Why I believe in God?

[theatrics]

"I think believing in God provides a comfort."
That is hardly a reason to prove God's existence. God can be COMPLETELY fictional yet still provide us comfort.
You are way to general on other points. For example you gave a reason for sin in the world as follows: [because if we didn't have sin] "the world would become very automated, dull and without spice." You're joking right? That's justification for God, and further, for him allowing sin in the world? Because it would be homogeneously good without sin? Sorry, I can't believe that. I've seen the religious folks come up with A LOT better reasons than that.

[Lynne Fees]

I wholeheartedly agree, an open mind is necessary in learning anything, the bible(s) included. The point of my posts in this thread are to determine a cause for faith in any god though, not just whichever god you subscribe to. I have come to the bible with an open mind before, but I refuse to take it as fact for several reasons not important to this thread.

To keep on topic may I ask you a question? If you're alright with a personal question (you do not have to answer if you do not want to) would you say you believe in a god because of the good things Jesus does for you?

I believe in God because I have studied apologetics (good ex: Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell) and I believe the Bible is God's inspired Word. In the Bible, I have learned God's plan for Jesus to come to earth to redeem mankind. Then, I have studied the Bible and applied its principles to my life. I have seen the peace and joy that comes from that.

[zado_k]

I've pruned drastically for brevity. Apologies if this inadvertantly misrepresents anything.

"Outsiders" are "outside" because they refuse to believe in God.

Where does refusal come into it? I can't decide to believe in god or refuse to believe in god: either the evidence and arguments compel me or they don't! There would be, as I think you imply elsewhere, little point in opportunistically confessing belief that wasn't real: god would know the difference! I'm outside not because I refuse to believe in god but because I simply can't honestly say that I do. I can't pretend to you or to god that I believe it even remotely likely that god exists.

Jakob

[Lynne Fees]

"I think believing in God provides a comfort."
That is hardly a reason to prove God's existence. God can be COMPLETELY fictional yet still provide us comfort.
You are way to general on other points. For example you gave a reason for sin in the world as follows: [because if we didn't have sin] "the world would become very automated, dull and without spice." You're joking right? That's justification for God, and further, for him allowing sin in the world? Because it would be homogeneously good without sin? Sorry, I can't believe that. I've seen the religious folks come up with A LOT better reasons than that.

Think about the world with God not allowing sin (or sickness or injury or death, which entered the world due to sin according to the Bible). What would happen to the laws of physics? For instance, you jump off your roof, fall but are unhurt. Cars crashing into eachother with no dents and no injuries. But worst of all is that man's free will would be gone. An evil person couldn't do any evil - that is why we would all be robots. There would be no way to judge people at all - good people wouldn't do anything bad; bad people wouldn't do anything bad. We'd all just have to die and go to heaven together; what would be the point of Earth at all, then?

[Judas130]

Irenaeus looked at your problem by suggesting that God wished to create Humans perfect but, in our infancy, we could not receive the gift of perfection that had been bestowed upon us. The Fall of Man is seen as a childish mistake of naivety, and that the world, with suffering, is a training ground for humankind to become closer to God, closer to perfection. The Augustine ideals fail in many ways, Irenaeus seems only to postulate...but he has some interesting ideas that are worth delving into, search up the Irenaean theodicy.
There is a stressed discrimination between the 'Image' and the 'Likeness' of God. God created human beings as imperfect (In his likeness) so that they could grow into moral, spiritual and intelligent beings (In his image) who would love him.

peace.

[Lynne Fees]

Irenaeus looked at your problem by suggesting that God wished to create Humans perfect but, in our infancy, we could not receive the gift of perfection that had been bestowed upon us. The Fall of Man is seen as a childish mistake of naivety, and that the world, with suffering, is a training ground for humankind to become closer to God, closer to perfection. The Augustine ideals fail in many ways, Irenaeus seems only to postulate...but he has some interesting ideas that are worth delving into, search up the Irenaean theodicy.
There is a stressed discrimination between the 'Image' and the 'Likeness' of God. God created human beings as imperfect (In his likeness) so that they could grow into moral, spiritual and intelligent beings (In his image) who would love him.

peace.

