Richard II - Act II

[Quark]

It was dynamite! For all it's powerful and beautiful poetry and imagery, much of which relates to nature and England being a garden, untended by the ineffectual Richard, it was explosive stuff.

I like that you think garden symbolism is powerful and beautiful. It is, of course. I've just never heard anyone call it "explosive stuff". When you talk about it, though, are you referring to the garden scene in Act III or do you think it's throughout the play? It's been a while since I've read the play all the way through, so I can't exactly remember all the imagery. I know Richard calls upon nature to fight with him against his enemies when he lands, and that Henry is hiding out in the wilds weed-like. Is there more?

[Janine]

I like that you think garden symbolism is powerful and beautiful. It is, of course. I've just never heard anyone call it "explosive stuff". When you talk about it, though, are you referring to the garden scene in Act III or do you think it's throughout the play? It's been a while since I've read the play all the way through, so I can't exactly remember all the imagery. I know Richard calls upon nature to fight with him against his enemies when he lands, and that Henry is hiding out in the wilds weed-like. Is there more?

Am I lost again? I wondered if there was a Richard II Act III, thread that I am somehow missing out on.

[Virgil]

Sorry I haven't been deligent here. I've had a very busy period at work and I was just too tired to really think through threads that require brain energy.

But there are a couople of more points I wanted to highlight about Act II before I move on.

In scene 2, the Duke of York is faced with the disintegration of the kingdom while the King is away:

God for his mercy! what a tide of woes
Comes rushing on this woeful land at once!
I know not what to do: I would to God,
So my untruth had not provoked him to it,
The king had cut off my head with my brother's.
What, are there no posts dispatch'd for Ireland?
How shall we do for money for these wars?
Come, sister,--cousin, I would say--pray, pardon me.
Go, fellow, get thee home, provide some carts
And bring away the armour that is there.

Exit Servant

Gentlemen, will you go muster men?
If I know how or which way to order these affairs
Thus thrust disorderly into my hands,
Never believe me. Both are my kinsmen:
The one is my sovereign, whom both my oath
And duty bids defend; the other again
Is my kinsman, whom the king hath wrong'd,
Whom conscience and my kindred bids to right.
Well, somewhat we must do. Come, cousin, I'll
Dispose of you.
Gentlemen, go, muster up your men,
And meet me presently at Berkeley.
I should to Plashy too;
But time will not permit: all is uneven,
And every thing is left at six and seven.

His nephew Bolingbroke has re-entered the kingdom despite the banishment. And York feels the tension of a tough decision, support the King or Bolingbroke.
Both are my kinsmen:

The one is my sovereign, whom both my oath
And duty bids defend; the other again
Is my kinsman, whom the king hath wrong'd,
Whom conscience and my kindred bids to right.

I think this squares the conflict face to face for the first time: it's the King's right of power versuses the justice of Bolingbroke's cause.

And in scene III, York meets up with Bolingbroke and asks him why he has violated his banishment agreement.

DUKE OF YORK
Tut, tut!
Grace me no grace, nor uncle me no uncle:
I am no traitor's uncle; and that word 'grace.'
In an ungracious mouth is but profane.
Why have those banish'd and forbidden legs
Dared once to touch a dust of England's ground?
But then more 'why?' why have they dared to march
So many miles upon her peaceful bosom,
Frighting her pale-faced villages with war
And ostentation of despised arms?
Comest thou because the anointed king is hence?
Why, foolish boy, the king is left behind,
And in my loyal bosom lies his power.
Were I but now the lord of such hot youth
As when brave Gaunt, thy father, and myself
Rescued the Black Prince, that young Mars of men,
From forth the ranks of many thousand French,
O, then how quickly should this arm of mine.
Now prisoner to the palsy, chastise thee
And minister correction to thy fault!

HENRY BOLINGBROKE
My gracious uncle, let me know my fault:
On what condition stands it and wherein?

