I won't become a real Christian.

[The Atheist]

but there is such a plethora of arguments supporting the existence of free will even with an Omniscient God...

Really?

Can you describe some of these arguments, because all of the ones I've seen during the past 30 or so years have been irrelevancies and ignorance dressed up as opinion rather than genuine arguments.

[hampusforev]

This is such a complicated discussion, man. I tell you, I've swung all over the place on this one. Sometimes I think people who belong to organized religion, and grant merit to the fundies, are the evildoers of the world, other times I completely understand their position.
I believe in spirituality, and people like Dawkins annoy the hell out of me, thinking that religion is actually a trait separate from the human condition that works like some kind of satanic force.

I agree with Kierkegaard, spirituality is something that's best practiced in the comfort of oneself, without bashing other people for straying from a god.
I do believe however that people who belong to organized religion, and buy the crap that preacher spews without a single shred of skepticism, are stupid. Religion and stupidity go hand in hand, there's no denying it.

[islandclimber]

Really?

Can you describe some of these arguments, because all of the ones I've seen during the past 30 or so years have been irrelevancies and ignorance dressed up as opinion rather than genuine arguments.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that these arguments are relevant, valid, or right, or in any way even begin to prove that free will and an omniscient god are not a contradiction.. if you read the rest of my post you will probably see that

all, I'm saying is there is a plethora of arguments, and whether some consider them to be just just irrelevant and ignorant opinions or not, they are still there... this very issue has been debated for a couple thousand years now...

above I even mentioned the argument of the catholic church, of God and Humans existing in seperate forms of time... but there are countless others, and to be honest I agree with you completely and would say there is little besides opinion and ignorance in the vast majority of them...

One school of Hindu thought suggests that matter has no freedom, and the soul cannot control matter, therefore it would appear there is no free will, but then they suggest free will is found in seperating the self from matter.. freedom cannot be found and this universe and therefore we must escape its boundaries and limitations...

Buddhism rejects both absolute free will and strong determinism and follows a middle ground partially because there really is no god... and partially because the notion of absolute freedom of choice appears silly as it ignores outside influence that is necessarily there...

there are also arguments from centuries ago such as Augustine's, Ockham's, Kieerkegard's... whether any of them have any validity is debateable, but they are still there and all I suggested was there are a large number of arguments (using the word plethora )..

anyways I don't myself agree with the possibility of free will and divine omniscience... but that is just my opinion...

Jane Li, we quote writers because sometimes what we want to say has already been said, sometimes a perfect example has already been given...

[aloe]

As a former athiest and current Christian, I believe I can speak to both sides of the question. I was an athiest because I looked around at the mess the world is in (war, poverty, famine, addictions) and decided there could be no God. Later, after coming in contact with the true Church of God, I learned that this world is such a mess precisely because man does have free will - man has been free to disobey God which leads to every kind of sorrow. If you look at the rest of the universe which must follow the natural laws of science, you see beauty and perfection. The first book I read on this site was "The Brothers Karamazov" which deals with this very issue of the existence of God. One brother, Ivan, feels as I did once. Another brother, Alexey is a man of faith in tune with the perfection of creation. I recommend that as a good read. If you want to find out what in the world God is doing I recommend "The Awesome Potential of Man" by David C. Pack.

[The Atheist]

there are also arguments from centuries ago such as Augustine's, Ockham's, Kieerkegard's... whether any of them have any validity is debateable, but they are still there and all I suggested was there are a large number of arguments (using the word plethora )..

Sure. Arguments can be made that black is white, or that 2+2=5, but I don't find them worth acknowledging.

As a former athiest and current Christian, I believe I can speak to both sides of the question. I was an athiest because I looked around at the mess the world is in (war, poverty, famine, addictions) and decided there could be no God. Later, after coming in contact with the true Church of God, I learned that this world is such a mess precisely because man does have free will - man has been free to disobey God which leads to every kind of sorrow.

Ah, that old "true church of god".

Aren't they all?

Sounds to me as though you were an anti-theist rather than atheist. The state of the world has never been an argument against god.

[JBI]

Really?

