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Thread: Every Jew is secretly a little bit in love

  1. #16
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynne50 View Post
    Prince, I loved this poem too. Virgil When I read the line...
    Like a surgeon you wielded your armies and all the instruments of state...
    what came to my mind, was an operating room with all the gruesome instruments lined up on the tray just like an army troop in formation. I think that image will stay with me for awhile. What do you think, could that be a valid interpretation?
    Sure it's valid. I didn't read it that way. I guess it's suggestive of that, though not precisely stated that way. That would be an interesting metaphor if that's what he meant.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  2. #17
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    As a Jew, I can't help but find that offensive - it shows lack of sensitivity, or nay understanding really of the universal Jewish condition.

  3. #18
    All are at the crossroads qimissung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynne50 View Post
    Prince, I loved this poem too. Virgil When I read the line...
    Like a surgeon you wielded your armies and all the instruments of state...
    what came to my mind, was an operating room with all the gruesome instruments lined up on the tray just like an army troop in formation. I think that image will stay with me for awhile. What do you think, could that be a valid interpretation?
    If you don't mind my responding to your question, Lynne50, I believe yours is a valid and extremely vivid image that you conjured. I think it will stay with me awhile, too.
    "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its' own reason for existing." ~ Albert Einstein
    "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Bonzai
    "Some people say I done alright for a girl." Melanie Safka

  4. #19
    Something's gotta give PrinceMyshkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    As a Jew, I can't help but find that offensive - it shows lack of sensitivity, or nay understanding really of the universal Jewish condition.
    As a Jew myself, I well understand the offense you take - at the last stanza in particular, I assume? Where the original lines
    Every Jew is secretly a little bit in love
    with Hitler, who never lied to us

    came from, I can't really say, but I tried to soften or contextualize them by inserting I sometimes think, so that the intuition or notion becomes in effect a bit of self-portrait.

    It is the acting out of some desperate fantasy: that if only Hitler had known me or any other typical Jew before he launched his murderous programme, he might or would have seen that we were loveable. In that sense there is some kind of twisted logic here: Since one cannot, could not hate the actual Hitler deeply enough, perhaps one could go in a directly other direction?

  5. #20
    All are at the crossroads qimissung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jikan myshkin View Post
    I come to you now master
    With a fresh bouquet of ash and gold fillings
    That was sold to me as a fertilizer for my dreams
    Of a unified nation
    The cost was never explained to me
    The label said ‘the end always justifies the means’
    Could this be true? Could the world be saved?
    I know you tried your hardest
    But were thwarted by a lack of courage
    ‘One of the greatest socialist leaders’
    Is what the burnt texts did say
    The ones that anticipated your victory
    But I am not a gypsy
    And I am not a Jew
    I am one who cried when I heard the game was through
    So now I join in the line of children who dare to dream
    And present you with this humble bouquet of ash and gold fillings
    You, leader of the people, Hitler thy name

    Germany, as seen through the eyes of one of Hitler's Youth.
    "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its' own reason for existing." ~ Albert Einstein
    "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Bonzai
    "Some people say I done alright for a girl." Melanie Safka

  6. #21
    Inexplicably Undiscovered
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    The second and third stanzas --"strophes" -- are by far superior, but the verse as a whole is quite good, and, as always in all of your pieces, thought-provoking.

    Your speaker --and I believe--you, yourself are such forgiving souls that a little bit of a less negative view toward the inexplicably-respectful term "Mr." Hitler sneaks in. But I wonder, sometimes, that amid our society's need and sincere wish to be compassionate, we might sometimes go overboard in our quest to be forgiving. This
    villain may or may not find forgiveness from a being removed from this deeply-flawed world.

    When I read this I thought of something I read years ago -(-where? Maybe in Gibbon ) in which he says one of the failings of the post-Christian, all-inclusive Roman Empire was that it "suffered from an excess of open-mindedness."

    In any event, your piece, as always, provokes much thought and discussion. That's one of the things the best of contemporary literature should do!

  7. #22
    MANICHAEAN MANICHAEAN's Avatar
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    I think actually in the bulk of this discussion that we are in agreement.
    1. How or why man was created cannot be ascertained in a definitive manner from history/theology unless one assumes a totally blind acceptace of that laid down in Scripture.
    2. The argument based upon cause/effect reaction leading to the conclusion of an initial cause of Creation, of which I'm sure you are familiar, is a bit too obtuse & cold blooded for my taste.
    3. So I've given up trying to reason it, but quietly accept a faith within myself based on feeling & instinct? Is there a North-West Passage to the spiritual world?
    4. Thanks for the point on "devolution". One of the variables I missed.
    Best regards.

  8. #23
    Something's gotta give PrinceMyshkin's Avatar
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    To all those who previously read this: please note that I've made a change to the end-lines.

  9. #24
    And it all led to nothing acdouglas92's Avatar
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    Prince, I must admit this is a hell of a poem...well done. I'd love to see your perspective on it, but mine is as follows:

    Hitler originally proclaimed that he would wipe the blight of depression from the German economy, when instead, he ended up attempting to wipe the self-proclaimed blight of the non-Germans from the rest of the world. I love the satire in this one, it's really quite striking how you address him as "Mr. Hitler". Really well done, I'll be back to comment more on this, but that's all that my perplexed mind could come up with at the moment.