DUKE OF YORK
Even in condition of the worst degree,
In gross rebellion and detested treason:
Thou art a banish'd man, and here art come
Before the expiration of thy time,
In braving arms against thy sovereign.

And Bolingbroke provides an answer:

HENRY BOLINGBROKE
As I was banish'd, I was banish'd Hereford;
But as I come, I come for Lancaster.
And, noble uncle, I beseech your grace
Look on my wrongs with an indifferent eye:
You are my father, for methinks in you
I see old Gaunt alive; O, then, my father,
Will you permit that I shall stand condemn'd
A wandering vagabond; my rights and royalties
Pluck'd from my arms perforce and given away
To upstart unthrifts? Wherefore was I born?
If that my cousin king be King of England,
It must be granted I am Duke of Lancaster.
You have a son, Aumerle, my noble cousin;
Had you first died, and he been thus trod down,
He should have found his uncle Gaunt a father,
To rouse his wrongs and chase them to the bay.
I am denied to sue my livery here,
And yet my letters-patents give me leave:
My father's goods are all distrain'd and sold,
And these and all are all amiss employ'd.
What would you have me do? I am a subject,
And I challenge law: attorneys are denied me;
And therefore, personally I lay my claim
To my inheritance of free descent.

Bolingbroke rationalizes that he comes not as Duke of Hereford, in which title he was banished, but that since his father's death he is now Duke of Lancaster (the title has changed) and he comes in that name and the banishment does not apply. That is the legal maneuvering, but really he is coming to claim his father's property from which the King has attempted to appropriate.

And finally we have a brief dialogue in scene 4 where a captain and the Earl of Salisbury discuss the state of the kingdom. The King has been so absent from the immediate needs that the Captain is actually surprised that he is alive.

Captain
'Tis thought the king is dead; we will not stay.
The bay-trees in our country are all wither'd
And meteors fright the fixed stars of heaven;
The pale-faced moon looks bloody on the earth
And lean-look'd prophets whisper fearful change;
Rich men look sad and ruffians dance and leap,
The one in fear to lose what they enjoy,
The other to enjoy by rage and war:
These signs forerun the death or fall of kings.
Farewell: our countrymen are gone and fled,
As well assured Richard their king is dead.

Richard's army has dispersed because they think him dead. So how will Richard fight? We see with just what incompetence Richard has led. And the earl follows with a short soliloquy:

EARL OF SALISBURY
Ah, Richard, with the eyes of heavy mind
I see thy glory like a shooting star
Fall to the base earth from the firmament.
Thy sun sets weeping in the lowly west,
Witnessing storms to come, woe and unrest:
Thy friends are fled to wait upon thy foes,
And crossly to thy good all fortune goes.

"I see thy glory as a shooting star/fall to the base earth from the firmament." That line characterizes Richard's fall. It's sort of mythological, connected to the heavens and the gods. Richard is etherial, from the sky, incapable of dealing with the base earthly realities. He went to conquor Ireland for the glory of the heavens, but he neglected his immediate realities. Bolingbroke does not think of the heavens; he thinks of the earth.

[Janine]

Sorry I haven't been deligent here. I've had a very busy period at work and I was just too tired to really think through threads that require brain energy.

Understandable. I feel sort of the same way lately. Maybe, I took on too much at once and then just hit a blank wall all of a sudden out of sheer fatique. Once I stopped, I could not get started again. I did read two Lawrence short stories this week, just preparing for our next (hopefully) spring discussion. Other than that I have not been reading very much. I need to finish up reading Richard and watch the play again. It is on my to do list.

But there are a couople of more points I wanted to highlight about Act II before I move on.

In scene 2, the Duke of York is faced with the disintegration of the kingdom while the King is away:

Yes, York seems to be right smack in the middle of all this and questioning his own loyalties. It is a good point to bring up.

