devils and that

[chrismythoi]

in the bible the term satan means 'adversary'. this is most clearly shown in the book of Job.
in the new testament, devils/evil spirits take on a more nefarious role, notably with the 'messianic secret' in mark's gospel. also in the eschatology of Revelation.

my question though is to what extent has paradise lost shaped modern understanding of evil and its 'spiritual' qualities. for me, it always seems strange that so many people believe in a perfect, perfectly loving god, who also created evil in the form of a powerful god like being.

[Wilde woman]

The standard argument goes God is perfectly good because he didn't intentionally create evil. Instead, in his infinite compassion, he let Lucifer (and everyone else) have free will. So Lucifer chose evil by turning on the unquestionable Good which is God. The onus falls on Lucifer and not God.

[JBI]

It's so shaped by Milton, that it is almost impossible to separate Milton's Satan from the real Satan, or from Biblical Satan. Our very picture of Satan seems to come from Milton, are very picture of Hell seems to come from Milton, are notions of the fall, and of Satan come from, in one way or another, Milton.

The Satan of Revelation, or the Lucifer of Isaiah seem very different than our modern understanding.

The problem I think though, is Paradise Lost is a lot denser than people take it to be, and as such, they sort of mis,or half-interpret it, and leave out the context behind the poem, and its objective, to "justify the ways of God to man." The Fortunate Fall is used then, not as a response to contemporary theology, as it was in Milton's time, but as a justification for wrongs in this world. The "free will" that Milton speaks about is completely different than what people now interpret "free will" to mean. They think it is a break from determinism, whereas I think Milton saw it as more of a way to repent, even when caught up in sinful action, and a way for redemption, which Satan in the text cannot achieve, because he so refuses to accept God.

[skasian]

I believe that satan exists in order to serve God.
Satan exists to temptate us during our lives in earth and the ones that are able to fight it off and seek God may identified as God's Children. I always thought that life in earth was a test, whether we are worth the weight of entering God's Kingdom.

When Jesus came down to earth, He was temptated three times by satan. The idea is that Jesus resisted all, providing us an insight, a meaning for Christians to follow the same.

It seems for a long some people see God vs satan and Good vs Evil as an infinite battle between the two. The fact is that God, all light and righteous won from the beginning of time, beginning of everthing, and that satan, all evil and darkness serves the good. For example a light bulb conquers over the darkness, and unmatchable in every way.

[kiki1982]

Theologists (and Catholic doctrine) hold the idea that (and Milton based Paradise Lost on that theory and just made a story out of it):

Satan, Lucifer and the other devils were originally created by God. They were not evil, but they were angels, as Micheal and Gabriel, for example. Yet, Lucifer started to question the authority of God, his Creator, and rebelled with a few, amongst which Satan, against the authority of God. God was so angry that he banished them out of Heaven. Yet, they chose Hell as their own realm upon which Satan dressed up in the snake and tempted Eve who tempted Adam (the pets of God).

Out of this, for me, follows that God didn't intend or create evil, but that it was forced upon Him. It would be logical for Satan to want people/souls to populate his kingdom with and so he tries to tempt people into damnation.

I do not believe that God can send devils to test the Faith in Him, although that is widely believed. It doesn't seem logic to me, as God would be insecure about His position? It is far more logic to me if Satan continuously competes with his Creator. Eternally, really, like total damnation on Satan's part. That would also be in concord with the cardinal sins that lead to eternal damnation: pride, envy, greed and wrath, all of which are present in Satan, being envious of God's position, being proud, being greedy and wanting to have the same position of authority and being angry or impatient as to his own position. Rebelling against his Creator was, for him, a manifestation of his extreme contempt for God and that leads to eternal damnation, hence his realm Hell that, since Dante has stood for that same state of contempt in which Satan or Lucifer found himself in.

Of course, God wins this battle continuously, because He is the final Being, the biggest, the Infinite, the Authority. Satan was, is and will always be a being created by God, and so always His subordinate, whatever happens.

