Is is ok for a grown man to cry?

[Janine]

Whatever your opinion on whether men should cry in public, can we at least stop the pop psychiatry? There is no evidence that holding back emotion publically leads to mental illness. Mental illness is a chemical problem in the brain. It is not this silly "if I hold emotions I will go crazy" canard. If this were the case, then why are not millions of men that do not publically cry mentally ill? Why am I not mentally ill? (No, despite what some might think I'm not )

You said it, not me! I do sometimes wonder.....hahaha. Hey, Virgil, is this outburst directed at me? I am talking mental illness in my post. I merely stated that holding back emotions does lead often to depression; also I was not necessarily talking about public tears, although I see nothing wrong with those. Say you just saw your only child killed or your son came home dead from a war, don't you think it would be acceptable to see a father cry in these instances? Believe me, I have known men who lost sons tragically and would not show a shred of a tear or even emotion; later on they had deep-seeded problems and I can't help but think they never dealt with their feelings towards the tragedy.

Why is my mother, who is a very publically emotional person, on depression medication? By this logic, would Italians, who are probably more openly emotional, less inclined to mental illness than say, Scandinavians, who by stereotype are supposed to be less emotional in public (though I admit I don't know that from personal experience)? Show me the statistics.

Probably because your mother has a stubborn son like you! One would seriously have to do a study; I actually think some have been done so you would just have to research the findings. I don't think this is pop psychiatry - psychiatrists treat with medications and are fully trained physcians. We talking about more about psychological impact on the individual, not about full-blown mental illness. Many people suffer depression everyday - some is just natural to life and some is a true mental disease.

And even though a man or woman does not publically display sobbing, doesn't mean they don't let that emotion out in private.

Agreed; but if circumstances warrant it in public I don't see anything wrong with showing the emotion. Like I said in extreme occurances such as seeing a loved one be killed in front of you, then I think tears are totally necessary. Often on new reports one sees men crying over losing their families during natural disasters. Those tears are very public; I don't see anything unnatural about them or demeaning to the poor man or woman, for that matter.

Let's stop with the pop psychiatry.

Is that phrase something like your old catch-all, psychobabble? haha We are not talking psychiatry to begin with.

[Virgil]

Whatta ye want from us, Virge??! We're all pop here! hahaha! My graduation's in Latin Language & Literature!

I have found literature students to be the absolute worst when it comes to pop psychiatry. Perhaps because they deal with characters in books who's psychology is important to understand. But because something is in a novel doesn't make it real.

You said it, not me! I do sometimes wonder.....hahaha. Hey, Virgil, is this outburst directed at me?

Well, you weren't the only one. Others in the thread have brought it up. Perhaps yours was the most comprehensive statement on the subject.

I merely stated that holding back emotions does lead often to depression

How do you know that? Where is the evidence for that? Did you learn that in school or did you pick that up in anectdotal conversation? Where's the evidence? How come millions of people who don't publically show emotion are not mentally ill?

Say you just saw your only child killed or your son came home dead from a war, don't you think it would be acceptable to see a father cry in these instances? Believe me, I have known men who lost sons tragically and would not show a shred of a tear or even emotion; later on they had deep-seeded problems and I can't help but think they never dealt with their feelings towards the tragedy.

I think I voted for rare occaisions. That might be a rare occaision.

Probably because your mother has a stubborn son like you! One would seriously have to do a study; I actually think some have been done so you would just have to research the findings. I don't think this is pop psychiatry - psychiatrists treat with medications and are fully trained physcians. We talking about more about psychological impact on the individual, not about full-blown mental illness. Many people suffer depression everyday - some is just natural to life and some is a true mental disease.

That's right, many people suffer depression, and I bet they were no different in displaying emotion that the ones that are depressed. And how do you know which is the cause and the effect? Why do you assume that holding emtion leads to mental illness instead of mental illness leading to holding emotion?

Is that phrase something like your old catch-all, psychobabble? haha We are not talking psychiatry to begin with.

Haha, yes!! It's all psychobabble and you know how psychobabble sets me off.

[TheFifthElement]

A word on depression:

That's right, many people suffer depression, and I bet they were no different in displaying emotion that the ones that are depressed. And how do you know which is the cause and the effect? Why do you assume that holding emtion leads to mental illness instead of mental illness leading to holding emotion?

