D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[jinjang]

Please excuse me if I seem a little out of tune with you since I have never seriously participated in literature discussions.

I agree with Janine how beautiful the initial scene descriptions are. It was illustrative and vivid as if I am seeing everything portrayed there. I so miss snow as it reminds me of my home country as Joey does Maggie her home.

Peacocks’ trouble seems to give us the preview of Alfred and Maggie’s skirmish. The gust of wind could be the fight between the couple. The narrator was “curious” to the peacocks as to the Goytes.

“They hopped and skipped with discomfort” parallels with Maggie “brooded,” cried as insinuated with her red nose; “Alfred had a devil-may-care bearing;” Maggie and Alfred had been in “heavy weather” for the last two days.

He saves Joey as he saves the couple’s marriage and restores their life back to normalcy, the normalcy I personally would not wish for because I'd rather know the whole truth. Maggie showed some signs of awareness to the possibility that the narrator might have told her a lie. She may have simply decided to bear with the obscure doubt to live in peace. The cloud may never completely clear as she lives with suspicion.

The narrator “ceased to exist” for Maggie may pair with the birds’ indifference. “And then, in the lee of the walls, they resumed their arch, wintry motion, light and unballasted now their tails were gone, indifferent. They were indifferent to my presence."

My favorite quote is “Her gloomy black eyes softened caressively to me for a moment, with that momentary humility which makes a man lord of the earth.” I should learn those eyes to get what I want.

I wonder if Alfred was jealous of Joey because he sought his wife's affection despite his infidelity or because the bird symbolizes her nostalgia for her "affectionate" home. What is with those "strapping and virile" men who can't be faithful to their wives? Does a war excuse those behaviors?

My favorite character was the father-in-law. Here is my contradiction:I feel the same way with Alfred toward the bird who was interfering innocently.

[Dark Muse]

He saves Joey as he saves the couple’s marriage and restores their life back to normalcy, the normalcy I personally would not wish for because I'd rather know the whole truth. Maggie showed some signs of awareness to the possibility that the narrator might have told her a lie. She may have simply decided to bear with the obscure doubt to live in peace. The cloud may never completely clear as she lives with suspicion.

I do not think he truly saved thier marriage, nor do I think it was his intent to try and do so. I think it more of just a "guy" thing, they were both men so he was going to cove up for him becasue he did not want to betray the husband even though he did not know him. And I hardly thing after this he is suddenly going to become a dedicated husband. The end shows he really has not changed at all, and they are laughing at how clever they think they are and how stupid they think she is.

I wonder if Alfred was jealous of Joey because he sought his wife's affection despite his infidelity or because the bird symbolizes her nostalgia for her "affectionate" home. What is with those "strapping and virile" men who can't be faithful to their wives? Does a war excuse those behaviors?

Joey is more worthy of Maggie's affection than the husband is. I think he is jealous of the bird because he is a small petty man. She would be better off if she left Alfred and ran away with Joey. I do not think anything excuses his behavior.

[Janine]

Let us read with our five senses:
(SHiFTS)
See it -

• There was thin, crisp snow on the ground, (There is not a lot of snow on the ground. Walking among the farms would not be overly difficult, even if the temperatures were colder)

• the sky was blue, (clear skies, no sign of precipitation)

• the ash-twigs up in the sky were pale and luminous (the term pale adds to the state of Europe and its lifelessness)

• then I saw the peacocks (the males in particular are known for their glorious majesty especially in the colorful fan of their tails)

• tailless, brown, speckled birds, (not a specimen of their typical glory)

• with dark-blue necks and ragged crests. (very much a symbol of post war Europe)

• three frail boats opening their feathers like ragged sails (the words frail and ragged again points to the current state of Europe)

• the filigree snow (a reference describing the artistic nature of the snow)

• slow motion, like small, light, flat-bottomed boats (author describes the smooth motions)

• They hopped and skipped with discomfort, to get out of the draught of the wind...(further note concerning the struggle that the peacocks were enduring, I believe is symbolic of the struggle for the recovery that Europe is beginning as the war is coming to a close and people are returning to their normal lives).

Hear it

• a gust of wind (listen to the sound of the wind)

Feel it

• the wind very cold, the air clear

• for an hour or so in the midday (why for such a short time…cold?)

Taste it

• The author gives no explicit reference to taste description

Smell it

• the smell of cow-sheds was unendurable

Wow, I went out today and came home to find two long posts already; I am impressed with you two, Bien and jinjang....and Virgil is probably still reading the story! just kidding Virg.

