I love the study of origins. Whether it is where a word originated, how a city was established, or from what people that an ethnic group or nation was born.
I'd like to start this thread discussing the origins of the Turks and/or the establishment of Constantinople. If you would like to bring up other items for discussion after this one is discussed, feel free.
Who are the Turks?
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
Ok Bien, here's a cut and paste:
Bien, Constantinople fell to the Ottoman turkish empire in 1453, if I'm remembering my history. The turks were originally a people who migrated from central Asia (perhaps I think where Kazahkstan is now) and slowly settled in Asia Minor, what is now Turkey, I think around the 10th century. Slowly they took away what was the Byzantine Empire, especially Turkey and really could not take the city of Constantinople for quite a while. It's location was extremely difficult to sack it. I believe gun powder and the development of cannons which smashed down the Constantinople walls were the deciding factor. The last Byzantine emperor, I can't quite remember his name, decided to go down fighting with the city rather than escape. A fascinating history. Of course this is all by my memory, so go and look it up and let me know if I'm off with the facts somewhere.
Sorry, but I can be lazy.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
I'll let you off this time, but you have to visit this thread often...Originally Posted by Virgil
Sorry, but I can be lazy.
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
Since the topic of the Turks is up, what continent is Turkey technically a part of? I always think of it as the gateway between Europe and Asia, as it has elements of both.
Here's what Wikipedia has to say:
Due to its strategic location astride two continents, Turkey's culture has a unique blend of Eastern and Western tradition. A powerful regional presence in the Eurasian landmass with strong historic, cultural and economic influence in the area between Europe in the west and Central Asia in the east, Russia in the north and the Middle East in the south, Turkey has come to acquire increasing strategic significance.
Naked except for a cigarette, you let your mind drift and forget your disbelief. Feel the chill down your back and the flutter of wings through dandelion fields, and forget the pull of gravity in a night without stars.
I lack eloquence and commitment to my arguments. They are half baked, and I will begin passionately, and then abandon them.
I would consider it the same as I would Russia. Back before the fall of the Romanov dynasty, the Czar line was related to the European royal families. Since inbreeding was a problem among the royal families (marrying common people was socially unacceptable), the royal families would cross national lines. While the majority of Russia was obviously in Asia, the heart of the leadership was tied to Europe. The architecture is very much linked to the other Asian styles. Where did the Russian people come from...and what similarities do Constantinople and Moscow have? Both seem to be bridges of the Eurasian gap.
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
Hopefully a Turk will show up and give us their thoughts....
Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda
Constantine the 11th I believe his name was, the last Byzantine Emperor.
Refresh my memory if you can. Constantine (the 1st) was a Roman Caesar in about 325 AD...is that right?
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
This website goes further back but I figured this was what was being discussed:
http://www.turkishodyssey.com/turkey...y/history2.htm
The Byzantine Empire is one of the longest-lasting empires in world history. Its name, which is derived from the name of the city of Byzantium, was given by 19C historians. Byzantines always called and regarded themselves as Romans. In 330 AD Constantine made Byzantium Rome's second capital, naming it Constantinople which meant "city of Constantine".
In 395 AD Theodosius I divided the Roman Empire into two, Eastern and Western. Culturally, the Western part was Latin and the Eastern part was Hellenistic. Soon after, in 476 AD, the Western Roman Empire collapsed and the Eastern Empire survived. The Eastern Romans were Christians and changed their language from Latin to Greek.
Justinian I's successful efforts to reconquer the West followed in the early Byzantine period.
The Middle Byzantine period (610-1081 AD) began with the triumph of Heraclius over the Persians and his subsequent defeat by the Arabs. After 634 AD Arabs seized Palestine, Syria and Egypt and raided deep into Anatolia.
In the 11C, a struggle started between the generals who were great landowners and the bureaucrats. Distracted by this struggle, the emperors were unable to resist the Seljuks, who began conquering Anatolia.
In 1204 AD the Fourth Crusade seized and brutally sacked the capital and established the Latin Empire of Constantinople.
In 1261 AD the ruler of Nicaea regained Constantinople and refounded the Byzantine Empire which had to face threats from Westerners and from Turks in the East. Gradually reduced in area, the Empire finally succumbed in 1453 AD to the Ottoman Turks, who pronounced Constantinople to be the capital of the Ottoman Empire.