That makes more sense than God testing us...
Jesus was not tested by His Father, but was tested by Satan out of contempt for His Father... By being able to condemn Jesus to eternal damnation (if Satan had succeeded), evil would have conquered God as His Son and Himself were at stake, and that would have sent the whole world into damnation, because God had sent His Son to sacrifice Him for the salvation of the world. The good always wins, because the Good is bigger than the bad...

[lupe]

Devils and demons were created at the same time - and in the same process - than gods. It couldn't be other way: the idea of a powerful "good" god would not have survived without that of a "bad" devil. The next step is for those humans who represent the various gods to tell us what is "good" and "bad" and the whole religious establishment is ready.

However, throughout the centuries, "Satan" or "demons" have also taken a different meaning: the one of "knowledge". This came naturally, with the progress of human sciences and civilization: according to those who see their power and influence diminish, "knowledge" is given by the devil to push people away from god. The more people ask questions, search, argument and emancipate themselves, the more likely is that they will stop rely on irrationals beliefs, superstitions and "faith".

[PoeticPassions]

So if you read Paradise Lost closely, it is interesting to note how God is represented, versus Satan. Satan employs beautiful rhetoric, as he is eloquent and grandiose in speech, whereas God's speech is quite pedestrian and dull. God exhibits vengeance (is this not a sin?) and is portrayed much like a Tyrant... where Satan is portrayed as a type of revolutionary. This epic poem cannot be removed from its time and place however-- it was written for a religious audience, and Milton himself was a believer... but he created a poetic Satan (if you look at Blake's works you can draw parallels, and Blake accuses Milton of being of the Devil's party, merely because he is a poet himself.) The Devil is active, he is energy, he is imagination.

Furthermore, the poem cannot be separated from the political environment of its time either. Milton critiques the English Parliament-- the monarchy-- in his works, and when you read through the parts where the devils get together and have a conference and voting, it is all to much akin to a parliamentary session. And in real life, the rebellion fails and the monarchy is reinstated (much like Satan's rebellion is bound to fail...)

Well there are many interpretations of this poem... I tend to choose the more Romantic view of Satan as the protagonist, and thus my view of these entities and spirituality is warped (then again I am an agnostic and do not believe in an actual physical Hell or Heaven anyway).

But I would say that at least in Milton's Paradise Lost, God is not a perfect being, and is often driven by his temperament, and even his vanity/narcissism (to cast out the one that dares to disobey him?). Whether Milton intended for him to come across this way or not, I am not sure (though I believe he did not), but I am convinced that Satan is the hero in this epic...

[kiki1982]

Devils and demons were created at the same time - and in the same process - than gods. It couldn't be other way: the idea of a powerful "good" god would not have survived without that of a "bad" devil. The next step is for those humans who represent the various gods to tell us what is "good" and "bad" and the whole religious establishment is ready.

However, throughout the centuries, "Satan" or "demons" have also taken a different meaning: the one of "knowledge". This came naturally, with the progress of human sciences and civilization: according to those who see their power and influence diminish, "knowledge" is given by the devil to push people away from god. The more people ask questions, search, argument and emancipate themselves, the more likely is that they will stop rely on irrationals beliefs, superstitions and "faith".

You have a good point there! Indeed, powerful 'good' wouldn't be able to be as good if there were no 'bad'.

Thinking of Faust, knowledge was indeed an important tool.

@ PoeticPassions:

You have a point as well. Satan is indeed the the protagonist. I would consider him so as well.
As to God in it. I suppose that for a public who starts to read Paradise Lost with a preconceived notion of God being right and Satan being wrong, and knowing the commandment 'you shall honour mother and father', that God doesn't need to say much and only does what is right in their eyes. He probably comes across now as vain and wanting to retain his position, because for us it is not natural that he would be entitled to the positionn whereas for readers then it would be only natural. Much like the political situation then and now: challenging the monarchy? Who does that? 'It is their divine right to be on the throne!' Whereas now, we just kick the king out when we feel like it since 1789...

[Pendragon]

Devils are fallen angels, such as Lucifer was in the beginning before time as we know it.