I will start with Bienvenu, I like the way you took each line for each sense and then designated each significant words or phrases into italics. We often do that on this thread (by either italics or bold-face type). I like the way you pointed out just what we sense in this one short paragraph; indeed Lawrence does more than merely write with words. He was a true artist and paints with all the senses. He makes you feel the wind, the cold, the sun, the wind, the rain, the snow, etc. He causes one to imagine the odors in the air, to hear the wind, feel the cold - experience it all. This I think is the magic of reading Lawrence.He takes you on the same journey with the narrator as he experiences this environment. The direct link to all the aspects of the natural world is typically seen in all of Lawrence‘s work, much as it is in Thomas Hardy, one of Lawrence‘s influences. I agree with you on the references to the current state of Europe and the war; in Lawrences’s Women in Love, war is not mentioned and yet one has the sense of the war in the background of the novel in other ways. Lawrence talks about this in his own forward to the novel. In the same way, this story suggests struggle, both universal and between the characters, as it did in WIL. I also believe the peacocks are personally symbolic to Lawrence himself since the winter he wrote this story he had just recovered from a severe bout with pneumonia, which he nearly died of; therefore, I am sure he would feel a great affinity to Joey and even to the other peacocks stuggling along in the snow and against the wind. If you go back and read my introduction and the notes you will see that Lawrence was forced to survive the winter with his wife in this remote part of England; the going back then had to be rough for him, considering his bad health. He longed at this point, to leave England and live in a warmer, sunnier, drier climate. I am not sure if you are aware, that Lawrence suffered all his life with bad lungs and died at the early age of 42 of TB. While he and his wife were living in Cornwall, he was forced also to go before the military medical board for several very humiliating physicals, to see if he was fit to serve. Then when finally driven out of Cornwall, because Lawrence and his German born wife were suspected of spying, he harbored much recentment, to say the least. Of course, the spy accusations were false. His poor health kept him from ever being drafted; but his humiliation and bitterness stayed with him till the end of his days. He wrote about these experiences in his next full length “Kangaroo”, after leaving England and residing for a time in Australia. So although the war in only briefly mentioned in this story I am sure you are right pointing out the subtext and the suggestion of the unrest in Europe at this time; that would have been very much on the author’s mind personally.

Bien, you have made some very good observations. You pointed out things, I had not previously considered; ha and I have read the story 3 or 4 times! This first simplistic, yet beautiful paragragh says more than it appears to and is illustrates so well the natural setting for the story.

Now, I see that Dark Muse has commented on your post, jinjang, as I was commenting on this post. I will also quote what you wrote and comment after I post this.

[jinjang]

I thought like you, Dark Muse, at first, but I reread the whole story and I decided to give everyone a benefit of doubt. There I searched signs of the narrator's good intentions.

When she embarrassingly said that she did not remember any French learned at school, he said, "No good keeping your mind full of scraps," being agreeable and trying to smooth her embarrassment. Of course, he knew he was "being cajoled" and he put his defense alert. He may have also been attracted by Maggie: "I thought of ... the black witch-like little Mrs. Goyte. And the snow seemed to lay me bare to influences I wanted to escape."

"Therefore I read with a callous heart the effusions of the Belgian Damsel. But then I gathered my attention." Observe the word "but." He also expressed the reluctance by saying, "It's rather behind his back."

He took a good care of Joey. He apparently eased Maggie's mind because she became "flushed and handsome" and "complacent and satisfied" instead of her sallow face when she asked him to read the letter. The narrator definitely gets sympathy and agreement with the father-in-law, listening to his words: "What's good o'makkin' a peck o' trouble over what's far enough off, an' ned niver come no nigher. No-not a smite o'use. That's what I tell 'er." She is not completely over with her gloom because occasionally she has "hulking bearing."

Joey definitely was in the way between Maggie and Alfred. I always promote the peace between a wife and her husband. There is more to a marriage than affection and physical love. It is a partnership that requires compromises, patience, forgiveness, and more. I am not promoting infidelity rather forgiveness and endurance.

The author concealed or obscured clear indications of my points and yours.
He defended Alfred by saying, "You know how anxious women are to fall in love, wife or now wife." “We aren’t all heroes.” And so I could be easily wrong.

[Dark Muse]

I have to quite disagree with you on most accounts here. I think that Joey is not in the way but rather that Joey is Maggie's only true and real companion, she needs the love of Joey becasue she has such a lout of a no-good husband. Without Joey, what joy at all could she find in her life?

In my world, there is no forgiveness when your husband has a bastard child with some french floozy. And I suppose you also would think it is preferctly justifiable for the husband to murder Joey? And that if he follows through with that plan his wife ought to just plaicidy forgive him for that?

There is no indication that the husband is not going to cheat again, so should women just be completely submissive and let thier husbands run about doing whatever they will?

I agree that there might have been some attraction between the narrator and Maggie, and personally I kind of wanted Maggie to hook up with the narrator to get back at her husband.