Can you describe some of these arguments, because all of the ones I've seen during the past 30 or so years have been irrelevancies and ignorance dressed up as opinion rather than genuine arguments.

The best argument is compatibility - in that, humans are able to make choices within the scheme of things - though there is still a predestined plan - given the nature of time as linear, time itself determines itself when it happens, and relies on the choices of everything. The choices themselves allow humans to choose, in many cases, the path their lives take, in keeping with the predetermined scheme.

In other words, the same predetermined time graph, with human choice taken into account and more emphasis put on the ability for humans to choose what course in life they take.

Just a more optimistic look on life than incompatibility, but ultimately, no closer to proving free will, as free will makes no sense whatsoever, as souls, in the Christian understanding make no scientific sense, and I think, "Just because you can't find one doesn't mean there isn't", and "

As for scientific evidence that denies the existence of the soul - well, the lack of physical matter or proof of any spirits anywhere does a decent enough job at dispelling it - also, the simple logical answer that the burden of proof is on those proving the existence of something, rather than denying it. If there is no evidence, logic dictates that we assume it does no exist. There is no evidence of a monster living under my bed, therefore, I can comfortably say, until proven otherwise, there is no monster under my bed.

There is no evidence of me being a messiah born without a father, therefore, I can safely say, I am not a reincarnation of Jesus Christ - we can go on forever - that which cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt cannot logically be assumed true.

Likewise, if we have two reports saying contradictory things, in an objective perspective, we must treat at least one as untrue, and suspect both of them. We have accounts of "proofs" of multiple conflicting faiths, whose doctrines aren't compatible with each other, therefore, the validity of such claims serves no real proof (not that it would be convincing anyway).

[Jane_Li]

Concerning the free will I don't konw much about this matter but what I know is that the existance of the free will does not contradict with the existance of God..God gave us our free will but He knows that we will do such and such..

"the lack of physical matter or proof of any spirits anywhere does a decent enough job at dispelling it"

Then if we go back to the year of 1201 and I said to you:"you know that there's something called electricity which can't be seen but it's all around ,and it's soooo helpful"
Of course you would say:" are you crazy??" because nobody knew the electricity at that time though it was spread around

"There is no evidence of a monster living under my bed, therefore, I can comfortably say, until proven otherwise, there is no monster under my bed."

you are again talking about fairy tales and magic on which we all approve that they're just lies..souls are not like monsters or tooth fairies or bigfoot or or or...

"I learned that this world is such a mess precisely because man does have free will - man has been free to disobey God which leads to every kind of sorrow. If you look at the rest of the universe which must follow the natural laws of science, you see beauty and perfection."

These are very beautiful words ...Goodness is from God and evil is from ourselves

[MarkBastable]

May I offer this contribution to the God debate? (As opposed to the Cod debate, which might be what it at first appears to refer to.)

[Buh4Bee]

I went to a Bible discussion today, where a group of people talked about topics related to Bible, and I was shocked to find that some people did commit themselves to God. They could even remember a particular passage in my Bible, which I bought lately. However I only went there to have people to talk to in English. I wonder how they've convinced themselves of God, Jesus, and everything that was realated in Bible, when nobody could have given a piece of evidence to what had happened thousands of years ago. It's really interesting to see how those people put their trust and energy in some sort of myth and take it as a guide to everything they do. As far as I am concerned, I will join some of these discussions gladly, but will not surrender my soul to any invisible power.

It's funny, because I am trying to give my soul over to God, but it's just too hard. So I thought what you wrote was quite funny, whether you meant it to be or not.

[Wintermute]

Hi,

Just an off topic observation/question: I've been away from this board for a while (4 months?) and I've noticed that the topics are pretty much the same. However there does seem to be a drop in the quality of pro-God arguments. What has happened to people like Pendragon (the gentle Christian) and RedZepplin (intelligent, slice-you-off-a-the-knees with bulldog persistance arguments)? Those folks were able to put forth well formed, intelligent arguments that facilitated learning and interest. In this thread at least, I see none of the old vigor--just boring, wishy-washy kind of arguments. Know what I mean?

