Originally Posted by Mathor
Seems like humility and accepting the views and practices of other cultures doesn't matter unless it applies to religion.
yep. it gets old doesn't it?
Seems like humility and accepting the views and practices of other cultures doesn't matter unless it applies to religion.
yep. it gets old doesn't it?
"Don't matter who they are, anybody sets foot in this house, they are company and don't let me catch you remarking on their ways like you were so high and mighty."
Seriously who and what are you guys talking about?
Classic, you said no one here was saying that, if you loved animals you would be a vegetarian, and the person you were replying to said twice in their post they don't, and they weren't, trying to convert anyone.
Riesa, no it doesn't get old. Not because it's okay but because, from what I can see, I don't see it happening. I just.. I didn't see any problem between anyone, and then suddenly come these accusations of shameless vegetarians browbeating everyone. Where did this come from, and if I missed someone's post, and someone was speaking like this, why would you take that and immediately jump to giving up all together?
This is a good point. And if it's not unhumble for me to say, this is not unhumble. It's not abrasive in the least, it's not upbraiding in the least, and it is not browbeating, in the very least.
Again.... even if I missed a post that was upbraiding... it is greatly in the minority. Have faith Riesa and Mathor.
Nik, I wasn't talking about vegetarianism, sorry, I was only focusing on the irony in "Seems like humility and accepting the views and practices of other cultures doesn't matter unless it applies to religion". I apologize for the misunderstanding. I applaud your thread, and vegetarianism.
"Don't matter who they are, anybody sets foot in this house, they are company and don't let me catch you remarking on their ways like you were so high and mighty."
Some of those quotes really are fantastic.
This is just the beginning.
The first part of my post in in response to statements such as "A complete overhaul of the meat industry wouldn't hurt anyone" regardless of whether that person eats meat or doesn't, or tries to convert others or doesn't. I'm saying that the majority of people I've come across, on both sides of the argument, do not have a very thorough understanding of the meat industry but make claims like this one.
The statements I offered as examples of things I have had said to me are often opinions that stem from this lack of education and the extreme views people take towards vegetarianism. This was not a response to the specific poster, but to people in general.
Make more sense?
I'm weary with right-angles, abbreviated daylight,
Waiting for a winter to be done.
Why do I still see you in every mirrored window,
In all that I could never overcome?
Of course. It was a misunderstanding on my part.The first part of my post in in response to statements such as "A complete overhaul of the meat industry wouldn't hurt anyone" regardless of whether that person eats meat or doesn't, or tries to convert others or doesn't. I'm saying that the majority of people I've come across, on both sides of the argument, do not have a very thorough understanding of the meat industry but make claims like this one.
The statements I offered as examples of things I have had said to me are often opinions that stem from this lack of education and the extreme views people take towards vegetarianism. This was not a response to the specific poster, but to people in general.
Make more sense?
No worries
I'm weary with right-angles, abbreviated daylight,
Waiting for a winter to be done.
Why do I still see you in every mirrored window,
In all that I could never overcome?
Oh, how many times I must have overlooked this thread! Fascinating quotes, NikolaiI - thanks for sharing them.
As an ovo-lacto vegetarian, vegetarianism to me does not seem so much a choice as to what we put into our gastrointestinal tracts, as how someone orders either a soup or salad for an appetizer at a restaurant, but deeply a lifestyle, and I take it very seriously. Most people in the world do not eat grass. Why? Because most people do not consider it food, even though, if consumed, it would likely have some nutritional value. I refuse to eat meat; if I did eat it, it may have some nutritional value to me, though after almost 8 years of not eating it I have likely stopped producing the necessary enzymes, but, just as most people do not consider grass a food, I no longer consider meat a food. Meat does not disgust me, and, while cooking for other people, I do not wince in the least while cooking meat for them, yet I would sooner consume the cast-iron skillet or baking sheet before the contents.
