D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

I think you guys passed up discussing the central part of the quoted passage. Here:


There's a lot there to highlight. First, Alfred is wounded in the leg and now limps. It was quite common in post WWI literature to have the soldier return with a wounded leg, suggesting the emasculation from the war experience. TS Eliot's The Wasteland and Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises are examples. It suggests a lack of virileness. This is a story about the ramifications of the war. Alfred has been gone to be a soldier from the first day of their marriage, he has been wounded, while away to the war he's fathered a child, and now has run off from that responsibility. The woman has lost her farm and land and is now dependant on her husband's family. The only emotional connection is the unnatural love between Maggie and Joey. Notice too the bird has "delicate legs," connecting him to Alfred in a strange way. The bird is a sublimated object for the love Maggie should have for her husband. The war has caused a very unnatural situation, unnatural lives.

Wow, good to see you back, Virgil and everyone else....I thought everybody 'flew the coop'.....wait, was that a pun; do peacocks have coops?
Anyway, it was getting mightly lonely in here. I have been reading all the lastest posts.

I have decided next time I pick a short story, to make sure there are no peacocks in the story, especially 'wintry' ones and maybe no letters; that would be a good policy. And Virgil, about peacocks not being in England, are you sure of that? Lawrence's first novel was entitled "The White Peacock". I think they reside in England; why wouldn't they? They are not tropical birds!

Here is something I dug up just now on the web, you will like this,Virgil...

The word peacock actually derives from Old English péa “peacock”, and the –**** (or –hen) was added during the Middle English period in order to distinguish between males and females, as mentioned above. The Old English form comes from Latin pavo “peacock”. The peacock was a native of India, but it was domesticated and then taken to the West by traders. The Romans probably took it to Britain, where their name for the bird was adopted and changed by the Anglo-Saxons. The Latin word is thought to come from Greek taos “peacock”.

I knew they must be proud 'Italian' peacocks!

Well, I don't know where to begin. Maybe, I should let all you duke it out as to which character gets the most sympathy. At this point, jinjang, I am the one throwing my hands up in the air. I am not sure if I should add anything to all of these posts or just wait to post the next part of the text, which I worked on last night, highlighting the phrases and words that I think are significant and would be good to talk about.

Virgil, I did post that part of the text many pages back; but maybe, we did skip over it some. I agree with all you pointed out above about the text. I especially agree with this part and that last statement specifically;

The only emotional connection is the unnatural love between Maggie and Joey. Notice too the bird has "delicate legs," connecting him to Alfred in a strange way. The bird is a sublimated object for the love Maggie should have for her husband. The war has caused a very unnatural situation, unnatural lives.

These war/wasteland references and ideas are excellent and they go along with the text which comes next. Soon we will come to that part in the text, which I think is simply stunning and so reminiscent of the cold wasteland of the war, even though it is in reality England and the snowy area near the spot that the narrator finds Joey stranded. In some sense he brings him home, risking his own strength and possibilty of hurting is own leg, much like a soldier would rescue a fellow soldier in the war. I can't wait to post this section of text. I think it comes next. The more I read it the more the references to war stood out to me.

No question, the contrast between Eliza having a baby and Maggie being childless is very significant. There is so much in this story that one can consider a wasteland: the winter setting, the barren woman, the lack of love, the lack of communication, animals that are unnatural to the environment (peacocks in England?), lies and infidelity, the lack of honest emotional response.

I agree with this, also; you further expanded on my idea of the barren woman, Mrs Goytes in contrast to the fertile woman, Elise. There is much in this story that suggests war and a wasteland which is the result. The war is mimicked in the anger between husband and wife, in their powerplay, in the covert actions, sneaking behind each other such as the letter; suggestive of spying. The result of the war and of this angry marry is a 'wasteland' indeed.

I don't agree with that last sentence, but I do think Lawrence in general did fear female dominance.

Ok, I will buy that for now, but still not sure about it not relating to some feelings of 'duality' in Lawrence himself. Maybe, I was going too far; but he did have a fear or female dominance. Also, as far as the letter is concerned, I think he was protecting the rights of the husband to his privacy. I think the narrator came off as a decent individual and not intentionally siding with anyone. He simply, being male, did see this as an invasion of a man's privacy and his rights, no matter how vile he may have been. I see the narrator as more neutral in all of this. He is wedged between this warring couple. Think of him as the neutral country in the situation of two warring nations. He's not there to add to stir things up. Had he read the exact words he may even have subjected himself to the wrath of Maggie, who knows. Maybe, he was just plain chicken. Also, may men will 'avoid', rather than face something unpleasant, if they have the oportunity to. Tell me you have not done so yourself, Virgil,in certain situations.