[Janine]

Please excuse me if I seem a little out of tune with you since I have never seriously participated in literature discussions.

You don't seem one bit out of tune to me, jingjang. I am impressed so far with your and Bien's thinking on this one paragraph. I like how you work on various images and then relate them to later events.

I agree with Janine how beautiful the initial scene descriptions are. It was illustrative and vivid as if I am seeing everything portrayed there. I so miss snow as it reminds me of my home country as Joey does Maggie her home.

I miss snow, too; and we live where it normally snows. We did have two or three little snowstorms this year. One was gorgeous and came at night. I ventured out in the yard, to take some night photos, since I knew that most likely it would be gone next day. Sure enough by noon, it has nearly all melted. I love Lawrence's poetic prose descriptions; as Bien pointed out he causes one to experience it with all our senses and he is so painterly; many do not know that Lawrence loved to paint, as he did write. It certainly shows in all of this writings.

Peacocks’ trouble seems to give us the preview of Alfred and Maggie’s skirmish. The gust of wind could be the fight between the couple. The narrator was “curious” to the peacocks as to the Goytes.

That is a good connection. The struggling peacocks do seem to indicate a sort of survival and the struggle that exists between the husband and wife. The wind could maybe indicate the presense of the letter, which comes between them at this particular time. I also wondered about that word "curious" and now I think I also see that the fact our narrator's curiousity even lead him to speak to the woman in the first place.

“They hopped and skipped with discomfort” parallels with Maggie “brooded,” cried as insinuated with her red nose; “Alfred had a devil-may-care bearing;” Maggie and Alfred had been in “heavy weather” for the last two days.

Also, parallels with the author himself at this time in his life. But, definitely mimicking the struggle/strife between the two, Alfred and Maggie. "heavy weather" is very significant and the weather conditions do mirror this state effectively.

He saves Joey as he saves the couple’s marriage and restores their life back to normalcy, the normalcy I personally would not wish for because I'd rather know the whole truth. Maggie showed some signs of awareness to the possibility that the narrator might have told her a lie. She may have simply decided to bear with the obscure doubt to live in peace. The cloud may never completely clear as she lives with suspicion.

I have to agree with Dark Muse on this one about saving the couple; that would be assuming too much, going too far; I don't think the couple can be saved but no doubt they will exist as they always have for the reasons you point out. You did qualifly your statement by adding "the normalcy I personally would not wish for because I'd rather know the whole truth." So in this sense they couple are in the state of normalcy that they existed in before but they are far from normal or happy in this state; so I understand what you are indicationg. I think Maggie does know the truth but shoves it asside in order to go on as before and endure living with her husband in ignorance and as you say "peace". Right - "The cloud may never completely clear: - good way of putting that and typical of Lawrence's short stories; usually leaving the reader with a question rather than a solution.

The narrator “ceased to exist” for Maggie may pair with the birds’ indifference. “And then, in the lee of the walls, they resumed their arch, wintry motion, light and unballasted now their tails were gone, indifferent. They were indifferent to my presence."

Yes, and the word "indifferent" is prominent here. I think at the end of the story the couple also are 'indifferent' to each other, don't you? Their icy attitudes echo those of the frozen world around them. The couple are also 'indifferent' to the narrator, as you pointed out. His presence in the end has hardly make any difference in their lives.

My favorite quote is “Her gloomy black eyes softened caressively to me for a moment, with that momentary humility which makes a man lord of the earth.” I should learn those eyes to get what I want.

I loved that quote, too. I would like to learn that as well.

I wonder if Alfred was jealous of Joey because he sought his wife's affection despite his infidelity or because the bird symbolizes her nostalgia for her "affectionate" home. What is with those "strapping and virile" men who can't be faithful to their wives? Does a war excuse those behaviors?

Maybe a little of each? I think the husband wanted to be lord over his wife and he knew she preferred the affections of the bird; therefore he was determined to kill it. He took his anger out on poor Joey.

My favorite character was the father-in-law. Here is my contradiction:I feel the same way with Alfred toward the bird who was interfering innocently.

Hhaha...I don't think I have a favorite character or hate any of them really. I think they had issues; but I don't normally hate any characters, because I think that Lawrence makes us see the 'lowest of the low' still as humans with faults; insecurities, deceptions, etc. I liked Joey; probably because he reminded me of a pet goose I once had, that lived on the lake behind my house, who liked to follow me around as I gardened. The father-in-law seemed like an ok man to me, decent.

