The flawless novel

[JBI]

And when the situation changes...? When/if we find ourselves once again in the throws of a Neo-Conservative revolution and even approaching a new theocracy... are we then willing to accept that any number of works are suddenly to be deemed seriously flawed under those conditions... or is it just a one-way development with an assumption that we will become an ever increasingly kinder gentler society?

Exactly - judgments change - works do not remain "perfect" or cannot remain perfect, as even language changes drastically over time. Texts are always dynamic, as are tastes. What makes certain books great, is there ability to adapt to changing tastes, and still be great. Shakespeare, for instance, suffered from changing tastes in the 18th century, and had his endings modified, and his structures revamped. The poet Alexander Pope even published his "Shakespeare" which essentially remolded the whole thing into closed couplets (and, for a little ironic trivia, lead to horrible criticism, which would lead him to write the Dunciad). Dr. Johnson had many problems with what were termed Shakespeare's Quibbles, that is, his use of puns, as did much of the 18th century intelligentsia.

Taste is rooted in time period, but some books somehow have power to transcend tastes. If society changes drastically however, I am sure many texts will simply be forgotten. As it is, many "Western" texts will be forgotten, as soon as people realize that you cannot just look at literature as occidental, and oriental anymore. Certainly changing climates effect texts, as do other texts. To us, it is perhaps the bigoted perspectives in the book that may make us cringe, for others, it may be the obsession with money, who can say.

That being said, like I said, I think it a pretty damn good novel, and pretty close to perfect. That doesn't mean it cannot be criticized though.

[dfloyd]

but certaily not flawless, if your definition of lawless is not one scene, one description, or one dialog have any wasted words or words not necessary. Most critics of American literature consider The Geat Gatsby as Flawless. As for me, my choice is Uncle Wiggly in Connecticut.

[Lynne Fees]

Boy, I really have to read Madame Bovary.

A follow-up to Classic Charm's question: is it too hard to read in French?


Everyone knows there's no such thing as a 'flawless novel' - this is but a truism. Much more interesting would be if y'all'd answer the OP's question which some of you have only adressed in passing: 'What makes a novel perfect?'

Nothing should be superfluous. Arguably, there ought to be some sort of symmetry and everything should be related. This means that every element should be connected to one another (as in an organism), but each element should also be able to exist on its own and thus be more than merely a counterpart.

This, of course, if you're looking for 'perfection', whatever that might be. 'Perfection', to my mind, implies a system, and maximum efficiency.

I can only hope this makes any sense.

I've never read it Madame Bovary, and I need to.
Perfection seems like a scientific concept to me, not a literary one. Literature is way too subjective to find perfection. I agree with you as far as the symmetry and interrelation of the plot being necessary to have a great novel, but a "perfect" novel? No.

[emily00]

Perfection in a novel is, I agree, hard to define. Perhaps it is useful to think of what constitutes 'perfect design' in any sphere? Something which marries form and function, as perfectly as possible. Like collie dogs. Or pot-bellied teapots with long spouts. Babies' feet. Or lazy-fish corkscrews. You will no doubt have your own favourites!

Steinbeck's 'Of Mice and Men' seems to me to be near perfect in its conception and its construction. It's clearly rooted in its place (a Californian ranch) and its time (1930s), yet its significance is universal. The protagonists are Everyman figures. The themes are classical : the hostile universe: man's inhumanity to man; the fragility of dreams; the inevitability of disaster. It begins and ends in a place like Eden, but in the three intervening days, events stride on and life changes irrevocably. Steinbeck steps right back from his narrative; it appears effortlessly to tell itself, sparely, beautifully, unselfconsciously. Not a word is wasted, nor left out.

I agree that 'Madame Bovary' and 'The Great Gatsby' are also strong contenders for the title.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Perfection in a novel is, I agree, hard to define. Perhaps it is useful to think of what constitutes 'perfect design' in any sphere? Something which marries form and function, as perfectly as possible. Like collie dogs. Or pot-bellied teapots with long spouts. Babies' feet. Or lazy-fish corkscrews. You will no doubt have your own favourites!

Steinbeck's 'Of Mice and Men' seems to me to be near perfect in its conception and its construction. It's clearly rooted in its place (a Californian ranch) and its time (1930s), yet its significance is universal. The protagonists are Everyman figures. The themes are classical : the hostile universe: man's inhumanity to man; the fragility of dreams; the inevitability of disaster. It begins and ends in a place like Eden, but in the three intervening days, events stride on and life changes irrevocably. Steinbeck steps right back from his narrative; it appears effortlessly to tell itself, sparely, beautifully, unselfconsciously. Not a word is wasted, nor left out.

