Is it demeaning towards women?
Is it a legitimate affirmation of one's culture?
Should it be the woman's prerogative?
If crucifixes and other religious symbols are banned from certain schools, should the burka be as well?
Should the aforementioned religious symbols be banned at all?
This has been motivated by recent political developments, but I'm sure we can keep politics out of this discussion?
I am still alive then. That may come in useful.
Molloy
I am on the fence on this one. On the one hand i am very intimidated by not being able to see the persons face (anyone could be under there). On the other hand it is tha womans choice. But you dont need to wear that to be dressed modestly, and what does it matter if you are dressed in revealing clothes. That goes more to your fashion sense than your morals or character.
I suppose some people are forced by their families to wear it but hen even if it was banned for example those same people would just be forced to stay indoors by their families.
I certainly think no religion should have more right to open display than others. Basically if we are going to ban one type of religious display we should ban them all. Religion is what is in your heart not on your face or round your neck.
By the way i was assuming you meant the niqab (face covered as well). Am fine with headscarves its just like i said i prefer to see someones face
What is a ghost?
A tragedy condemned to repeat itself time and again?
A moment of pain perhaps.
Something dead which still seems to be alive.
An emotion suspended in time.
Like a blurred photograph.
Like an insect trapped in amber.
A ghost.
That's what I am.
ImaginaryFriend, you did well to assume that, I did mean the one that covered all over. Thanks for your input!
Also an issue I forgot to bring up has to do with security concerns. I've often thought about how easy it would be for some thief to dress up in a niqab and rob and mug people. This is but a stupid fantasy, but there could be a real issue behind this line of reasoning:
Does the impossibility to identify someone who's wearing a niqab pose a security risk, or at least logistic/bureaucratic problems when it comes to routine ID checks, recognition in CCTV tapes and the like?
I am still alive then. That may come in useful.
Molloy
I think if it is actually the woman's choice, then I am fine with it.
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its' own reason for existing." ~ Albert Einstein
"Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Bonzai "Some people say I done alright for a girl." Melanie Safka
I believe it has happened where men have dressed like this and robbed a jewellery shop but i cant be sure.
About it being the womans choice, like i said we can never be sure of that because of cultural pressure which may only happen in the minority of cases but is still hard to differentiate between this and free will.
Another aspect which comes to mind is that it widens social and cultural divide by making it blatantly obvious for all to see. I am not saying that everyone should conform but it still raises an interesting point for these times.
Security-wise it should definitely be banned, not because everyone who wears it is trying to hide something but because of the potential abuse of it by criminals. Unfortunately a small amount of people ruin things for everyone yet again...
What is a ghost?
A tragedy condemned to repeat itself time and again?
A moment of pain perhaps.
Something dead which still seems to be alive.
An emotion suspended in time.
Like a blurred photograph.
Like an insect trapped in amber.
A ghost.
That's what I am.
Hmm, Franz Fanon's work on the subject seems to make sense in a colonial perspective, in relation to how Algiers viewed traditional garb as a form of resistance to French occupation but in an immigration perspective, it becomes difficult. The question is about modesty, as the religion itself, from what I understand, requires modest dress. In that sense then, the Burka's wearing implies that anything visible on a woman would be deemed as immodest - I.E. anything but the smallest touch of eye, and perhaps hands and maybe wrists. That I find problematic.
I'm against it - if someone, in my view, is under the belief that they are somehow disgusting, or shouldn't be looked at for whatever reason, then, quite frankly, somewhere along the lines there was some conditioning that I can't agree with.
This is an immensly complicated topic. Here in Denmark, in line with increasing racism, it seems to have taken great proportions. At this point, it is now forbidden for women wearing simply a hijab, the headscarf, to rule in court. This was decided as a young woman as the first managed to complete the degree, in spite of all odds. Ridiculous.
I think it is important to remember that the bhurka, Hijab, etc, are not just religious symbols, but also cultural. I would never wear one, but I do think it is important to allow women who wish to wear one that right. Instead of outlawing it, one can assist those whom find it difficult to stop wearing one for social or family related reasons.
While I'm atheist I think its silly to ban religious symbols, as they are a part of our cultures, and our religions, or non-religions are a part of who we are. Instead I would argue that society should put its time and money into teaching tolerance and informing about the benefits of multidiversity.
Amen to that.Originally Posted by qimissung
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I've worked in the Middle East for the last 15 years but must honestly say that because of the formal/cultural separation of the sexes it would be hard to get a first hand female's perspective on this subject
In Saudi its very strict, but then on occasion when flying out from the Kingdom to the UK, the speed with which the Saudi women change into Western dress once airborn is quite something.
In Iran, its quite strict in public, but then when invited to an Iranian's house for a meal, its quite normal to sit down with the wife without the burka & head scarf and hold a normal discussion face to face. Unheard of in Saudi hospitality, where you sit with the man only and then ask him to thank his wife for the nice meal.
I think that here in Qatar, they have found the right balance. Head scarfs, covered arms, sharp but modest dressing.
Not sure if that helps.
I was wonder when I read your post what a burka really looks like. If it includes a piece of veil that covers a woman's face and a long dress, it sounds like a pretty dress for women. However if it covers a woman's face with a piece of cloth, which spreads from a woman's head to her toes, it is horrible, and in opinion, degrading for women. Why will anyone want to conceal all women's faces for whatever reason that may have come to his head? If a religion teaches people to hurt someone's feelings, I am sure it is not a good religion, which only promulgates fatuous ideas.
If I chose to walk around naked would you accept that?
"And the worms, they will climb
The rugged ladder of your spine"
Virginiawang.
It would be interesting to know when the burka was first designed & the factors that determined its creation: protection from the sun, modesty, to stop men getting exicited?
Mark F
Non merci mon brave!
I still don't know whether it is a piece of veil or cloth that covers the face. That makes a great difference.
My understanding is:
A burka is the Afgan full Monty (Head to toe, inclusive face)
An Abaya is the Middle East version, which can be with, or without covering the face).
A Chidora is the Iran equivalent to the Abaya.
I see nothing wrong with anyone wearing something that represents thier religion. Especially if, as in the case with a burka, that religion encompasses a culture and lifestyle.
Wearing a burka is not (in my opinion) demeaning to women so long as it's the woman's choice. If it's just part of her lifestyle and she does no feel it is degrading at all, why should anyone else see it as such? What I see as degrading to women is the treatment of some of them in certain regions where Islam is largely practiced. Certainly not all women are treated badly. Islam seems to carry this stigma of mysogeny and violence that is not applicable to many practicing Muslims.
I'm not familiar enough with the treatment of women in Afghanistan. I know what I've heard, but when there's a war and such a cultural divide, it is hard to seperate fact from propaganda/paranoia. So I would be out of place making an overall judgement on it.
Mani- Thank you for your discriptions and explination...that was very interesting. I was wondering though, you said a chidora is the Iranian equivalent to the abaya; is it exactly the same thing but just named differently, or is there an actual difference between the two?
Chava- I fully agree with you that it is silly to try and ban religious icons. I think that is a total violation of personal freedoms. And where would it end? How can you tell one person not to wear a hajib, but it's okay for someone else to wear a crucifix? Then you'd have to start banning turbans, the red dot, saris, stars of david etcetc
I'm not religious myself (I'm agnostic) but I do not get offended in the slightest at seeing others' religious icons. My issue is when its pushed on me (but that's a different topic altogether)
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