Yes, thanks jinjang for those great definitions of 'wintry'....it's an interesting word.

Lord of the earth is a proud peacock.

You should know!

If I do not have anything more to add to all of your posts, do you think I could post it now, Virgil, or tomorrow?

[Virgil]

How about we give the others a chance to comment on what I wrote this evening? And if no one comments by tomorrow night,, then post it.

[jinjang]

Just a quick observation and will get to it more later.

Maggie said, "He'd been through the South African War" which happened between 1899-1902 while the WWI was between 1914 and 1918.
I got the impression that Alfred was a young man around mid 20's and late 20.
If the story happened during the WWI, that would make him close to 40 or older because Alfred went through South African War.

Of course, you all know more than I do and please correct me if I am wrong.

[Virgil]

Just a quick observation and will get to it more later.

Maggie said, "He'd been through the South African War" which happened between 1899-1902 while the WWI was between 1914 and 1918.
I got the impression that Alfred was a young man around mid 20's and late 20.
If the story happened during the WWI, that would make him close to 40 or older because Alfred went through South African War.

Of course, you all know more than I do and please correct me if I am wrong.

That's correct Jin. It also says I think that Allfred has been away for six years. So the time line just doesn't add up. The only thing I can think of is that there was some fighting in South Africa as part of WWI, and that's what Lawrence was referring to. Thanks.

[Janine]

How about we give the others a chance to comment on what I wrote this evening? And if no one comments by tomorrow night,, then post it.

Ok, let me know because I have been working on the next part offline. It begins with the "When I awoke...."

Virgil, I didn't want my offline work to be invane; since it took me sometime to do (formating the bold type). I pretty much commented on your posts, but I can go back over them; see if I missed anything vital or want to further comment on. By now, we should be moving on a bit in the story, but I will wait. It may take till doomsday to complete discussing this story....but really, I'm in no rush.

I am just wondering what has become of our other two discussions in the threads for: The Awakening, that seems to have drifted out to sea; Richard II ; are we on Act V yet; eek...maybe I am the one that is lost? I was hoping we could finish those eventually.

[Sapphire]

Just wow! You all do not do half a job when you analyse a story, do you! Respect...

I just ran into this thread. Or well, Virgil pointed it out to me (thanks ). I think I will spend the night reading I do not know that much about D.H.Lawrence, only read 3 of his books... The first one I even thought to be written by T.E. Lawrence . The only reason why I started it, so I guess it was a good thing I messed those two names up for otherwise I might never have started on him.

Do I understand it right that there is a new story to begin on shortly?

[jinjang]

For me to Maggie the bird is more of a symbol of nostalgia. Something from her past she can hold on, and as she laments not having a place of her own, and she is living with Alfred's parents, Joey is something that Maggie can have that is her own. Joey is a source of comfort to her because she is neglected by her husband.

This is what I said in my first posting: “I wonder if Alfred was jealous of Joey because he sought his wife's affection despite his infidelity or because the bird symbolizes her nostalgia for her "affectionate" home.” We may have been agreeing, all along, on the fact that Joey is a reminder of her home.

Is Joey the bird the title “Wintry Peacok” or is it something broader in the theme of the story?

The more I consider Maggie's attitude and the langauge she usues, the way she responds, the more I am convinved that her lack or rage comes from the fact that she is not in the least bit surprsied.

There were definitely agitations in her private circles. It comes later in the story, I think. Why don’t we wait on this one before deciding that she has lack of rage?


Virgil, I appreciate all your thoughtful remarks, considering everyone's opinions. You are confuzzling-discombobulating-me, though. Let me try to follow your threads.

The peacock means the male element and the cow may mean the female counterpart. I think this is as far-fetched as the claim that Maggie was trying to attract the narrator. The Wintry Peacock may mean the lame cold irresponsible Alfred. The cow implicates the impudent indecisive Maggie or the whole female pack.

I am not yet sure what you are implying the wintry peacock means. Are you saying there was no sex between them hence the barren woman? No wonder then why Alfred felt like getting rid of the bird! Men seem to show aggression when they do not have sex for a long time, which is their vital weakness. Men tend to make too much of or to be easily controlled by their physical needs.

No question, the contrast between Eliza having a baby and Maggie being childless is very significant. There is so much in this story that one can consider a wasteland: the winter setting, the barren woman, the lack of love, the lack of communication, animals that are unnatural to the environment (peacocks in England?), lies and infidelity, the lack of honest emotional response.