His nephew Bolingbroke has re-entered the kingdom despite the banishment. And York feels the tension of a tough decision, support the King or Bolingbroke.
Both are my kinsmen:

That is right - they both are related. I think this cousin/uncle thing makes this whole play more complicated, don't you? As they say "blood is thicker than water". York is in a quantry as to whom he should support at this time. He has seen wrong done to Bolingbroke but he has been loyal to his king and country for a long time now. It must be hard for him to break out of that type thinking especially 'the divine right of kings' mode of thinking at that time.

I think this squares the conflict face to face for the first time: it's the King's right of power versuses the justice of Bolingbroke's cause.

That is a very good way of putting it, Virgil. That makes it a lot clearer to me now.

And in scene III, York meets up with Bolingbroke and asks him why he has violated his banishment agreement.

And Bolingbroke provides an answer:

Bolingbroke rationalizes that he comes not as Duke of Hereford, in which title he was banished, but that since his father's death he is now Duke of Lancaster (the title has changed) and he comes in that name and the banishment does not apply. That is the legal maneuvering, but really he is coming to claim his father's property from which the King has attempted to appropriate.

Good point. I was a little foggy on this part of the play; now this seems clearer to me, as well. Good point; the legal maneuvering is key.

And finally we have a brief dialogue in scene 4 where a captain and the Earl of Salisbury discuss the state of the kingdom. The King has been so absent from the immediate needs that the Captain is actually surprised that he is alive.

Yes, I noticed that remark about him being alive and wondered why he presumed him dead. I suppose, having gone off for a timely period to fight the rebels in Ireland one can see how he and others would make the assumption. Plus, I think in a stage production, one would not get a keen sense of just how much time has gone by since Richard left England on his campaign.

Richard's army has dispersed because they think him dead. So how will Richard fight? We see with just what incompetence Richard has led. And the earl follows with a short soliloquy:

Yes, that is a good sign of lack of leadership - the mere fact they can't find him and presume he is dead. A competent strong king would be larger than life and a huge presence to his troups.

"I see thy glory as a shooting star/fall to the base earth from the firmament." That line characterizes Richard's fall. It's sort of mythological, connected to the heavens and the gods. Richard is etherial, from the sky, incapable of dealing with the base earthly realities. He went to conquor Ireland for the glory of the heavens, but he neglected his immediate realities. Bolingbroke does not think of the heavens; he thinks of the earth.

I like this soliloquoy very much. It forshadows the coming events and the fate of Richard, and yes, I like the way also it is "sort of mythological, connected to the heavens and the gods." Your next remarks after this line is perfect and describes Richard well. Richard's mind is in the poetry and the heavenly aspects of kingly rule; whereas, Bollingbroke is more down-to-earth and with the people; more a natural ruler of all. I think that Richard is more an elevated type king injoying his own magnificence and pomp but not seeing past his own countenence to the common people. Where Richard's view is narrow, Bollingbroke's view is much broader. He sees the whole picture. Richard can hardly see beyond the court.

[MissScarlett]

Can anyone join the discussion, or are you a closed group? Thanks!

[Janine]

Can anyone join the discussion, or are you a closed group? Thanks!

Absolutely! Please do join in. We need discussers badly.
Welcome to the forum and to this group, MissScarlett.

[MissScarlett]

Thank you! I didn't know if posters had to be invited to the groups or not. I love Shakespeare and I love Richard II, but it's not the play I'm most knowledgeable about, however I'll do my best. Thank you so much.

[MissScarlett]

I just joined in, so please take my comments for what they're worth.

I agree with the poster who said the play is filled with gorgeous poetry. I think this is one of Shakespeare's most lyrical plays. In fact, Harold Bloom called it one of a trilogy of lyrical plays, the other two being Romeo and Juliet and A Midsummer Night's Dream. In fact, I think Bloom called it an extended metaphysical lyric.

While I love the gorgeous poetry of the play, I do find the play uneven. The fault, I think lies in the characters and our lack of involvement with them. We can't really empathize with any of them - Richard or Bolingbroke - so we aren't emotionally involved.