Apart from the fact that little of the above statement makes sense, I think there's a valid challenge in there, specifically: 'And how do you know which is the cause and the effect?'.

I think there needs to be a better understanding of depression. Too many people are on anti-depressents when they don't need to be. It's too easy for the doctor to prescribe instead of understand.

I've known 4 people who have suffered with 'true' depression. In all 4 cases they were ordinary people who were faced with, what they felt were, impossible life choices: a man whose wife wanted children and he did not faced with a choice of having children he doesn't want or losing his wife; a man who considers himself (and is) a good father feeling tethered to his disabled daughter facing a life in which he is never free from her or the guilt of, on some level, wanting to be free from her; a man who has to choose between his children and his wife, a woman who has to choose between the life she wants and the life she has, caring for sick parents. In all cases they have been people who have 'coped' but at some point reached that point where life had ground them down completely. My impression is that their brain faced this as a 'computer says no' scenario and simply shut down normal operations. In all cases it was only after acknowledging the true cause of their problem that they started to recover. Depressed people don't cry. Depressed people don't do anything. But often depression starts with self-deception, and in that respect not facing, but rather withholding 'truth' from yourself can lead to depression.


I have some questions:

- why is it okay to laugh raucously in public but not cry?

- why is public crying often greeted with derision or disgust, and not compassion?

- the man who slumps down in the street and cries may have lost himself, the person who passes him by with a sneer - what's their excuse?

- what are you afraid of?

- Is 'image' more important than 'honesty'?

[librarius_qui]

I have some questions:

- why is it okay to laugh raucously in public but not cry?

- why is public crying often greeted with derision or disgust, and not

- the man who slumps down in the street and cries may have lost himself,

- what are you afraid of?

- Is 'image' more important than 'honesty'?

- why is it okay to laugh raucously in public but not cry?
laughing has a different effect than crying, no doubt of that!

- why is public crying often greeted with derision or disgust, and not compassion?
not always; usually, to tell the truth, when anyone's crying at a public place, he/she is helped, either by compassionate people, or to local civil servants, so, I don't see your point with this question, 5th ...

- the man who slumps down in the street and cries may have lost himself, the person who passes him by with a sneer - what's their excuse?
--

- what are you afraid of?
fear that makes a man cry isn't racional ones, usually; it has to do with facing a moment he thinks he's defeated, he thinks he can't go on, something like; he cries, he thinks, he figures things out, and he goes ahead; when situation isn't that bad (death, relevant loss (job, a lot of money ...), something like), we don't even cry, we simply figure it out, and go ahead; perfectly normal, but not perfectly rational
you won't see a man thinking "I'm going to cry, because of ..."; no, it's something of moment

- Is 'image' more important than 'honesty'?
it depends on the person; man are taught (and NOT by parents, on the contrary ...) not to weep, not to cry; it's "nature" (actually, it's human nature, which is culture ...); effects of this in charater will vary on the person; each one will figure these questions/matters, and learn from them in a way; we hope people learn that being honest is better, but even an honest man may face a very honest moment of trying to hide his tears, because he's ashamed of them, because he is man
so, there's no logic in it; there's culture as well

& it isn't bad; good that men are what we are, and women are what you are, otherwise, how could we get along so well together?

[TheFifthElement]

Lib, I love that you answered the questions.

They are more aimed at those who think one shouldn't cry in public.

I disagree with your answer to question 2. In my experience most people walk by. And I did say often not always

I found this statement really interesting:

it has to do with facing a moment he thinks he's defeated,

because I'd say the same is probably true for women, and children.

I wonder, then, if crying is still equated with a lack of power? Women and children are less 'powerful' physically than men therefore the point at which they experience frustration or defeat is lower, or rather it is more common, so they cry more. For a man to cry in public it is a public admission of defeat or powerlessness, hence, perhaps, the reason some have admitting to finding men crying revolting? Why crying is considered somehow reprehensible where laughing (which is equally pointless and, in some cases, quite revolting!) is not?

[librarius_qui]

Lib, I love that you answered the questions.

(...)

I found this statement really interesting:

because I'd say the same is probably true for women, and children.