    Again, well done!
    “Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence. True friendship is a plant of slow growth, and must undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity before it is entitled to the appellation.” - George Washington

    "Time for you and time for me,
    And time yet for a hundred indecisions,
    And for a hundred visions and revisions." - T.S. Eliot

  10. #25
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin View Post
    To all those who previously read this: please note that I've made a change to the end-lines.
    Ok, I happen to like the previous version better, but I understand the change. The original I think was better poetry and really more psychologically penetrating. For me "secretly in love" with Hitler suggests the the sort of passivity from the Jewish community at large that occured during the halocaust, while "secretly in awe" suggests to me a desire to replicate his actions on someone else. I wonder what others think.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  11. #26
    All are at the crossroads qimissung's Avatar
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    I think I liked the first version better, like a girl who respects a boy's brutal honesty; mainly it's the idea of loving Hitler, and the brutal juxtaposition therein.
    Last edited by qimissung; 07-04-2009 at 01:01 AM.
    "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its' own reason for existing." ~ Albert Einstein
    "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Bonzai
    "Some people say I done alright for a girl." Melanie Safka

  12. #27
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
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    I also liked the first better. Don't shy away from controversy, Prince. I know many might read a kind of blasphemy into the comment, but I think that's only superficial, and more will be provoked to really ponder and penetrate the subtlety of the statement.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  13. #28
    This celestial seascape! Lynne50's Avatar
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    Prince,
    I can understand why you felt the need to change the last stanza, but I have to agree with Virgil and Morpheus and say that I think the first version is more powerful. The last stanza, in it's orginal form is very thought provoking; your new version seems a bit watered down.

    You know I'm one of your biggest fans, so continue to write with your own voice.. It's only a poem..people can read it or not read it... regard it highly or disregard it entirely. Keep your poems coming!
    "What is this life if, full of care, we have no time to stand and stare." W.H. Davies

  14. #29
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin View Post

    You cut away a third of us, Mr. Hitler,
    but the remnant
    will expand
    to incorporate the genius
    and, yes, the flaws
    of the untimely dead.

    Like a master surgeon
    you wielded your armies
    and all the instruments of state
    to carve the rot
    from the German body politic

    History
    has been slicing and dicing us
    from the beginning
    and we, and the world,
    are tired of our kvetching.

    To be a Jew
    is never to be whole
    but a remnant of the remnant.

    Every Jew, I sometimes think,
    is secretly a little bit in awe
    of Hitler, who made us, indeed,
    the "chosen people."
    This poem is really mind blogging. This interprets the profound truth of what Jewish-ism and how the world hitherto not ceases seeing it as a vestige.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  15. #30
    Something's gotta give PrinceMyshkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qimissung View Post
    I, too, am taken by the ending. The lot of the outcast is never easy; I like that you point out the usually unacknowledged and intimate bond between bully and victim. But the aching part of your poem is the one before, "To be a Jew is to never be whole, but to be a remnant of the remnant..."
    Yes, the bond between bully & victim, and what I think has come to be called the "Stockholm Syndrome," these lie somewhere in the background of the closing lines (now restored) which, frankly, shocked and sickened me when I first thought of them (without the intended softening of "I sometimes think").

    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin View Post
    To all those who previously read this: please note that I've made a change to the end-lines.
    Correction

    In response to several persuasive responses, I've restored the ending of the poem to what it was originally. Thanks to all those who 'voted.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I do think this a remarkable poem Prince, not the least for its psychological insight. And the profoundity of it really does grap me in the gut. The word "remnant" takes on an incredible power. When a word seems to grow in meaning through the poem you know you have a winner of a piece. The first and last two stanzas are absolutely top notch, as good anything published by any major poet. I do have reservations about the second and third stanzas though. They echo with cliches: "instruments of state," "wieliding of armies," "slicing and dicing." Actually the second one nears a mixed metaphor that is somewhat confusing: surgeon intertwined with wielding armies. I like the surgeon metaphor and it gives justification to and softens the "slicing and dicing" phrase. I guess as I'm thinking out loud here, it's really the second stanza, the weilding of armies and instruments of state that rings off for me. Perhaps some tweaking on that second stanza might make this poem perfect. But whatever you do, it is a fine work.
    Thanks, Virgil. All of stanzas 2 & 3 were meant as elaborations of the surgeon metaphor, "wielding his armies" as a surgeon might (in this case) a particularly sharp scalpel. If I can come up with anything better, I'll post the alteration.

    And by the way, I want to disclaim credit for my use of the image of the "remnant." It is a phrase that has long been used for the survivors of any mass anti-Jewish action and may be found, in other connections, as far back as "Revelations."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynne50 View Post
    Prince, I loved this poem too. Virgil When I read the line...
    Like a surgeon you wielded your armies and all the instruments of state...
    what came to my mind, was an operating room with all the gruesome instruments lined up on the tray just like an army troop in formation. I think that image will stay with me for awhile. What do you think, could that be a valid interpretation?
    Yes, that is very much a valid interpretation. In fact, it'what I had in mind. Thanks for your sensitive reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by jikan myshkin View Post
    I come to you now master
    With a fresh bouquet of ash and gold fillings
    That was sold to me as a fertilizer for my dreams
    Of a unified nation
    The cost was never explained to me
    The label said ‘the end always justifies the means’
    Could this be true? Could the world be saved?
    I know you tried your hardest
    But were thwarted by a lack of courage
    ‘One of the greatest socialist leaders’
    Is what the burnt texts did say
    The ones that anticipated your victory
    But I am not a gypsy
    And I am not a Jew
    I am one who cried when I heard the game was through
    So now I join in the line of children who dare to dream
    And present you with this humble bouquet of ash and gold fillings
    You, leader of the people, Hitler thy name
    I hope one is meant to read this, as one of the respondents suggested, as being in the voice of one of the enraptured Hitlerjugend, and as such is is every bit as devastating as I hoped my own poem would be.

    You might want to read "Death Fugue" by Paul Celan: http://mason.gmu.edu/~lsmithg/deathfugue.html

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