I think Richard would have been a great poet had his subject matter been something other than himself and his own dilemmas and problems. He's so focused on himself he loses sight of the bigger picture and what makes poetry truly great. However, the last three acts, I think, are dependent on the gorgeousness of the language, much of it Richard's.

[MissScarlett]

Am I lost again? I wondered if there was a Richard II Act III, thread that I am somehow missing out on.

Reading through the posts, I wondered that, too. I thought the garden scene was Act III, scene iv.

[Janine]

Reading through the posts, I wondered that, too. I thought the garden scene was Act III, scene iv.

Hi MissScarlett, I agree with everything you said. I think another member quoted Bloom or mentioned his review of this play. I think someone did mention the garden scene prematurely, but I was just concerned we had moved onto Act III, because no one was posting for a number of days and I thought I had missed the boat again - that maybe they had moved onto the next Act and I was not aware of it; happens to me in these Shakespeare discussion threads too often. But apparently, that was not yet the case. We are moving like snails in this discussion (as usual) so stay with us. I really haven't finished reading the actual play. I watched the BBC DVD of the play with Derek Jacobi; a fine performance and close enough to the actual text. I guess I am about half-way through the reading. I also want to view the film again, because it is quite good and makes things more clear to me.

I do agree with this remark you made:

While I love the gorgeous poetry of the play, I do find the play uneven. The fault, I think lies in the characters and our lack of involvement with them. We can't really empathize with any of them - Richard or Bolingbroke - so we aren't emotionally involved.

I think this is the problem I have been having with this particular play. I read it years back, but recall being bored with it and not sure why. I saw it as a preliminary to move onward to the history plays that interested me more. I now do agree that the poetry is gorgeous and well constructed but the thing is I just can't connect on a personal level to any of the characters. That is a big problem for me. I usually really enjoy that connection. I could fully connect with Henry V from his first appearance in Henry IV. I could even connect in an odd way to Richard III, with him it was this fascination with his evil ways. I just feel like with Richard II I can't find anything there to connect to. He is so self-absorbed.


While I love the gorgeous poetry of the play, I do find the play uneven. The fault, I think lies in the characters and our lack of involvement with them. We can't really empathize with any of them - Richard or Bolingbroke - so we aren't emotionally involved.

[Quark]

I think this squares the conflict face to face for the first time: it's the King's right of power versuses the justice of Bolingbroke's cause.

And in scene III, York meets up with Bolingbroke and asks him why he has violated his banishment agreement.

Yeah, this is a key moment. We've known for a while now that there was going to be a confrontation and that we would have to ask ourselves who should rule, but Bolingbroke's landing is the event that finally forces the issue. York, though, seems to unload this responsibility. He quickly gives in because he doesn't think his decision would change matters any.

Bolingbroke rationalizes that he comes not as Duke of Hereford, in which title he was banished, but that since his father's death he is now Duke of Lancaster (the title has changed) and he comes in that name and the banishment does not apply. That is the legal maneuvering, but really he is coming to claim his father's property from which the King has attempted to appropriate.

"Maneuvering" is a good way to put it. Henry is twisting the letter of law in order to evade the spirit of the law.

Of course, the entire discussion is a polite cover for the reality of the situaion: Bolingbroke is taking the castle by force. Quibbling over the legality of Bolingbroke's return seems besides the point when he has an overwhelming army. This scene reminds me of the opening of the play when Richard is condemning someone for a crime that he, himself, had a hand in. No one bothers to raise objections because he's in power. Similarly, when Henry has control he tries to gloss over his own crimes.

"I see thy glory as a shooting star/fall to the base earth from the firmament." That line characterizes Richard's fall. It's sort of mythological, connected to the heavens and the gods. Richard is etherial, from the sky, incapable of dealing with the base earthly realities. He went to conquor Ireland for the glory of the heavens, but he neglected his immediate realities. Bolingbroke does not think of the heavens; he thinks of the earth.