I followed you correctly then with the quote above.

I missed this line from the text: “He was driving a gentleman in France for a long time” He was not in the war when he met Elise?!?

Janine and Virgil, you both mentioned that "Lawrence in general did fear female dominance," which implies Dark Muse was right on the assumption that the narrator was in taciturn pact with Alfred.

That's correct Jin. It also says I think that Allfred has been away for six years. So the time line just doesn't add up. The only thing I can think of is that there was some fighting in South Africa as part of WWI, and that's what Lawrence was referring to. Thanks.

Why would he use the capital letters in "the South African War?"

[Virgil]

Just wow! You all do not do half a job when you analyse a story, do you! Respect...

I just ran into this thread. Or well, Virgil pointed it out to me (thanks ). I think I will spend the night reading I do not know that much about D.H.Lawrence, only read 3 of his books... The first one I even thought to be written by T.E. Lawrence . The only reason why I started it, so I guess it was a good thing I messed those two names up for otherwise I might never have started on him.

Do I understand it right that there is a new story to begin on shortly?

Sapphire, three novels is quite a lot. Were you able to go back four or five pages from here to the beginning of this story? That's where the link to the online story is. Glad to have you with us. Don't worry about not knowing Lawrence. We'll fill in the details and just enjoy the story as we dissect it.

[Janine]

Just wow! You all do not do half a job when you analyse a story, do you! Respect...

Hi Saphire, and welcome to the discussion group. Yes, we do really get into the 'nitty gritty' of the story. These are fascinating stories. As we look at the text closer, we usually see so many more things, which one missed on first readings. Lawrence was very complex and very symbolic in his writings; so we take chunks of text and discuss them as we go along.

Do I understand it right that there is a new story to begin on shortly? [/color]

Oh heavens - NO, not yet! We won't be starting a new story for sometime. I will just be posting the next part of this one soon; probably tonight. I have it ready to go with some commentary and hope all will comment on this beautifully and brilliantly written passage of the valley in the snow. I hope you can catch up. We had a flood of posts and already have filled a number of pages; which is unusal and amazing this month; but feel free to read the story and pick up the discussion at the point we are presently.

I just ran into this thread. Or well, Virgil pointed it out to me (thanks ). I think I will spend the night reading I do not know that much about D.H.Lawrence, only read 3 of his books... The first one I even thought to be written by T.E. Lawrence . The only reason why I started it, so I guess it was a good thing I messed those two names up for otherwise I might never have started on him.

Great, Virgil and I like to recruit new people. This month we have a 3 of more newbies which is wonderful. So welcome, Saphire! What a funny story - you thinking it was T.E.; although I think others have mixed the two Lawrence's up, as well. Curious - which of L's three books have you read? With the complexity of Lawrence's work factored it in, 3 books is a lot.

[Virgil]

Is Joey the bird the title “Wintry Peacok” or is it something broader in the theme of the story?

I think it does refer to Joey, though as we come to a full understanding of the story it may become apparent that there is also a broader meaning.

Virgil, I appreciate all your thoughtful remarks, considering everyone's opinions. You are confuzzling-discombobulating-me, though. Let me try to follow your threads.

Yeah I tried to pack a lot in there in a effort to catch up. I understand. I may have been confusing.

The peacock means the male element and the cow may mean the female counterpart. I think this is as far-fetched as the claim that Maggie was trying to attract the narrator. The Wintry Peacock may mean the lame cold irresponsible Alfred. The cow implicates the impudent indecisive Maggie or the whole female pack.

What I'm trying to say is that the peacock is sybolic for the state of manhood in the story. The cow symbolism I admit is a little bit of a stretch. But Lawrence loves to set up contrasts and dualities. So that's why my thoughts went toward the cow as symbolic. Perhaps lawrence was thinking it and never found the narrative need to expand on it and make it significant.

I am not yet sure what you are implying the wintry peacock means. Are you saying there was no sex between them hence the barren woman? No wonder then why Alfred felt like getting rid of the bird! Men seem to show aggression when they do not have sex for a long time, which is their vital weakness. Men tend to make too much of or to be easily controlled by their physical needs.

I'm saying that the central theme of the story is that the war has reduced the state of relations between the sexes to a vacuous state: Women that are barren and men that are effete. Just keep this in mind as we red further.

I missed this line from the text: “He was driving a gentleman in France for a long time” He was not in the war when he met Elise?!?

I don't recall that line either. I will have to go back.

Janine and Virgil, you both mentioned that "Lawrence in general did fear female dominance," which implies Dark Muse was right on the assumption that the narrator was in taciturn pact with Alfred.