Hmm, I only think it rises above average. I agree that there are a lot of big universal themes in this piece, but there is little beauty in this novella, even if beauty resists definition.

[emily00]

but there is little beauty in this novella, even if beauty resists definition.

In other words, little of what you consider to be beautiful, but cannot express?!

I accept, beauty is ultimately in the eye of the beholder; it's a subjective thing. However...if we approach it from the 'beauty is truth' angle, and if you agree there are some 'big universal themes' in the novel, then those important truths must surely contribute to its beauty.

What do you consider detracts from its design or execution?

[Tournesol]

Humans, who write novels, are flawed. So, a product[a novel] of the human mind [which is flawed] must, most likely, also be flawed.

[emily00]

Humans, who write novels, are flawed. So, a product[a novel] of the human mind [which is flawed] must, most likely, also be flawed.

Yes, I would agree with that, as a principle, but it would render the original question unanswerable or even meaningless, which I do not think it is. Prehaps it should be prefaced with 'Given the inherent imperfection of the human mind, which novel do you think is the most perfect example of its kind?

Then we must look, as people on this thread have done, to plot/structure, characterisation, evocation of setting(s), the importance of the themes and the narrative style.

Of these, I suspect it is the latter in which is the most difficult for a writer to demonstrate, or a reader to see, 'perfection'.

[LitNetIsGreat]

In other words, little of what you consider to be beautiful, but cannot express?!

I accept, beauty is ultimately in the eye of the beholder; it's a subjective thing. However...if we approach it from the 'beauty is truth' angle, and if you agree there are some 'big universal themes' in the novel, then those important truths must surely contribute to its beauty.

What do you consider detracts from its design or execution?

It's a bit too obvious in its execution. The book is used as a set piece for GCSE study in English it's very easy and obvious, it feels like a text book read to me, there is nothing sublime about it. It's quite a good solid book, don't get me wrong, but there's nothing extra there.

[emily00]

It's a bit too obvious in its execution. The book is used as a set piece for GCSE study in English it's very easy and obvious, it feels like a text book read to me, there is nothing sublime about it. It's quite a good solid book, don't get me wrong, but there's nothing extra there.

Interesting. I agree, it can appear simple, but all I would say is that simplicity can be a feature of excellent design. When I first read the novel, I would have agreed with you that it was 'easy and obvious'.* Now, having read it many times, I'm not so sure. I think it is more complex than you give it credit for. Not in the sense of its narrative style, but in the way it unselfconsciously presents us with a microcosm of the human world and asks : how can this world resist disintegration - how can individuals on the far fringes of that world, be accommodated? In the end it does not offer any easy answers and it is undeniably bleak.

But then, all the best literature is tragic...

*The fact that it is a set text at GCSE English Literature should not mean that it cannot be read at a level above that, of course.

[Dionido]

I think that it isn't really possible to talk about a "flawless novel", inasmuch as literature (especially prose rather than poetry as JBI pointed out at the beginning of the thread) is not a science and inevitably all novels are filtered through the subjectivity of the reader, who is then called to "like" or "not like" certain aspects of it.

If flawless perfection consists in a complete adherence to certain models, or to a certain narrative/formal/thematic scheme, then I would see it as a deep contradiction of what literature and art in general means to me.

If by flawless we mean simply something we can't seem to dislike in any way whatsoever, well I think that depends fully on individual tastes and interests. MissScarlett said that many think that "novels should be flawed because they are about human beings and human beings are flawed"; in fact I think that what allows us to favour certain novels over others is our own individual predisposition to overlook their so-called flaws and interpret them as characteristic qualities.

[kelby_lake]

I'd say we have to say flawless with regards to the knowledge of humanity's flaws and obsessions, expressed poetically. Thus, I'm leaning towards The Great Gatsby, because it does have flaws, but the analysis of the human condition is spot-on.

[sixsmith]

I'd say we have to say flawless with regards to the knowledge of humanity's flaws and obsessions, expressed poetically. Thus, I'm leaning towards The Great Gatsby, because it does have flaws, but the analysis of the human condition is spot-on.

Funny because on reading the title to this thead i immediately thought of "Revolutionary Road" which is often compared to Gatsby. To my mind Yates' novel is the greater achievement; not only his prose matchless but the cumulative effect is more revealing, more compelling than Fitzgerald's undeniably superb novel.

[emily00]

Actually, I've decided that I'd like to nominate 'The Remains of the Day' as well.

[Dr. Hill]

Pushkin's Eugene Onegin could be, but that's a novel in verse. Does it count?