I think that Richard is more an elevated type king injoying his own magnificence and pomp but not seeing past his own countenence to the common people. Where Richard's view is narrow, Bollingbroke's view is much broader. He sees the whole picture. Richard can hardly see beyond the court.

I think you're right about the difference between Richard and Bolingbroke. One is rather enterprising, and the other is absorbed in his own thoughts.

The fault, I think lies in the characters and our lack of involvement with them. We can't really empathize with any of them - Richard or Bolingbroke - so we aren't emotionally involved.

The question of sympathies has been raised a few times, and I don't know if we've come to any conclusions yet. You're right that we really can't empathize with either of the kings throughout the play. Each of them commit crimes. Both characters' personality are hard to empathize with. Richard is self-absorbed, and Henry is self-righteous. Richard's theft is pretty galling, but Henry's craftiness seems kind of untrustworthy. I would say, though, that there are situation where I find myself sympathizing with one character or another. When Richard banishes Bolingbroke and confiscates his property, I think Henry is the more sympathetic character. But, when Richard is stabbed at the conclusion, the former king seems more sympathetic. I would say that neither character is able to sustain our empathy, but each has his moments.

[Virgil]

I just joined in, so please take my comments for what they're worth.

I agree with the poster who said the play is filled with gorgeous poetry. I think this is one of Shakespeare's most lyrical plays. In fact, Harold Bloom called it one of a trilogy of lyrical plays, the other two being Romeo and Juliet and A Midsummer Night's Dream. In fact, I think Bloom called it an extended metaphysical lyric.

While I love the gorgeous poetry of the play, I do find the play uneven. The fault, I think lies in the characters and our lack of involvement with them. We can't really empathize with any of them - Richard or Bolingbroke - so we aren't emotionally involved.

I think Richard would have been a great poet had his subject matter been something other than himself and his own dilemmas and problems. He's so focused on himself he loses sight of the bigger picture and what makes poetry truly great. However, the last three acts, I think, are dependent on the gorgeousness of the language, much of it Richard's.

Welcome to the discussion Miss Scarlett and welcome to lit net. You make some good points. I guess you guys (Janine, Quark, and now you) have convinced me that the play is a notch below Shakespeare's great ones, but don't forget this is a history play. And frankly as Quark points out later, we do gain greater and greater empathy for Richard as the play moves along. He was a terrible King, but did he have to die? Unfortunately I'm afraid the answer will be yes. But we'll get to that.

When Richard banishes Bolingbroke and confiscates his property, I think Henry is the more sympathetic character. But, when Richard is stabbed at the conclusion, the former king seems more sympathetic. I would say that neither character is able to sustain our empathy, but each has his moments.

Yes that is a good observation. I feel that way too. We also gain greater sympathy for Richard through his language. The lyricism of it endears us to him, but it also shows he is not constituted to be king.

Well, I'll be on Act III tomorrow.

[MissScarlett]

I agree with all three of you, though the gorgeousness of the poetry causes me not to place the play below Shakespeares' others. I think it's just different.

Our sympathies do sway back and forth from Richard to Bolingbroke, I think, but I agree, there's no one we can really latch on to, no outcome to really hope for. For this reason, I find I'm a little bored with this play from time to time, too. I do think it picks up in Act III.

I need to read the play again, too.

[Janine]

I will answer more later in here but for now, where is Act III; I have hunted for it before but can't seem to find it anywhere. Does a thread even exist dedicated to Act III?

[Virgil]

I agree with all three of you, though the gorgeousness of the poetry causes me not to place the play below Shakespeares' others. I think it's just different.

Our sympathies do sway back and forth from Richard to Bolingbroke, I think, but I agree, there's no one we can really latch on to, no outcome to really hope for. For this reason, I find I'm a little bored with this play from time to time, too. I do think it picks up in Act III.

I need to read the play again, too.

Scarlett, my opionion is much closer to yours than to that of the other two.

Janine, I'll send you the link, but really all you have to do is go to the Shakespeare Discussion Group forum.