I won't say he feared women, though psychologically that may be going on. He did not think women should be in controlling situation. He was very anti-feminist.

Why would he use the capital letters in "the South African War?"

Yeah, I don't know. It dooesn't make sense. Lawrence was not exactly up on his history and hated current events. Maybe it's just a mistake.

[Janine]

This is what I said in my first posting: “I wonder if Alfred was jealous of Joey because he sought his wife's affection despite his infidelity or because the bird symbolizes her nostalgia for her "affectionate" home.” We may have been agreeing, all along, on the fact that Joey is a reminder of her home.

I agree with most of that too, even though you seem to be directing that to Dark Muse. Forgive me for breaking in.

Is Joey the bird the title “Wintry Peacock” or is it something broader in the theme of the story?

That's a very good question. I don't yet know the answer, do you?

There were definitely agitations in her private circles. It comes later in the story, I think. Why don’t we wait on this one before deciding that she has lack of rage?

I agree, good idea. I could see rage within her; wait until we get to that part.

Virgil, I appreciate all your thoughtful remarks, considering everyone's opinions. You are confuzzling-discombobulating-me, though. Let me try to follow your threads.

He tends to do that to people!

I love those words you used, jinjang!

The peacock means the male element and the cow may mean the female counterpart. I think this is as far-fetched as the claim that Maggie was trying to attract the narrator. The Wintry Peacock may mean the lame cold irresponsible Alfred. The cow implicates the impudent indecisive Maggie or the whole female pack.

Virgil tends to do this, too...think of the words in 'sexual' context. He gets a little overly excited.....sorry V, just joking with you! Our Virgil is something, isn't he? He is sort of the Dr. Ruth of the Lawrence thread...our medical advisor. I also, thought it was stretching it a bit, but who really knows how L thought?

I am not yet sure what you are implying the wintry peacock means. Are you saying there was no sex between them hence the barren woman? No wonder then why Alfred felt like getting rid of the bird! Men seem to show aggression when they do not have sex for a long time, which is their vital weakness. Men tend to make too much of or to be easily controlled by their physical needs.

That last statement is sooo true!

I followed you correctly then with the quote above.

I missed this line from the text: “He was driving a gentleman in France for a long time” He was not in the war when he met Elise?!?

Another good question...hummm....was he?

Janine and Virgil, you both mentioned that "Lawrence in general did fear female dominance," which implies Dark Muse was right on the assumption that the narrator was in taciturn pact with Alfred.

Yes, we did; I don't think he had no male feelings towards Alfred in this story; as they say "boys will be boys".

Why would he use the capital letters in "the South African War?"

I have no idea myself about this part. Maybe Virgil knows.

I will post more of the text after dinner...seems like we are ready for more now.....

[Janine]

Here is the next section of text to be discussed:

When I awoke, the morning after this episode, I found the house darkened with deep, soft snow, which had blown against the large west windows, covering them with a screen. I went outside, and saw the valley all white and ghastly below me, the trees beneath black and thin looking like wire, the rock-faces dark between the glistening shroud, and the sky above sombre, heavy, yellowish-dark, much too heavy for this world below of hollow bluey whiteness figured with black. I felt I was in a valley of the dead.

Same passage, with my added highlighting and comments below:

When I awoke, the morning after this episode, I found the house darkened with deep, soft snow, which had blown against the large west windows, covering them with a screen. I went outside, and saw the valley all white and ghastly below me, the trees beneath black and thin looking like wire, the rock-faces dark between the glistening shroud, and the sky above sombre, heavy, yellowish-dark, much too heavy for this world below of hollow bluey whiteness figured with black. I felt I was in a valley of the dead.

Are these war references or what? This passage even reminds me of the trenches, such a well known symbol of WWI. This is surely a ‘wasteland’ , as Virgil pointed out. It’s a cold valley of death. The narrator (Lawence) is seeing this as a ghastly landscape and frightening image, not one of awesome winter beauty, with deep snow and peace. He is noticing instead “the trees beneath black and thin looking like wire.” This line struck me particularly and I thought immediately of barbed wire. Brilliant writing and symbolism in this section of descriptive prose; poetically beautiful and evoking a feeling of death and ghostly whiteness and cold all at the same time. The “rock-faces dark” and “sky above somber, heavy, yellowish-dark” could represent death masks themselves, fallen soldiers scattered on a battlefield, and the putrid air (sky) that lingers above a field of death. Note the stark and specific words he uses such as “shroud” and the “valley of the dead”. Also, I am sure that Lawrence’s recent close encounter with death, himself, has influenced his thinking and he is very much seeing this scene in the light of something much worse - death of the battlefield, the wasteland of war and death.