I wonder, then, if crying is still equated with a lack of power? Women and children are less 'powerful' physically than men therefore the point at which they experience frustration or defeat is lower, or rather it is more common, so they cry more. For a man to cry in public it is a public admission of defeat or powerlessness, hence, perhaps, the reason some have admitting to finding men crying revolting? Why crying is considered somehow reprehensible where laughing (which is equally pointless and, in some cases, quite revolting!) is not?

Now, this is 'very interesting thought, lass!
I think we might agree with it ...

As the crying and laughing, ... Theatre has always ... er, in the Western world, since the Greeks, meant to make people to cry. Nowadays, we are still faced with it, watching certain movies ...

As well as laughing.

It's a little different subject, though, because both tragedy and comedy are meant for us to cry and laugh by comparing our own tragedies or stubornesses with other people's (characters'). It's different of seeing someone crying in the streets, all right.

But, even when someone laughs at the streets, for instance, when someone stumbles, he's behaving like "oh good that it was him, not me!" (and then you go, and help the person, even if you had even only internally laughed ...). (Or you don't.)

(Helping people outside is a matter of how grave the situation is, in a function with how "hurry" (&/or selfish) you are. I like to walk on the streets without hurry. And look, I live in a reputedly violent city ...)

--

I think laughing isn't considered revolting because it's someone else's defeat, and we live in a cruel world. Others can be defeated, but you?! ...~

[Eugenie]

If a man is alcholic and is a crier, it just makes me sad. But if he is a 'normal' whatever that is gentleman and something hurts him enough to make him cry, it is devestating to me. I usually will cry too, don't know why .

[AimusSage]

I sometimes cry from laughing...

Also I always cry myself to sleep, cry when I see a really, really sad film, The type where everyone dies in the end. I also cry when I peel unions, or when I am sad, but not so much when I am sad, it's better to not cry when sad and take action instead, although that action usually involve a bottle of the good old Glenlivet.

But I never cry in public. Not that I have anything against crying in public, it's just annoying because my make up gets all messed up, so I figure I rather wait a bit and cry when I get home instead or take a bottle of the Glenlivet. whichever I find is more comforting.

Now that I think about, I cry a lot. well if you belief all I said that is. At least the Glenlivet is still resting on the mantelpiece.

[Virgil]

A word on depression:


Apart from the fact that little of the above statement makes sense, I think there's a valid challenge in there, specifically: 'And how do you know which is the cause and the effect?'.

Hehe, I see I bungled the writing. I meant to say the following:

That's right, many people suffer depression, and I bet they were no different in displaying emotion that the ones that are not depressed.

I think there needs to be a better understanding of depression. Too many people are on anti-depressents when they don't need to be. It's too easy for the doctor to prescribe instead of understand.

Anything dealing with brain function is not completely understood. But it's a lot more understood than you might think. Here is a good understanding of depression: http://www.medicinenet.com/depression/article.htm

I think what causes depression is pertinet to the conversation and so I will qute it entirely:

What are the causes of depression?

Some types of depression run in families, indicating that a biological vulnerability to depression can be inherited. This seems to be the case especially with bipolar disorder. Studies have been done of families in which members of each generation develop bipolar disorder. The investigators found that those with the illness have a somewhat different genetic makeup than those who do not become ill. However, the reverse is not true. That is, not everybody with the genetic makeup that causes vulnerability to bipolar disorder will develop the illness. Apparently, additional factors, possibly a stressful environment, are involved in its onset and protective factors are involved in its prevention.

Major depression also seems to occur in generation after generation in some families, although not as strongly as in bipolar I or II. Indeed, major depression can also occur in people who have no family history of depression.

An external event often seems to initiate an episode of depression. Thus, a serious loss, chronic illness, difficult relationship, financial problem, or any unwelcome change in life patterns can trigger a depressive episode. Very often, a combination of genetic, psychological, and environmental factors is involved in the onset of a depressive disorder.

Nothing in the universe is as complex and fascinating as the human brain. The over 100 chemicals that circulate in the brain are known as neurochemicals or neurotransmitters. Much of our research and knowledge, however, has focused on four of these neurochemical systems: norepinephrine, serotonin, dopamine, and acetylcholine. In the new millennium, after new discoveries are made, it is possible that these four neurochemicals will be viewed as the "black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood" of the 20th century.

