all of a sudden from out of nowhere, a Patronus comes flying to the rescue and saves them... and who made this, we find out after that it was not Harry's father like he thought, but Harry himself who has apparently gone back in time with Hermione, who just happens to have a time machine, and well Harry saves himself and the others... deus ex machina? I think so...
book 4... well not so bad as the ending of the others in terms of being a use of deus ex machina.. it could be regarded as such in a sense.. for as Voldemort casts his killing curse at Harry, Harry casts a juvenile expelliarmus curse, and somehow the curses lock together, and echoes start coming out of Voldemort's wand of the most recent people he killed, and miraculously these shadows are able to protect Harry as he escapes with his life...
book 5... not so much...
book 6... again not so much...
book 7... well somehow Voldemort's killing curse against Harry cannot kill Harry but only the small part of him inside Harry as a horcrux.. so miraculously, yet again Harry survives.. when he wakes up Narcisa Malfoy, can only think of whether her son is alive, and somehow forgets that if she allows Harry Potter to fake death, someone else might check and then her whole family would be murdered surely.. she acts totally ridiculously for someone trying to protect her son in this case... so again Harry survives.. deus ex machina, I would say so...
and earlier in the book the Deer Patronus that somehow leads harry to Godric Gryffindor's sword which they had absolutely needed to find, as somehow Snape has tracked them down, explained very insatisfactorily with a guy seeing a brief glimpse of them in a tent hahahaha... and Snape has again turned into a good guy... and Ron appears out of nowhere having found his way back to them with the use of the deluminator which apparently was made just to find Harry and Hermione??? and then he saves Harry... again two more examples of deus ex machina...
I mean, honestly I only listed the ends of boook 1-4 and 7, and a couple examples from earlier in book 7.. .there are other smaller examples if we want to go into it... but to end 5 of 7 books in a series with a literary technique that is considered quite poor, well this just illustrates the extreme mediocrity of her writing technique.. and the overuse of the Red Herring as mentioned by JBI, and her overwhelming dependence on cliches... we could go into this if you would like, post a page or two of her books and analyze them...
and another serious flaw in book 7... how does Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald in their great duel and become master of the Elder Wand which has to win every duel for its master, as this is how Harry beats Voldemort in the end.. Grindelwald was master of this wand, and using it, and was unstoppable, and yet somehow Dumbledore defeats him in a duel.. this is just poor writing to forget that you just finished writing that the master of the wand could not be defeated and yet here is Grindelwald being defeated using it... silly? yes...
but everyone claims he imagination is so great, her vision so wonderful? are you serious? she can't barely think of a way to end a story outside of deus ex machina... half her bad guys end up being "red herrings"... imagination, I think she is seriously lacking if one goes deeper than the obvious.. of course she made up a world, it's a fantasy...
wait do you mean you think it is primarily a children's book? or that you don't think it is? for I think it's value would be much increased if it were for the 6-9 year old range, which it is obvioulsy not aimed at.. even the first book was aimed at 9-13 year olds, and the last books at 13- really any age... I mean almost as many adults read it for pleasure as children.. so it is obviously not marketed as, meant as, nor seen as primarily a children's book and that is what makes it so mediocre as a work of supposedly serious literature...
bring it into the classroom with what purpose though? kids will read it regardless of whether it is taught in the school system, so why should it be in the classroom, why not take the opporunity to have them read something good, something interesting, something that's positives outweight its negatives unlike Potter??
Last edited by islandclimber; 07-22-2009 at 08:23 PM.
Honestly, who really cares about this masterwand toss - she made her protagonist Jesus - that's cliché enough - she even had him reincarnated to save the world. I mean, that's just pathetic if you ask me.
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