In this final period, the landed aristocracy dominated all provincial and central administrative positions of the Byzantine Empire. The army consisted of mercenaries and a "feudal" levy based on government properties awarded to great landlords in return for military service. The Byzantine emperors repeatedly tried to reunify the Orthodox and Catholic churches in return for Western aid against the Turks, but their efforts proved futile.
Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda
[QUOTE=BeccaT;716340]Since the topic of the Turks is up, what continent is Turkey technically a part of?......QUOTE]
You're confused about Turkey - I'm confused about Egypt. I was fairly certain it was in Africa until I renewed my travel insurance after booking a trip to Egypt next year. 'Are you just going to Europe?' asked the insurance agent. Me: ' No, I'm going to Egypt - it was in Africa the last time I looked.' Agent, cheerily, 'Oh, that's all right, it's Europe as far as we are concerned....'
Can I throw further confusion into the discussion? I've always thought of Turkey as being in the Middle East, technically Asia, but not as Asiatic as, say, India or China. Or is India Asiatic - is it still regarded as a sub-continent of itself?
Borders are all arbitrary anyway... as is this grouping of countries into vast an generalized areas such as the "Middle East," the "Balkans", etc. Turkey, according to the way geography is set up right now (though borders have been fluid and will continue to be so, I believe) is part in "Europe" and part in "Asia." Even Istanbul is split in such a way... once you cross the Bosforous bridge you enter the "Asian" side. A lot of Turks, as far as I know, do not like to identify themselves as Middle Eastern, though sometimes because of the religion and culture they are deemed so, and would prefer to be considered as European. Though some do claim the Middle Eastern status.
And Egypt is in no way part of Europe. Not by location at least. But a lot of countries are considered as part of Europe in such a way, like Malta. Though I have never heard that about Egypt before...
"All gods are homemade, and it is we who pull their strings, and so, give them the power to pull ours." -Aldous Huxley
"Sooner murder an infant in its cradle than nurse unacted desires." -William Blake
Those are some interesting points. Too often we group nations and ethnic groups because of their location. I love to study the beginnings of a civilization. That tells a lot about a people.
- If the Turks were originally from the Mongol area, what has influenced them since their origin?
- Who are the Indians? What relates them (or separates them) from the other oriental peoples?
- Why has Egypt been disassociated from Africa?
The middle eastern area does seem as if it is the origin of all ethnicities, branching out in their own direction. What thoughts do you all have concerning the three sons of Noah?
Ham, who is thought by some to be the father of the African ethnicities.
Shem, the father of the Semitic peoples.
Japheth, who is thought by some to be the father the Caucasian/European peoples.
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
^__^ As for Egypt, even if the travel company classed it as part of Europe, geographically, it is definitely and without question a part of Africa.
Naked except for a cigarette, you let your mind drift and forget your disbelief. Feel the chill down your back and the flutter of wings through dandelion fields, and forget the pull of gravity in a night without stars.
I lack eloquence and commitment to my arguments. They are half baked, and I will begin passionately, and then abandon them.
You won't find easily (possibly you won't find) a way to converge science with .. myth. [According to science, man appeared in Africa.]
----
As for Turks, "Constantinople" (Constantinopolis, Byzantion) was first a Greek city, then a Roman one. The region was invaded by the Persians, since the Damascen sultan Salahad al Din began reacting against the Crusades.
So, one thing is the city (geography) and another is the people (culture) who came to take it.
The city has its history, and it isn't attached to one people, specially, as it's been said, in borderlands.
Last edited by librarius_qui; 05-07-2009 at 01:13 PM. Reason: [adding], spelling
Yes.
The Byzantine empire is technically the continuation of the Roman empire. The reason for the distiction I believe is that the official language of the Byzantines changed from Latin to Greek around the sixth century. Even after the fall of the western half of the empire in 476, the Eastern half spent a century and more trying to get it back. The great emperoro Justinian almost recaptured the western half in the sixth century. But even to the fall of the Byzantine empire in 1453, they still considered themselves roman, and used the term Romanoi to refer to themselves. I'm not sure they ever used the term Byzantine. That may have been a later term after their fall. If you haven't noticed, I'm a roman history buff.
Oh I should mention the conquorer of Constantinople, a fine leader and general of the Turkish people, the Sultan Mehmed II. I couldn't remember his name earlier and had to go refresh my memory.
Oh technically Turkey is in Asia I believe, but it straddles both.
Last edited by Virgil; 05-07-2009 at 06:21 PM.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
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