Different neuropsychiatric illnesses seem to be associated with an overabundance or a lack of some of these neurochemicals in certain parts of the brain. For example, a lack of dopamine at the base of the brain causes Parkinson's disease. Alzheimer dementia seems to be related to lower acetylcholine levels in the brain. The addictive disorders are under the influence of the neurochemical dopamine. That is to say, drugs and alcohol work by releasing dopamine in the brain. The dopamine causes euphoria, which is a pleasant sensation. Repeated use of drugs or alcohol, however, desensitizes the dopamine system, which means that the system gets used to the drugs and alcohol. Therefore, a person needs more drugs or alcohol to achieve the same high feeling. Thus, the addicted person takes more substance but feels less and less high.

The different types of schizophrenia are associated with an imbalance of dopamine (too much) and serotonin (poorly regulated) in certain areas of the brain. Finally, the depressive disorders appear to be associated with altered brain serotonin and norepinephrine systems. Both of these neurochemicals may be lower in depressed people. Please note that abnormalities of these neurochemicals are "associated with" instead of "caused by," because we really don't know whether low levels of neurochemicals in the brain cause depression or whether depression causes low levels of neurochemicals in the brain.

What we do know is certain medications that alter the levels of norepinephrine or serotonin can alleviate the symptoms of depression. Some medicines that affect both of these neurochemical systems appear to perform even better or faster. Other medications that treat depression primarily affect the other neurochemical systems. The most powerful treatment for depression, electroconvulsive therapy (ECT), is certainly not specific to any particular neurotransmitter system. Rather, ECT, by causing a seizure, produces a generalized brain activity that probably releases massive amounts of all of the neurochemicals.

Women are twice as likely to become depressed as men. However, scientists do not know the reason for this difference. Psychological factors also contribute to a person's vulnerability to depression. Thus, persistent deprivation in infancy, physical or sexual abuse, clusters of certain personality traits, and inadequate ways of coping (maladaptive coping mechanisms) all can increase the frequency and severity of depressive disorders, with or without inherited vulnerability.

The effect of maternal-fetal stress on depression is currently an exciting area of research. It seems that maternal stress during pregnancy can increase the chance that the child will be prone to depression as an adult, particularly if there is a genetic vulnerability. It is thought that the mother's circulating stress hormones can influence the development of the fetus' brain during pregnancy. This altered fetal brain development occurs in ways that predispose the child to the risk of depression as an adult. Further research is still necessary to clarify how this happens. Again, this situation shows the complex interaction between genetic vulnerability and environmental stress, in this case, the stress of the mother on the fetus.

Depression is a neuro-chemical problem, either genetic or brought about by stressful event. It does not have much if anything to do with expressing your emotions. Notice this buried in the quote above:

Women are twice as likely to become depressed as men.

If women are allowed to cry in public and not men, then why are women twice as likely to suffer from depression? I thought women were more inclined to open their feelings in public? If anything they should suffer depression less than men. I'm sorry, that express yourself for mental health theory is a fallacy.

I've known 4 people who have suffered with 'true' depression. In all 4 cases they were ordinary people who were faced with, what they felt were, impossible life choices: a man whose wife wanted children and he did not faced with a choice of having children he doesn't want or losing his wife; a man who considers himself (and is) a good father feeling tethered to his disabled daughter facing a life in which he is never free from her or the guilt of, on some level, wanting to be free from her; a man who has to choose between his children and his wife, a woman who has to choose between the life she wants and the life she has, caring for sick parents. In all cases they have been people who have 'coped' but at some point reached that point where life had ground them down completely. My impression is that their brain faced this as a 'computer says no' scenario and simply shut down normal operations. In all cases it was only after acknowledging the true cause of their problem that they started to recover. Depressed people don't cry. Depressed people don't do anything. But often depression starts with self-deception, and in that respect not facing, but rather withholding 'truth' from yourself can lead to depression.