[jinjang]

I like the fact that you, Dark Muse, disagree with me because my harsh side will say exactly the same. She said both the in-laws were so good to her and she had close ties with the father-in-law, which I conclude from "She could never cross with him." I dislike Joey because I prefer people to animals but I wouldn't like him to be killed unless people are starving. I do not think the husband will have always his way. There was love between them before the war and I am hoping for it to be mended if possible. Alfred said, "Back your life it's a plant." Wouldn't it indicate he meant to stay foot with Maggie and his parents?

The terrible war divides a lot of couples and creates a lot of unfortunate people like Belgian girl and her baby. Would you suggest he goes back to Belgian girl and take care of her and her baby? I am debating within me whether the war is a good enough excuse for infidelity. After all, a lot of Korean and American soldiers went Vietnam and left behind so many of Elise and her baby. It is unfortunate, terribly unfortunate!

[Dark Muse]

Maggie would be better off if he went back to his whore

I prefer animals over people any day and Joey was the only worthy character in the story, though I did like Maggie

Both the men are not worth a lick (and no I am not just a rampid man hater, Janine and Virgil can tell you there have been times I was just as brutal one women chararacters when I felt they were in the wrong)

I am just completely unfrogiving when it comes to infeditility, I do not care what the so-called excuse was.

[Janine]

Maggie would be better off if he went back to his whore

I prefer animals over people any day and Joey was the only worthy character in the story, though I did like Maggie

Both the men are not worth a lick (and no I am not just a rampid man hater, Janine and Virgil can tell you there have been times I was just as brutal one women chararacters when I felt they were in the wrong)

I am just completely unfrogiving when it comes to infeditility, I do not care what the so-called excuse was. If you are so sympathic on the subject I feel sorry for anyone who would be in a relationship with you. Sense you think anything is justifiable and the woman ought to just tolerate it.

Dark Muse, Don't you think that your last statement is a bit combative personally, especially if directed at a newcomer to this discussion group? I am not sure why you are bothering to discuss this story, when you hate it so; you stated that yourself and how strongly negative your feelings are about the characters. If I felt as you did about this story, I would certainly not waste my time any further. And yes, I know all too well how you can hate the female characters as well. You better stick with Joey.

I don't think Lawrence is condoning the action of these characters or the idea of infidelity here, to begin with. I am not sure why you are so set in thinking in that direction. I think this story demonstrates what jinjang has pointed out in his last statement - that a young woman was left behind to care for an innocent child; this being a by-product often of war and prominent in war-time; no matter what era.

[Dark Muse]

Oh I am just having fun.

Ok a note to Everyone:

Don't take the things I say to heart.

I just find it throughly amusing to be disagreeable. I cannot resist an argument.

[jinjang]

I picked on the wrong character!


I am not sure what I would do if that happens to me. I would be Hillary Clinton sticking to her husband. It is totally political: there is no better friend to me and father to my children. Besides, he is like a good pet well-trained. (He is not reading this one.)

Janine, thank you for phrase by phrase comments and it was very informative about the author. I did not know he was a painter as well. It was enlightening.

Let me gather myself a little bit so that I can toss back my points stronger, not that I have any hope of convincing you, Dark Muse.

Thank you for your concern, Janine, but I am not easily offended. Dark Muse and I are just having fun!

[Dark Muse]

Indeed there is just as much a chance of you convincing me as there is of me convincing you.

I think we will both stand firm upon our ground on this issue.

[Janine]

Oh I am just having fun.

Ok a note to Everyone:

Don't take the things I say to heart.

I just find it throughly amusing to be disagreeable. I cannot resist an argument.

Well, I don't think 'being disagreeable' is the goal of this discussion, nor does this thread any good. We are suppose to be discussing this story and enjoying ourselves in the process. I don't think we come here to argue, so to say you "can't resist an argument" is not considerate or to the best interest of this discussion group, in my own opinion. Your last statement about infidelity sounded like a direct attack on jinjang's judgement; therefore, I did not take kindly to it or think it curtious to someone who is new to this thread and forum.

[Janine]

Let me gather myself a little bit so that I can toss back my points stronger, not that I have any hope of convincing you, Dark Muse.

Thank you for your concern, Janine, but I am not easily offended. Dark Muse and I are just having fun!

Ok, good, if you are not offended then we should just drop this and get on with the story. Would you be ready for the next part yet, jinjang? I will post it tonight if you would like to work on it. It may be night there or morning when it is day here. Let me know. I will be up for a little while longer.

And Dark Muse, can we try to have fun here, and get along as we have occasionally in the past; even if Joey is the only redeeming character to this story. I will be anxious to hear Virgil's take on this story. Get reading it, Virgil! For that matter where is Quark? I miss them both!

[Dark Muse]

I equally do not see the point in having a discussion if one is only alloud to say agreable things. What is the bother if I just have to nod my head to everything everyone else says. That does not acomplish very much.