Or did "in His image" mean that human beings WERE moral, spiritual and intelligent beings, like God? And where we fell off the wagon was when we disobeyed?

[jakobmuller]

I can't respect religion, mainly christianity, as anything more than a story that was fabricated to make people naiively fall in line with other people who believe the same story and thus make them feel justified in doing so.

One huge revelation (pun intended) i've had is that so many elements of christianity are similar to the story of santa claus and the north pole. While this probably sounds silly, since St. Nick was started way after jesus, I have found that whenever someone talks about their faith and how amazing God is, i can't help but think of them as a little kid talking about Santa. Isn't it amazing how Santa can make it around to every house in the whole world in one night? What about how God can hear and act upon billions of prayers every day? If little billy is good this year, he'll get lots of toys; if he's bad, he will get dirty black coal. Lead a God-ful life, you end up in Heaven; A bad one will land you in Hell.

To end the metaphor, most of the core values and morals that many religions teach are the only thing rooted in reality. The majority of would agree that it is bad to steal, kill, and hate; we also tend to agree that it is good to love, appreciate what we have, and be kind to others.

So why do we need a big silly story to back those simple principles up?

Abraham Lincoln once said:

"If I do good, I feel good
If I do bad, I feel bad
and that is my religion."

[Judas130]

Or did "in His image" mean that human beings WERE moral, spiritual and intelligent beings, like God? And where we fell off the wagon was when we disobeyed?

well, that is the Augustine route of argument. That all the suffering in the world is a result of the perverse turning away from God - the fall of man. This creates the moral evil we have in the world. Yet the other fall, the fall of Lucifer and his angels, consequentially produced natural evil..earthquakes etc.
The idea that we were all present in the loins of Adam is biologically impossible, and we should not have to suffer for another person's sin.

[Lynne Fees]

well, that is the Augustine route of argument. That all the suffering in the world is a result of the perverse turning away from God - the fall of man. This creates the moral evil we have in the world. Yet the other fall, the fall of Lucifer and his angels, consequentially produced natural evil..earthquakes etc.
The idea that we were all present in the loins of Adam is biologically impossible, and we should not have to suffer for another person's sin.

I think DNA evidence has traced all of our roots back to the Middle East.
We only personally suffer for our own sin. The world at large suffers from the "moral evil" you described.

[MarkBastable]

In point of fact it is hard not to beleive in God, for without God ultimately everything becomes worthless.

God is an accumulation of our all values in point of fact.

Or, of course, it could be that everything is worthless. The fact that everything would be worthless without God is not enough to make God exist.

If you want everything to have worth, that might be reason to believe God exists. But it's not a mechanism to make him exist

[Lynne Fees]

I can't respect religion, mainly christianity, as anything more than a story that was fabricated to make people naiively fall in line with other people who believe the same story and thus make them feel justified in doing so.

One huge revelation (pun intended) i've had is that so many elements of christianity are similar to the story of santa claus and the north pole. While this probably sounds silly, since St. Nick was started way after jesus, I have found that whenever someone talks about their faith and how amazing God is, i can't help but think of them as a little kid talking about Santa. Isn't it amazing how Santa can make it around to every house in the whole world in one night? What about how God can hear and act upon billions of prayers every day? If little billy is good this year, he'll get lots of toys; if he's bad, he will get dirty black coal. Lead a God-ful life, you end up in Heaven; A bad one will land you in Hell.

To end the metaphor, most of the core values and morals that many religions teach are the only thing rooted in reality. The majority of would agree that it is bad to steal, kill, and hate; we also tend to agree that it is good to love, appreciate what we have, and be kind to others.

So why do we need a big silly story to back those simple principles up?