In that quote you say this: "In all cases it was only after acknowledging the true cause of their problem that they started to recover." First, that's the pop Freudian psycho thinking that's out in the general public. Second, I have no idea what your qualifications are to make a psychiatric determination like that. How do you know it wasn't just time that passed that allowed the brain to re-right its neurochemistry? Did you conduct an experiment holding controls and constants and derived data? Of course not. Science, especially biology, is very complex and requires controled experiments. Psychiatry has come a long way in the last fifty years and has been revolutionized from the junk crap that Feud put out a hundred years ago. Psychological function is biology, not philosophy. All that stuff about id, ego, and superego can be flushed down the toilet.

I have some questions:

These are some really good questions. Let me try answering them.

- why is it okay to laugh raucously in public but not cry?

How we display emotions are cultural norms, and really when I asked my question I was playing by poking at various culturaal norms that may be across this international lit net community. I have a friend at work who is from Vietnam, a very giddy, happy fellow, and he told me that Vietnamese people are very open to laugh raucously as you put it. He is very knowledgable about eastern cultures and contrasted Vietnamese with Koreans, who he describes as very unemotional publically. He said that Koreans think Vietnamese are fools in the way they laugh out loud. It has been my experience that the various Vietnamese and Koreans I have met do meet his description. He is quite right for the most part. Western cultures have similar cultural norms. It has been my experience that Greeks and Italians are way more emotionally expressive than northern Europeans. I assume you've heard of the "stiff British upper lip."

- why is public crying often greeted with derision or disgust, and not compassion?

I don't know. Of all the tings mentioned in this thread (which has been very infomative and a good learning experience for me) is that such a loss of control is akin to childishness. And that isn't too flattering. But I think that if the situation is warrented and someone breaks down from a terrible event, people will understand. I don't think people deride or feel disgust unless it were a frequent thing for that person.

- the man who slumps down in the street and cries may have lost himself, the person who passes him by with a sneer - what's their excuse?

Well, we should be understanding of someone who cries. I am not for derision. Each one handles life's events as best as one can. I took an extreme example in that video.

- what are you afraid of?

I'm not afraid. It's happened to me a couple of times as I said.

- Is 'image' more important than 'honesty'?

There are times when image is as important. I think of all the posts, Kilt said it best:

There are times and places where a man can cry, but in general in public isnt one of them (except for at sporting events). A man has to be solid & dependable, a shoulder for women to cry on but not a source of crying himself - except when alone

I know that may seem sexist, but there are roles that men need to fill.

[The Comedian]

Any man who cries needs sand kicked in his face. (Kidding!)

I think it's okay for men to cry insofar as they cry less than the women they associate with. I mean, a crying man has got to make an impact. I know if my wife or daughters see me cry, I would want them to think: "Holy ****! Dad's crying. This must be serious."

Then again, if you're the type of man who likes watch/read a good romance and turn on the lachrymal spigot, no problem here. I'll just crack open a Bud and go split wood or something. . . .

[Virgil]

Any man who cries need sand kicked in his face. (Kidding!)

I think it's okay for men to cry insofar as they cry less than the women they associate with. I mean, a crying man has got to make an impact. I know if my wife or daughters see me cry, I would want them to think: "Holy ****! Dad's crying. This must be serious."

Then again, if you're the type of man who likes watch/read a good romance and turn on the lachrymal spigot, no problem here. I'll just crack open a Bud and go split wood or something. . . .

You live up to your name. I think you make a good point about wht your wife and daughters would say.

[TheFifthElement]

In that quote you say this: "In all cases it was only after acknowledging the true cause of their problem that they started to recover." First, that's the pop Freudian psycho thinking that's out in the general public. Second, I have no idea what your qualifications are to make a psychiatric determination like that. How do you know it wasn't just time that passed that allowed the brain to re-right its neurochemistry? Did you conduct an experiment holding controls and constants and derived data? Of course not. Science, especially biology, is very complex and requires controled experiments. Psychiatry has come a long way in the last fifty years and has been revolutionized from the junk crap that Feud put out a hundred years ago. Psychological function is biology, not philosophy. All that stuff about id, ego, and superego can be flushed down the toilet.

you're funny Virgil. One extract from an internet article doesn't make you an expert on brain chemistry either. You're an engineer aren't you? We're all pop here, yours is pop science, mine is pop pyschology. None of us are experts. At least I know it: are you repressing your inner id?

