Thank you very much. I'm especially flattered that you were struck by my addressing him as "Mr. Hitler." I couldn't have explained why I chose to address him that way but had a strong conviction that "Herr Hitler" or just plain "Hitler" wouldn't do the trick. There was something, I guess, in "Mr." that was meant to take him down from a demonic/mythic level and to deal with him on a (monstrous) human level.Originally Posted by acdouglas92
I'm glad you restored the poem. I liked the second version, but it lacked the power of the first. I can understand how it could be offensive. I wanted to tell you that I liked it so well that I was telling a friend of mine about it over the weekend.
Reminds me of the film Downfall which chronicles the last days of Hitler's life/reign (he's played brilliantly by Bruno Ganz) where he's portrayed, quite controversially, more human. I remember reading or hearing something about it which said "The scariest thing about Hitler wasn't that the man was a monster, but that the monster was a man."
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung
"To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists
"I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers
taken by the surprise ending, jer, you have done it again...
gripping, the words ache still after you read them. wonderful
"real
loneliness
is not
necessarily
limited to
when
you are
alone"
-C. Bukowski
No question this is far better. Actually I hadn't really paid attention to that last clause, "who never lied to us." It really challenges the whole notion of the claim of sympathy toward Hitler. Aesthetically that little ending clause jabs at that supposed love of Hitler.Every Jew, I sometimes think,
is secretly a little bit in love
with Hitler, who never lied to us.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Which is what makes it so effective, imo.
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its' own reason for existing." ~ Albert Einstein
"Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Bonzai "Some people say I done alright for a girl." Melanie Safka
Many thanks, Lynne. As you may have noticed I did change it back to the original. I'd had those two lines (without "I sometimes think") for quite some time. My older son, a poet whose advice I cherish, thought it was already a complete poem but I was never comfortable offering it as such, and changed it to the softer version because I did and do still recoil from the very dark paranoia of the original. And one Jewish friend of mine dissented from my allegation that this was true of "every Jew."
So good to see you back here! I'd love to hear in what manner you paraphrased this poem to that friend of yours.
it is another perspective. one could see hitler as being one of the greatest socialist as socialism is about the people and his plan was to restore the glory of germany. obviously this is not my viewpoint as the means does not justify the end but if one was to take it as a perspective (the method aside) and see a man who promises to find work for his people, to restore the glory of a country then is that not socialism?
''It isn't enough for your heart to break because everybody's heart is broken now.''
- Allen Ginsberg
"The whole dream of democracy is to raise the proletarian to the level of stupidity attained by the bourgeois."
- Gustave Flaubert
No, my use of "Mr." obviously misled you. The man who accepted or instituted a particular way for Germans to great each other - "Heil Hitler" - would have expected, at minimum, that I address him as "Herr Hitler," and my use of "Mr." was meant precisely to make him an ordinary man.
But I wonder, sometimes, that amid our society's need and sincere wish to be compassionate, we might sometimes go overboard in our quest to be forgiving. This villain may or may not find forgiveness from a being removed from this deeply-flawed world.
When I read this I thought of something I read years ago -(-where? Maybe in Gibbon ) in which he says one of the failings of the post-Christian, all-inclusive Roman Empire was that it "suffered from an excess of open-mindedness."
In any event, your piece, as always, provokes much thought and discussion. That's one of the things the best of contemporary literature should do!Indeed, that last part is the scariest thing of all! So much easier if one were dealing with abstract 'evil' than with a man, somewhat like you or me.
Thank you indeed. The "surprise" ending was the seed that produced the poem, a dark, deeply troubling insight that had occured to me a longish time ago and was waiting for an appropriate place to introduce it.
I cannot of course authenticate the "every Jew" assertion in it and at least one Jewish friend of mine denied that this applied to her, which is why I inserted "I sometimes think."
Prince, I wouldn't worry about authenticating the "every Jew" part. Obviously that could not be true and it adds that instabilty to that last strophe (as Auntie likes to call the stanzas) that I think you really desire. I think you want the reader to question that last part. No?
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Your question is a fascinating one. I wouldn't say I wanted the reader to question my closing assertion but rather that (after the fact) I'm perfectly comfortable that they might do so. "I sometimes think" was intended to make the statement part of the persona's biography. If I prepared for it in any way I think that was by virtue of the use of "Mr. Hitler" which might be read to take him out of his historic context and represent him as a concept or caricature in the persona's mind.Prince, I wouldn't worry about authenticating the "every Jew" part. Obviously that could not be true and it adds that instabilty to that last strophe (as Auntie likes to call the stanzas
To what extent, these days, can any one of us claim to speak on behalf of mankind or any portion of it? I've always been a bit envious of something Chekhov wrote to a friend of his, in which he expressed the wish to address his Russian contemporaries thus: "You live badly, my friends. Isn't it shameful to live as badly as you do?"
Although he did not say this out loud, so to speak, haven't many of us wished to address our fellow countrymen or co-religionists in just those terms?
Yes I think the persona is prepared by the "Mr. Hitler" and by the addressing of "you" and referring to "us".
Yes, that's my point. No one can actually speak for a group of people and be comprehensive of the various opinions.To what extent, these days, can any one of us claim to speak on behalf of mankind or any portion of it? I've always been a bit envious of something Chekhov wrote to a friend of his, in which he expressed the wish to address his Russian contemporaries thus: "You live badly, my friends. Isn't it shameful to live as badly as you do?"
I think I do it every day.Although he did not say this out loud, so to speak, haven't many of us wished to address our fellow countrymen or co-religionists in just those terms?
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
I'd be most interested to hear any one of these reproaches, though they might better fit in some other forum. Come to think of it, we haven't seen a poem of yours in quite some time.I think I do it every day.
The "love" I meant is the blackest sort of love, the sort one might feel when one has absolutely exhausted the resources of hatred. The sort referred to here:
"[Hate] has a lot in common with love, chiefly with that self-transcending aspect of love, the fixation on others, the dependence on them and in fact the delegation of a piece of one's identity to them... The hater longs for the object of his hatred...[It] is a diabolical attribute of the fallen angel... A state of the spirit that aspires to be God, that may even think it is God, and is tormented by indications that it is not and cannot be. [The typical hater displays] a serious face, a quickness to take offense, strong language, shouting, the inability to step outside himself and his own foolishness." Vaclav Havel, at a conference on the subject of hatred, convened by Elie Wiesel in Oslo in August or September 1990. Quoted in Lance Morrow, "The Anatomy of Hate," Time Magazine, 17 9 90, p. 88
[QUOTE=AuntShecky;745629]When I read this I thought of something I read years ago -(-where? Maybe in Gibbon ) in which he says one of the failings of the post-Christian, all-inclusive Roman Empire was that it "suffered from an excess of open-mindedness."
QUOTE]
Actually, it was C.S. Lewis. Sounds more like him, right?
sorry.
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