Why did I become vegetarian years ago? I get this question a lot and it gets a bit repetitious and annoying from time to time. I feel that I never 'became' vegetarian, on the contrary, and I never pronounced myself vegetarian when deciding to stop eating meat; it felt very natural that one day, at age 19, I stopped eating meat. From childhood to age 19, I would frequently get very ill, and doctors attempted to rule out diagnoses like irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), lupus (SLE), and Crohn's disease, but all results proved negative; not once since age 19 have I had even one episode of excruciating abdominal pain after eating - one could blame it on meat, or on my gastrointestinal tract lacking the necessary enzymes to digest meat, perhaps both.
I did not 'become' vegetarian for health reasons, animal rights, environmentalism, spirituality, religion - nothing - it just felt natural, and these contingencies seem to 'come with the territory,' so to speak. We live in a world much more accepting of vegetarian and vegan ways, as opposed to Ralph Waldo Emerson's time, another notorious vegetarian, and, compared to starving children in less-industrialized countries who have little to eat, let alone much to choose from, we have a lot of choice - sometimes too much that we favor junkfood on the grocery store shelf for its taste over the organic produce.
I have put a lot of thought into what resulted in my ending up a vegetarian by almost no choice or valid reason. In applying Arthur Schopenhauer's idea of the Will and Determinism, I feel that nothing had a significant influence on my vegetarian ideas besides myself. I recall once, at about age 5, my father raised cattle and pigs; as afraid as I felt of them, due to their immense size, I loved watching them graze their fields, helped feed them, and clean after them. When my father had them slaughtered for food, I would associate a negative connotation with consuming something I helped tend; I could grow a garden of various vegetables and fruit, but an apple tree survives getting one apple plucked from its branches; once the cows and pigs, that I helped name, got slaughtered, they lay dead on the serving platter. After multiple times encountering this negative connotation and its subconscious cascade, I think Schopenhauer's determinism made me forever associate, in a non-religious animal rights manner, animals as companions rather than food.
As a note to other vegetarians and omnivores, let us not turn this into a battle. Just as no one enjoys wearing the same clothing, no one carries the same beliefs of what we consume, and preaching what seems best to introduce to the stomach hurts more than aides your cause. Even as a vegetarian, the preachy types of vegetarians and vegans irritate me to no end; on the other end of the spectrum, I have gotten asked to leave a restaurant in the midwest U.S. by the waitress because I asked if one specific soup had a meat base, since "we dun't serve yer kaind here." Between the same hunters and gatherers we all evolved from, we all require nourishment, and, at the Thanksgiving dinner table, the more turkey you eat leaves me more potatoes and cranberry sauce.
haha. I've actually never eaten turkey on thanskgiving. I always try to pretend i did, like I remember back in the day I would get a plate and put not much on it and finish it in like a minute and say "well i guess i've had my fill of turkey, i should probably move on to something else". It fooled people for a while, till finally my relatives caught on that I do not like turkey in the least bit. Nor do I really like any meats, though I'm not vegetarian. I'm a meat eater but I do not like meat. It's interesting. I just don't want to say "i do not eat meat", cause that's like saying "i do not eat mushrooms", i do not like mushrooms, but it'd be rude if someone asked me if i wanted mushrooms with my meal and i said "i do not eat mushrooms". And that's why i'm not vegetarian. I have no religious reasons to not like meat, I simply just don't like it, but at times there are occasions when I'm required to force it down, the same goes for mushrooms. So i wouldn't call myself a meat-eater, just like i wouldn't call myself a "mushroom-eater". But I certainly eat it, when my parents make it etc etc. Thanksgiving is nice cause it's usually more buffet style, and i don't have to be like "no i don't want that". I eat what i'm given, but i wouldn't select meat per say if i had another option.
I'm losing all those stupid games
That I swore I'd never play
OMG, this was a fantastic post. Mono, I salute you. You have said so very much in such a small space, bravo. Bravo.Oh, how many times I must have overlooked this thread! Fascinating quotes, NikolaiI - thanks for sharing them.