I could say your aversion to psychology borders on unhealthy

Anyway, I didn't make that determination in any of the above cases. In 3 of the cases they came to that determination themselves on their road to recovery, and my post was merely to share the experience as they shared it with me. In one of the cases that determination was made by a psychologist.

I think bipolarism is a different disorder to depression, is it not? Bipolarism is a systemic illness, whereas depression can be a one-off event.

I don't know who Feud is. I've never read Freud and don't necessarily believe in him. Sartre denied Freud's sub-conscious and I'm inclined to side with Sartre on that front. When we acknowledge our personal responsibility for making choices, and accept that those choices are within our control we are less affected by things being 'done to us', or being controlled by our 'sub-conscious' which is equally out of our control, and therefore less likely to get 'defeated'. Pop psychology? Sure, but if crying is an expression of 'defeat' or 'powerlessness' this may explain why women cry more and, potentially, why they are more prone to suffer from depression. That being said, there is a view that women are not necessarily more prone to depression but more likely to seek help, and the statistics are skewed by that.

I don't disagree that depression is both a disease and a product of brain chemistry. That being said, I also believe that thought affects brain chemistry. You call it psychology but to me it's all biology. Do you think thought is separate from our biological functions? Even in the extract you posted it says:

Please note that abnormalities of these neurochemicals are "associated with" instead of "caused by," because we really don't know whether low levels of neurochemicals in the brain cause depression or whether depression causes low levels of neurochemicals in the brain.

and

Psychological factors also contribute to a person's vulnerability to depression. Thus, persistent deprivation in infancy, physical or sexual abuse, clusters of certain personality traits, and inadequate ways of coping (maladaptive coping mechanisms) all can increase the frequency and severity of depressive disorders, with or without inherited vulnerability.

And if 'thought' or 'psychology' if you prefer is separate to 'biology' then how do you explain the success of cognitive therapy in treating depression?

[Nightshade]

Humm Ive thought more about it and in fact the whoele women can cry in public is just as sexists as men cant cry in public, and my earlier comment needs qualifing in general I dont think people should cry in public bujt there are time and places where anyone crying in public , even howling in grief is acceptable not very comfortable for witnesses but acceptable, such as funerals especially children's funerals. And at things that are meant to make you cry. But people who burst into tears because something is 'just so beautiful" now they just annoy me. Almost as much as people who sob and wail while they are praying just because you are suposed to be moved. But in effect all they do is distract other people who are trying to concentrate on their praying. If you have to cry in sistations like that at least do so silently.

There are plenty of ways to express being sad without mkaing a fuss. Just like the fact it isnt accpetable to fall off your chair and roll around the floor laughing in public ( and since I do do this in private I can say that it does take a measure of self control to not fall about laughing in public. And the only time I have actually dfallen off a chair and laugh in public was wehen my boss decided she was bored and it muight be fun to sneak up on me and discover if I was ticklish )

But then again I think that I should really be one of the last to talk seeing as I dont cry except tears of rage ( hey its better than either hurting myself or someone else) or occasionally when something has shocked me and Ive not slept in over 24hrs. Only they tend to be more hysterical fits of manic laughter and tears running down my face.

[Virgil]

you're funny Virgil. One extract from an internet article doesn't make you an expert on brain chemistry either. You're an engineer aren't you? We're all pop here, yours is pop science, mine is pop pyschology. None of us are experts. At least I know it: are you repressing your inner id?

I could say your aversion to psychology borders on unhealthy

I'm not claiming to be an expert. That web site is a very respectable medical site, and there are a few others as well. If you wish I could provide more medical sites. I've told this story a couple of times on lit net, but perhaps youv've never seen it. My mother suffers from depression and has for a good deal of her life. She had told me stories about it even in her youth and how it would come and go. About 20-25 years ago (I don't remember the exact year) she started going into serious depression and some mild hallucinations (audio hallucinations) and stopped eating. At the time this wasn't something you went to a doctor for. Times have changed thank God. My brother had this Freudian theory of how she had to work these things out in her mind. What utter nonsense. Finally I did take her to our family doctor - she was down to bones - and doctor told me that over the years he had prescribed her midications for this (I had never known) and she usually came out of it. This time what he prescribed didn't work and he immediaately sent her to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist prescribed several drugs (I don't recall what they were since they've changed over the years) but within a week she was nearly normal and within a few weeks was certainly normal. She has been on medications for all these years and currently she takes Celexa (generic name is Citalopram) and except for a few instances where she didn't want the medications, she has been mentally healthy all these years. She has appointments with a psychiatrist every two months, which I take her to and I have gotten into several conversations over the years with the doctors on how this all works. Sure I am not an expert, but given my science background and given my 20 something year histroy with this i've built up a little knowledge.