Cheers,
Doug

[Buh4Bee]

Maybe the topic has been out argued as Virgil stated in the beginning. It also could be the time of year. Summer is a time when people are running in all kinds of directions.

[Wintermute]

Maybe the topic has been out argued as Virgil stated in the beginning. It also could be the time of year. Summer is a time when people are running in all kinds of directions.

Thanks Jersea,

That makes perfect sense.

Doug

[Virgil]

Hi,

Just an off topic observation/question: I've been away from this board for a while (4 months?) and I've noticed that the topics are pretty much the same. However there does seem to be a drop in the quality of pro-God arguments. What has happened to people like Pendragon (the gentle Christian) and RedZepplin (intelligent, slice-you-off-a-the-knees with bulldog persistance arguments)? Those folks were able to put forth well formed, intelligent arguments that facilitated learning and interest. In this thread at least, I see none of the old vigor--just boring, wishy-washy kind of arguments. Know what I mean?

Cheers,
Doug

I don't know about Red Zep. I haven't noticed him here as frequently as before, but I did see him here the other day. RichardHesko (I think that's his name) hasn't been around in a while. Pendragon has had health problems and only comes by on occaision. I will say these are all the same arguments you guys have already had, only inspired by a new poster. Is there anything new under the sun?

[virginiawang]

Later, after coming in contact with the true Church of God, I learned that this world is such a mess precisely because man does have free will - man has been free to disobey God which leads to every kind of sorrow. If you look at the rest of the universe which must follow the natural laws of science, you see beauty and perfection.

A world where everyone obeys an omnipotent power and thus loses his own free will is an artificial factory with dead machines, which funtion all the time without fail. It can never be something perfect. Words that we often use to describe such a place are dull, indifferent, cold, ect.

[ShadowFire]

I just stumbled upon this thread. I agree with aloe. I would like to state my opinion with the hope of not offending anyone. I am not trying to convert anyone, just hoping to give another perspective. I know some of you will roll your eyes at my words, but one cannot understand if one doesn't try. I am one of these Christians that give my whole life to it. I believe in the Bible as the absolute truth. Already many of you have rolled those eyes... I am open to any questions (even if they have already been discussed in this thread). I would like to touch on a bit of everything, especially the very first post.

My religion: Christian, Protestant, Nazarene

My source: Bible (if someone doesn't believe in this being true words then I find it very hard for he or she to understand the Christian faith, because Christians do believe it being true)

The first thing I would like to say about the Christian faith is it is just that "faith". Believing in something that is not necessarily logical or tangible. The reason faith is such a big factor is many things that can't be explained are because our minds are incapable of comprehending it (I believe). For example, someone stated there is no consistent description of heaven. The Bible states heaven is beyond the minds comprehension, so people speculate, hence the different views and the inconsistency.

The very first post asks how can people put their whole lives into this myth. Very simply it is not a myth to them. It is reality. Christianity has many benefits to it. Many people I have heard find it just a bunch of rules and guilt, but I feel then they may want to try a new perspective.

The Bible gives examples of when God changed His will because of a human's choice. He gave us free will so that we may choose Him. Doesn't it feel better if someone chooses to believe in you (support you, love you, etc.) than when they are forced to? The fact Adam and Eve choose not to obey (by the way I believe we obey God because we love Him not because it is the "right" thing to do) is why they were punished.

Hey watch them rolling eyes lol

hampusforev: I think it is foolish to listen to the preacher mindlessly. But I don't think that means religion and stupidity go hand in hand. My preacher uses scripture, and if he says something without scripture that I disagree with I turn to the scriptures for truth.

jersea: Maybe to give your soul over to God you may need to try a new tactic (Not necessarily to stop trying). Or you don't believe in Him in your heart? Just suggestions, I admit that I do not have a firm understanding on what you have/are doing in your life.

The Atheist: I just suggest to you to keep an open mind. And remember when doing your math it is all perspective...because in binary 1+1=10

Everyone: Like I said before, I wish not to offend or convert anyone. I am open to questions. My goal is to provide my perspective in a hope to give others a better understanding of where my beliefs, and others with similar beliefs to mine, come from.