Same paragraph continued…

And I sensed I was a prisoner, for the snow was everywhere deep, and drifted in places.

Note how the narrator goes on to say "I sensed I was a prisoner," in that statement last statement. Wow, that is amazing writing; so meaningful. The timing is perfect for such a statement.

Same paragraph continued….

So all the morning I remained indoors, looking up the drive at the shrubs so heavily plumed with snow, at the gateposts raised high with a foot or more of extra whiteness. Or I looked down into the white-and-black valley that was utterly motionless and beyond life, a hollow sarcophagus. Nothing stirred the whole day--no plume fell off the shrubs, the valley was as abstracted as a grove of death. I looked over at the tiny, half-buried farms away on the bare uplands beyond the valley hollow, and I thought of Tible in the snow, of the black witch-like little Mrs. Goyte. And [b]the snow seemed to lay me bare to influences I wanted to escape.

Same passage, with my added highlighting and comments below:

So all the morning I remained indoors, looking up the drive at the shrubs so heavily plumed with snow, at the gateposts raised high with a foot or more of extra whiteness. Or I looked down into the white-and-black valley that was utterly motionless and beyond life, a hollow sarcophagus. Nothing stirred the whole day--no plume fell off the shrubs, the valley was as abstracted as a grove of death. I looked over at the tiny, half-buried farms away on the bare uplands beyond the valley hollow, and I thought of Tible in the snow, of the black witch-like little Mrs. Goyte. And [b]the snow seemed to lay me bare to influences I wanted to escape.

And this death/war description continues. I wonder what significance there is to the line “heavily plumed with snow”. It reminds me of a plumed military helmet and also a bird, or the plumes on the peacock’s tail, when he fans it, in his showy manner, to attract a female; although in winter the males lose much of that plumage; which could also be significant in terms of lost masculinity, virility…see how nice I stated that Virgil…
Remember how the wind threw the peacocks off balance..this too could indicate the loss of their control and masculinity, because their tail is diminished...see again how gentily I stated that but I am sure you get my meaning, V. *wink*

The contrast of “white-and-black” in the valley is specifically stated here; interesting. This line especially got to me: “utterly motionless and beyond life, a hollow sarcophagus.” Additionally, this line is pretty incredible: “abstracted as a grove of death”. Even the farms are referred to has "half-buried."

Then the narrator thinks of Tible and the “black witch-like little Mrs. Goyte"….he directly links her witch-like aspect to death, which is rather strange; yet that makes sense somehow. I found the last line beautifully stated. Hadn’t the peacock also escaped from the pursuit of Alfred?

[Dark Muse]

This is what I said in my first posting: “I wonder if Alfred was jealous of Joey because he sought his wife's affection despite his infidelity or because the bird symbolizes her nostalgia for her "affectionate" home.” We may have been agreeing, all along, on the fact that Joey is a reminder of her home.

I agree that Joey is a reminder of her home, but usually the only kind of husbands that are jealous of their wives having ties with their family and past life are abusive husbands (not saying Alfred was physically violent)

But I disagree with you where you seem to think that somehow Maggie's feelings for Joey are a justification for Alfred and that Joey is the problem in their marriage and responsible for Alfred being unfaithful and that Maggie is to blame by turning her affections to Joey.

It is perfectly natural for a woman not to completely sever her ties with her former home, and the kind of men that want that tie completely severed and want to isolate their wives, are petty and insecure.

[Virgil]

Virgil tends to do this, too...think of the words in 'sexual' context. He gets a little overly excited.....sorry V, just joking with you! Our Virgil is something, isn't he? He is sort of the Dr. Ruth of the Lawrence thread...our medical advisor. I also, thought it was stretching it a bit, but who really knows how L thought?

Just tell me that when we get to the bird almost dying in the snow that it doesn't remind one of a limp phallus. Tell me that Lawrence is not making a point about the state of manhood in post WWI society. Sorry if I got "overly excited."

[Janine]

Just tell me that when we get to the bird almost dying in the snow that it doesn't remind one of a limp phallus. Tell me that Lawrence is not making a point about the state of manhood in post WWI society. Sorry if I got "overly excited."

You are too much!!! Now what are the new people suppose to think? Shameful Virgil!

Now that we had our laugh, did you happen to notice, I posted the next part of the text and commented on it? I actually, have my own thoughts about limb Joey, when we get to that part, which goes along with my comments on the 'valley of death' scene. Hope you can directly comment on that part 3 posts back, Virgil.