As an ovo-lacto vegetarian, vegetarianism to me does not seem so much a choice as to what we put into our gastrointestinal tracts, as how someone orders either a soup or salad for an appetizer at a restaurant, but deeply a lifestyle, and I take it very seriously. Most people in the world do not eat grass. Why? Because most people do not consider it food, even though, if consumed, it would likely have some nutritional value. I refuse to eat meat; if I did eat it, it may have some nutritional value to me, though after almost 8 years of not eating it I have likely stopped producing the necessary enzymes, but, just as most people do not consider grass a food, I no longer consider meat a food. Meat does not disgust me, and, while cooking for other people, I do not wince in the least while cooking meat for them, yet I would sooner consume the cast-iron skillet or baking sheet before the contents.
Why did I become vegetarian years ago? I get this question a lot and it gets a bit repetitious and annoying from time to time. I feel that I never 'became' vegetarian, on the contrary, and I never pronounced myself vegetarian when deciding to stop eating meat; it felt very natural that one day, at age 19, I stopped eating meat. From childhood to age 19, I would frequently get very ill, and doctors attempted to rule out diagnoses like irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), lupus (SLE), and Crohn's disease, but all results proved negative; not once since age 19 have I had even one episode of excruciating abdominal pain after eating - one could blame it on meat, or on my gastrointestinal tract lacking the necessary enzymes to digest meat, perhaps both.
I did not 'become' vegetarian for health reasons, animal rights, environmentalism, spirituality, religion - nothing - it just felt natural, and these contingencies seem to 'come with the territory,' so to speak. We live in a world much more accepting of vegetarian and vegan ways, as opposed to Ralph Waldo Emerson's time, another notorious vegetarian, and, compared to starving children in less-industrialized countries who have little to eat, let alone much to choose from, we have a lot of choice - sometimes too much that we favor junkfood on the grocery store shelf for its taste over the organic produce.
I have put a lot of thought into what resulted in my ending up a vegetarian by almost no choice or valid reason. In applying Arthur Schopenhauer's idea of the Will and Determinism, I feel that nothing had a significant influence on my vegetarian ideas besides myself. I recall once, at about age 5, my father raised cattle and pigs; as afraid as I felt of them, due to their immense size, I loved watching them graze their fields, helped feed them, and clean after them. When my father had them slaughtered for food, I would associate a negative connotation with consuming something I helped tend; I could grow a garden of various vegetables and fruit, but an apple tree survives getting one apple plucked from its branches; once the cows and pigs, that I helped name, got slaughtered, they lay dead on the serving platter. After multiple times encountering this negative connotation and its subconscious cascade, I think Schopenhauer's determinism made me forever associate, in a non-religious animal rights manner, animals as companions rather than food.
As a note to other vegetarians and omnivores, let us not turn this into a battle. Just as no one enjoys wearing the same clothing, no one carries the same beliefs of what we consume, and preaching what seems best to introduce to the stomach hurts more than aides your cause. Even as a vegetarian, the preachy types of vegetarians and vegans irritate me to no end; on the other end of the spectrum, I have gotten asked to leave a restaurant in the midwest U.S. by the waitress because I asked if one specific soup had a meat base, since "we dun't serve yer kaind here." Between the same hunters and gatherers we all evolved from, we all require nourishment, and, at the Thanksgiving dinner table, the more turkey you eat leaves me more potatoes and cranberry sauce.
Our task must be to free ourselves by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty
~Albert Einstein
I agree, that is the best explanation I think anyone has ever given me for their vegetarianism or omnivorism (if that's a real word, which I doubt).
I'm weary with right-angles, abbreviated daylight,
Waiting for a winter to be done.
Why do I still see you in every mirrored window,
In all that I could never overcome?
OMG, this was a fantastic post. Mono, I salute you. You have said so very much in such a small space, bravo. Bravo.Thanks, you two.
I think the simplest reason for me is that I don't require, in my moral system, a being to have an intellect equal to mine, or the powers of reason, for them to have the right to life, and for me not to have the right to kill them. There are humans who fit this description, for instance, and yet they are still protected by law. In fact, it's possible for a human to have no skills in language or reason, either because they have atrophied or because they never learned them at all, or because of mental damage done by an accident, drugs, or even a mental illness. All of these are protected by law. Animals have an equal right in my eyes.