Anyway, I didn't make that determination in any of the above cases. In 3 of the cases they came to that determination themselves on their road to recovery, and my post was merely to share the experience as they shared it with me. In one of the cases that determination was made by a psychologist.

I think bipolarism is a different disorder to depression, is it not? Bipolarism is a systemic illness, whereas depression can be a one-off event.

I don't know who Feud is. I've never read Freud and don't necessarily believe in him. Sartre denied Freud's sub-conscious and I'm inclined to side with Sartre on that front. When we acknowledge our personal responsibility for making choices, and accept that those choices are within our control we are less affected by things being 'done to us', or being controlled by our 'sub-conscious' which is equally out of our control, and therefore less likely to get 'defeated'. Pop psychology? Sure, but if crying is an expression of 'defeat' or 'powerlessness' this may explain why women cry more and, potentially, why they are more prone to suffer from depression. That being said, there is a view that women are not necessarily more prone to depression but more likely to seek help, and the statistics are skewed by that.

I don't disagree that depression is both a disease and a product of brain chemistry. That being said, I also believe that thought affects brain chemistry. You call it psychology but to me it's all biology. Do you think thought is separate from our biological functions? Even in the extract you posted it says:


and


And if 'thought' or 'psychology' if you prefer is separate to 'biology' then how do you explain the success of cognitive therapy in treating depression?

Well, that's good you don't buy into that Freudian stuff. Perhaps I associated your thoughts with his. In my opinion Freud did more damage to the science of mental illness than good, and frankly I believe he was a charlatan. As to cognitive therapy, I don't know. I'm no expert. I searched for information on it and it seems to help with anxiety problems. Like I said I'm no expert so I'll reserve judgement. All I can tell you is that what my mother suffered from was not going to change from talking it out.

[TheFifthElement]

Virge, I wasn't aware of your mother's situation. That must have been hard on you growing up. It is good that she now has things under control. From the sounds of things your Mum's case must be systemic, which is not the case for all people. I still think it's a shame that drugs are the only answer, in fact I don't think they are the only answer, but one must work with what seems to work, I guess. I think they are the easy answer. It is easier to give someone a pill to pop once or twice a day than to help them to think differently. I think if your Mum was just being diagnosed now then the likelihood is she would be given drugs and some sort of psychological therapy, such as CBT, working in compliment with each other. Well, she would in UK if she had a decent GP, though I can't speak for US. CBT is very effective in treating depression, not just anxiety, and can be more effective than anti-depressants, though obviously it isn't going to work for everyone. See here: http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealt...ments/cbt.aspx

My brother had this Freudian theory of how she had to work these things out in her mind. What utter nonsense.

Well, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss, though I can understand why you might think that in the circumstances. I don't think that thinking about it alone is the answer. I think that when people get into a depressive state they need something to kick them out of it, and the drugs do that. But to stay out of it you might need something in addition to the drugs. At a root level the brain is just a bio-chemical computer. The computer has a faulty hard-drive and for some reason whenever the computer encounters an outside action the electronic pathways automatically send signals to the faulty hard drive and you get an 'error'. To fix the computer you need to fix the faulty hard-drive but if it's only possible to temporarily fix the hard-drive then to get a complete fix you need to also re-programme the computer to send the signals to a different hard-drive which works better. That way you don't have to keep tinkering with the faulty hard-drive, you can forget it because you're not using it anymore. Drugs fix the hard-drive, but thought is our tool for re-programming. It makes sense to me to do both, particularly if by doing both you might eventually be able to ditch the drugs.

Anyway, I agree on one point: crying or not crying has no impact on depression. People who cry are neither more nor less likely to become depressed but expressing your emotions, or rather acknowledging and dealing with them can have an impact in preventing depression, when depression is caused by a particular stress and not a systemic underlying problem. Phew, that's a mouthful