[DeadAsDreams]

I hardly believe that there is really such a thing as satan, at least in the popular incarnations of him. Satan to me seems like a way out for people; it wasn't me, it was satan. Rubbish. I've even heard people blame their math test scores on satan, proclaiming "I'm going to kill satan!" as if satan had anything to do with it. Satan, if such a being exists would be another manifestaion of God's eternal glory. He exists, but only because humans chose for him to exist. By eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we, as beings of free will chose to be able to sin. The snake I believe is simply the budding sin in all of us, created by necessity, represented in our ability to have free will.

There is enough evil in people that we can do without satan quite handily. Satan to me, is simply the incaranation of the choice within all of us to choose sin.

[Pendragon]

Disbelief in something is no proof that it does or doesn't exist. I could say I don't believe in gravity, but that won't make me levitate...

[weltanschauung]

ironically, the belief in something doesnt make it true either. i can say i believe with all my heart that frankenstein god talks to me and tells me he loves me and that im his beloved child, along with my brothers, and that a cosmic jewish zombie, who is his own father, can make us live forever if we symbolically eat his flesh and telepathicaly tell him you accept him as your master, so that he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. i know, it makes perfect sense, but i could never be sure.

[Redzeppelin]

I hardly believe that there is really such a thing as satan, at least in the popular incarnations of him. Satan to me seems like a way out for people; it wasn't me, it was satan. Rubbish. I've even heard people blame their math test scores on satan, proclaiming "I'm going to kill satan!" as if satan had anything to do with it. Satan, if such a being exists would be another manifestaion of God's eternal glory. He exists, but only because humans chose for him to exist. By eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we, as beings of free will chose to be able to sin. The snake I believe is simply the budding sin in all of us, created by necessity, represented in our ability to have free will.

1. Satan is not responsible for our choices, but he is guilty of making suggestions that are very appealing to the human nature that he is so well-acquainted with.

2. The math test thing is silly - but don't put it past the Bad Guy to use tiny things to put our lives into disarray. As CS Lewis writes (under the guise of Master Tempter Screwtape): "Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick."

3. Humans do not create reality; they can "create" their own idea of what reality is, but they can't create reality itself.

There is enough evil in people that we can do without satan quite handily. Satan to me, is simply the incaranation of the choice within all of us to choose sin.

We will do evil on our own because we are predisposed to do so; but Satan is in the mix because (as Milton suggests) he has a vested interest in destroying the creations God so loves.

ironically, the belief in something doesnt make it true either. i can say i believe with all my heart that frankenstein god talks to me and tells me he loves me and that im his beloved child, along with my brothers, and that a cosmic jewish zombie, who is his own father, can make us live forever if we symbolically eat his flesh and telepathicaly tell him you accept him as your master, so that he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. i know, it makes perfect sense, but i could never be sure.

1. You're correct - which puts both believer and non-believer on equal ground.

2. I'm not sure the "zombie" comment is necessary. You reduction of some of the principle tenants of Christianity is certainly witty, but it isn't really a fair representation of Christianity. I'm curious if you would present such a condescending run-down of Islam, Juddiasm, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc? If so, I'd be interested in seeing such wit turned on other beliefs which can certainly be no more credible than Christianity.

Unfortunately, much of what you wrote about Christianity is wrong.

[Lokasenna]

It may be a little pretentious of me to post this, but I wrote a little piece a while back for a pseudo-theological thingum I got involved in, arguing the case for "the debt we owe to Hell" - here goes nothing:

A few thoughts on the debt we owe to Hell.

Satan was the first democrat. In all creation, he was the first to rebel against hegemony and tyranny - indeed, the great hegemony! Of God Himself! The ineffable plan was exposed, a declaration in a world were disagreement and discord had never previously appeared, and Satan took it upon himself to disagree. How revolutionary - how human! Power to the masses, not just the One! The first ever example of something so important: not just discord, but creativity - the single greatest event, if only a change in the mind, in all the history of existence.

But how can this be so? Angels have no free will - Satan specifically rebelled because we mere humans were to possess it! I suggest that free will played no part in it, but was rather a mistake of God. This universe is governed by an absolute law that every action has an equal and opposite reaction; God has bound Himself - limited Himself - to a universe that requires an opposite for Him. As the sole embodiment of all-powerful benevolence, of necessity, there must be an equal and opposite power for malevolence.