To put myself in the place of the animal; if some alien species came to earth, and they were more intelligent, had better reason, and could over power us, and then they started killing us and eating us, even breeding us and keeping us from moving about or leading anything remotely similar to our accustomed lives, at the end of which again killing us for food; no human would agree with this, no human would give their life willingly. Why should we? Because they have a higher intelligence? Two things: what we are doing with animals is absolutely no different. And second, a race more intelligent han us would probably not do this to us, because good traits in general run together: kindness, intelligence, discipline, etc.
So just to put myself in the place of the animals is enough for me. And again, I find it absurd to justify it by saying, it is the natural order. No being wants to die, or live in captivity, or suffer - and, as it happens, unnecessarily. One quote when I was looking for them to start this thread said, "some people say we've been doing it for thousands of years. But then we've also been killing each other for thousands of years, and it is not a good thing."
But my main philosophical reason for it is, again, simply by considering it from the animals point of view. And my knowledge that vegetarianism is healthier. I would like to be a three-time Triathlon winner.
Simply put: higher intelligence does not give the right to kill the life of those with lesser intelligence. I am not a vegetarian because of the good moral arguments for it. I am a vegetarian, and I cannot reconcile myself to the philosophical idea, which seems debunkt, that intelligence greater intelligence gives a right to kill those with lesser.
Last edited by NikolaiI; 03-21-2009 at 01:02 PM.
Interesting opinion. But it's true. Don't get others to do the dirty work for you-- if you couldn't slaughter a chicken, you shouldn't be eating one. A few years ago, my biology class was dissecting pigs, and several people in the class (whom I knew to be meat-eaters) got red-faced and watery-eyed when they saw the cute little dead piglets. I don't understand that-- if you eat pork, you should have no problem seeing or dissecting a dead pig! If you're squeamish, how on earth can you eat the flesh of an animal?
Now, cute dead animals don't bother me (I have seen many a deer skinned and butchered in my garage), but I'm still a vegetarian, and that's because there are a bunch of other good reasons for abstaining from eating meat, most of which have been mentioned in previous posts.
But seriously-- when people argue that humans are natural omnivores and that our primitive ancestors ate meat, they're overlooking the fact that our ancestors wouldn't have been eating meat every day. You have to work pretty hard to hunt something-- imagine hunting something twice a day every day. Not easy. Primitive humans would have considered meat a special treat, and their typical diet would have consisted of plants and grains and such. So we are natural omnivores, but we're not supposed to be eating meat in abundance.
All that lives is born to die. That includes bean sprouts, carrots and things with cute little eyes. Only humans give special preferences to certain forms of life.
I am neither for nor against vegetarianism, I think if some one chooses a lifestyle for their own personal reasons, so be it. My only objection is when some seem to think they know better what life is and what is important and shoves it down my throat while expounding the virtues of saving the earth and life while they stand there with there bottled water, the Starbucks coffee made from paper where life was lost in the process of the making along with the plastic lid on the cup and they are wearing an entirely plastic wardrobe.
The earth doesn’t need us to save it, it has been going on for millions of years, continually reinventing it self. Since when do we humans think that we know what is best for everyone and everything?
NikolaiI, you quote many people in defense of vegetarianisms. I have no problem with that and this isn’t meant to be mean, but your tag quote from Alan Watts doesn’t come from a vegetarian, if you like Mr. Watts, read “Murder in the Kitchen”, a chapter in the book, “Does it Matter”.
Plant an acorn and you get a mighty oak! Very true! Is it murder if I eat the acorn and kept it from being a mighty oak? Kill a sheep and it gives nothing but decay? Oh a very wrong and simplistic view! There are many life forms that will flourish in the decay process including the acorn that will use the decay as food to become a mighty oak.
We will all return to the earth by some means and at some time, our bodies are not immune to the process, no matter how hard we try.
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