Abraham Lincoln once said:

"If I do good, I feel good
If I do bad, I feel bad
and that is my religion."

It's funny - I remember praying to God as a child and throwing in right before the Amen, "Oh, could you please tell Santa about the doll I want for Christmas?" I thought they were both sitting up in heaven together hanging out.

Santa, however sadly, is made up. He did not have a historical account like that in the Bible to verify his existence. So it turns out he is make-believe. And the whole "be good, get heaven; be bad, get hell" is just a Santa idea, not God's. None of us can be good enough to please God. God told Moses to tell the Israelites: "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." No mere mortal can be that good! It's a much higher standard than Santa's.

[billyjack]

you should skim over some religious polemics--see if your faith can stand up to the onslaught of a hitchens or a harris

[Judas130]

Or, of course, it could be that everything is worthless.

Not so. Everything, however little, has some abstract and physical worth. The Sun, for example, is not worthless for it is needed for there to be much of the life we see on this planet (and to see naturally at all for that matter).
A hairbrush may be of value and worth to one person, and not to you or I, yet that is not to say it has no worth, for it evidently does to its owner - including the price it cost (thus allowing the seller to become more prosperous), and the materials needed for its existence - and the worth of those materials, and the worth of mechanisms to bring those materials together - as well as the jobs created in the process, and the families it feeds, etc, etc.
What might be a pebble to man, is home or protection for the insect - everything has worth, god or not.

The fact that everything would be worthless without God is not enough to make God exist.


...it's not a mechanism to make him exist

I beg to differ. Anselm already proved that God existed (at least in conception, though his ontological argument in terms of physical existence borders on ridiculous, although rational). Anselm shows us that, in concept, god actually exists. Human beings and the primitive societies that have gone before us, time and time again conclude of a God - to do such is a cognitive mechanism, to have faith allows the mind to expand and indulge, placing trust and respect, even aspects of love, into this abstract God. In this way, God exists through cognitive mechanism. even the Atheist, known as the 'fool' (i do not say this to be cruel) in psalm 53, i believe..or around, who claims not to believe in God, believes in God - for he recognizes a deity in concept to claim it doesn't exist, and through this recognition, the conceptual God exists. I dislike using A priori arguments, but I think it bears some relevance to your statement.

Santa, however sadly, is made up. He did not have a historical account like that in the Bible to verify his existence.

wrong, St Nicholas of Bari is the model for santa clause - He had a reputation for secret gift-giving, such as putting coins in the shoes of those who left them out for him, and thus became the model for Santa Claus, whose English name comes from the German 'Sankt Niklaus.'

"a poor man had three daughters but could not afford a proper dowry for them. This meant that they would remain unmarried and probably, in absence of any other possible employment would have to become prostitutes. Hearing of the poor man's plight, Nicholas decided to help him but being too modest to help the man in public, (or to save the man the humiliation of accepting charity), he went to his house under the cover of night and threw three purses (one for each daughter) filled with gold coins through the window opening into the man's house." (wikipedia 2009)

He is said to have died about 330AD, so the accounts aren't dead certain, but nor is most history (read JBI's ideas in the Bible thread) or the bible for that matter.

[grotto]

Just as an outsider with an opinion, same as every one else here; I don’t think that God is the issue here, it’s “belief” that causes the problem. Human beliefs have killed far more people than any God ever has.

Why is it you believe anything? The existence or non existence belief, it matters not which one you choose, either one will keep you closed minded to the possibilities beyond what you fight so hard to cherish. Your belief is what keeps you bound.

Never mind trying to get people to agree or conform to what you believe, ask why it is that you believe what it is you believe.

[jakobmuller]

The point i attempted to make with the santa analogy is that many christian people try to justify doing so with the same logic as little kids who believe in santa.

Why do you believe in God?
"because He created me and how else could we all exist in such a beautiful world"

Why do you believe in Santa?
"well DUH, how else do you think all these presents got under the tree??!! Who else could have eaten the cookies?!"