Satan's choice, then, was illusionary. His rebellion was the product of a universal imperative that is born of God, and yet which contains God. Free will is not about acknowledging a choice, but allowing chaos to dictate that choice - to ignore the choice! The stimuli and consequences of the universe will always dictate the most fitting end to a choice - but we can ignore them! Show me the child, our essential self, that would not sacrifice half the world, all the world to save its mother! Our freedom is in the denial of rationality.

It is this denial that makes us such interesting creatures. Our creativity comes from our free will, and that comes from chaos. Heaven is perfection, and perfection, by its very definition is unchanging and eternal - creativity cannot add to perfection, for creativity is about changing the world, even in a minute way. Hell is torment, and chaos, and, most importantly, energy. The fuel of creativity is discord - without Hell, mankind could never have advanced. Hell can truly be said to hold "the mirror up to nature." The creative genius sees himself in Hell, the fantasy of it all! - and he creates!

Satan, because of his faults, was the first artist - genius! As creatures, as products of this world, we far more resemble him than our creator!


Well - what do you think? It is, if nothing else, a different opinion. A lot of this actually draws from William Blake's conception of Heaven and Hell - I strongly urge you to go away and read his "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell" - it is absolutely fantastic as a piece of poetry, and the philosophy and theology behind it is extremely intriguing as well.

[weltanschauung]

its wrong because you said so?

ah.

anyhow,
judaism, christianism, islamism, spiritism, ismssmsmsms, theyre all religions. religions are dualistic social hysteria. religions observe behaviors that occur in society, categorize them arbitrarily into expected/acceptable and forbidden/unacceptable and preach condemnation of some sort to the non-followers of the tyrany. and finally, validate this argument with the figure of a gigantic tyranic angry transparent person, who they named god after compiling a vast source of assembled fables gathered throughout centuries of reinforced mind control.

budhism, hinduism are philosophical systems. they observe the behaviors that occur in society, analise the consequences and rely on everyone's ability to judge on their own what is best for all.

this is what you said:
"1. Satan is not responsible for our choices, but he is guilty of making suggestions that are very appealing to the human nature that he is so well-acquainted with."


ok, so let me analise this.
god created us so that we could love him, according to skasian. alright, so here we are, and our sole purpose to be here is to love our maker, ok.
somehow, this evil groteske smelly horned malicious goat adversary popped out of the holy bosom and started ruining god's glorious kingdom of peace and love, for some reason, although no one can provide a sufficiently logical fundamentation to validate those events, which, according to them are historical and not metaphorical. everyone repeats that story although no one can point its source, because it's not in the bible.
so anyways... god, in his perfection, gave us the gift of freewill. however, if we do something "wrong", it is not our fault, really. it's the devil's fault because he's evil and he's constantly "tempting" us. he takes pleasure in that, because he knows us, and apparently we're evil too, although we were created as the image of god, who is infinitely good. ok.
nonetheless, i should never fear faltering upon troublesome roads, because god helps me when i need. he's perfect and good and loving. however, apparently, he cannot prevent me from the terrif(r)ying presence of his most superior creature, because he's evil and turned against his maker, god, the good guy.

ok so basically, this is the fundamental dogma of religions:
mankind, life is hard, but do not fear. there is someone who knows more than you do and is always watching and protecting you. so go on, and face these struggles, because you are not alone. however, watch out for this monster that lies in the shadows. he's sly and will try to destroy you. dont do anything wrong, because that one who knows everything will punish you someday.

whereas, it should be this:
mankind, you are on your own. life is hard and doesnt really make any sense, however, you should ponder upon your utility to the others, for you are all together and no one knows exactly what is going on. reflect about how you could make this place better, and always seek to do those things that would have a positive overall effect in case everyone else around you should do the same. if you succeed, congratulations, and keep up the good work. if you fail, try again until you get it right. most of all, mankind, think for yourself. and if someone grabs a sword and forces his will upon yours, fight back.


am i the crazy one? or are you.