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Thread: The "I Hate Shakespeare" Thread.

  1. #91
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Another ironic point I just thought of, thinking back on some old discussions - the cries of deus ex machina as a criticism of authors who use it, yet here we are championing a book which uses that as its main theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    For an atheist I am struck by the manner in which any dialog with you is like arguing with a true believer. You will find any excuse... however improbable... to negate any fact thrown in your direction.
    No, I just call it as I see it. Lots of the time, that's not popular.

    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    We are all impressed with your mastery of Google search.
    hey, you list a load of American critics I've never heard of, what do you expect me to do, go to the library and waste a month reading books I have no interest in whatsoever.

    Honestly, the attempted criticism of using Google is pretty weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    That's largely because you could probably count all the critics you've actually read... and not merely Googled... on one hand... or such must certainly be the consensus when considering your inane comments as to the lack of any serious critic championing the Bible.
    More very weak argument, and a bad attempt at an elitist put-down. How many critics I've read is irrelevant, but it will be a lot higher number than you expect.

    But as you say, further discourse is pointless from here.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Honestly, you seem to come off as watered down Orwell and Terry Eagleton, with all the polemics, but without any sense of scholarship. You don't seem to be understanding, or seem to be ignoring, how literary theory or criticism works, functions, or is carried out, in English countries, but also in the world. In truth, you don't seem to understand much of the Bible, or how it relates to literature to begin with.
    You know, it's funny, but I could aim the same criticism at you. Seriously, I am quite incredulous to find someone championing the bible as a great work of literature and I'd love to ask how it's possible you've ignored so much scholarly criticism of the bible, its inconsistencies, its plagiarism, its immoral teachings and many other bits which make it a shocking piece of writing overall.

    But I don't do that kind of thing as it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    We're exchanging opinions, and attempting to gain some kind of moral ascendency by claiming your scholarship is bigger than mine is pretty childish, in my view and I won't bother with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    The fact that you resort to telling people to bring on the "googlr" is quite stupid. Anyone who has any sense of scholarship knows google is for the lazy, and not for the academic. Maybe if you read a little more, instead of trying to be so controversial for the sake of mental masturbation you would appreciate, or at least see the reasons why people appreciate said texts. As it is, you only seem to quote (often misquoting I may add) people, not facts. Giving a list of novels and yelling "see, the Bible isn't on it".
    I'd like you to read this again sometime and ask quite why you're being so defensive that you've resorted to insults instead of arguments.

    I noted that my links were imperfect, and offerred to find more if you wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    As I have said before, you have no goal other than to hear your own voice. Your discussion goes nowhere, as no one is swayed. Your points go nowhere, as they no one seems to really be buying them but yourself, and the bible's value won't go down because of it, as, like you have said, it is so much our culture. The only real response is as follows.

    Really, the only thing your doing is showing some opinions are overrated, not Shakespeare, and not the Bible, and that some people are better judges of literature in general.

    You forget to address your own assumptions and beliefs, mainly that criticism is about rating. IT is not about rating, it is about exploring texts - any critic will tell you that, Bloom included. In fact, many critics deliberately shy away from valuing and rating texts, because that is not their job, and is not really the job of such scholarship. You won't find much on Google anyway, as it clearly isn't a credible source for anything scholarly. But you will find countless volumes of Bible criticism, as literature, as fact, as fallacy, as anything. The reason for this, is because it is a very dense book, with many possibilities and interpretations. Everyone who knows literature knows the Bible. To say the Bible is overrated is to ignore the fact that if it is overrated, literature itself is overrated, in which case, what business does one such as yourself have talking on a literature board if they are only here to call anyone who likes it Elitist. All decisions of value are elitist, because they aren't made by the majority of the population, who, ironically, would probably vote the Bible the top book, and for most people, the only book (well, in the Arab world, I think the Koran would win). No atheist critic would ignore the Bible, and most would encourage its reading as aesthetic literature. It certainly beats the alternatives.
    I've quoted the above to let you know that I've read it, but I see no comment needed beyond what I've already said.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  2. #92
    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    For an atheist I am struck by the manner in which any dialog with you is like arguing with a true believer. You will find any excuse... however improbable... to negate any fact thrown in your direction.
    Nah. Fanatics do that. Unfortunately, in their fanaticism, atheists also sometimes go that way.

    And he is a fanatic anti-Shakespeare-fan (if that concept is understandable), in that he will go to any lengths to get his point across, even improbable lengths...

    But, Atheist, you give us the solution to the whole discussion!

    In the case of the bible, if you want a vastly superior text, try Aesop's Fables. The morality is clearer, it has wide appeal and it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the bible will ever do. It doesn't need to resort to subterfuge or blackmail and it doesn't pass the collection plate around on Sundays.
    Still, proving it is another thing.
    You do not know how to prove that the Fables of Aesop are better than the Bible, and you argue that Shakespeare is outdated and over-rated. Is that provable? It seems difficult.

    Indeed, it is a matter of conception. One might like Aesop's Fables better than the Bible, or Shakespeare, but it is a subjective matter. Thus it is not provable, because our opinions on it are the result of our own wishes and therefore not the same as the opinions of others. The discussion about Shakespeare being better or worse than something else is irrelevant as that depends on your own opinion.

    It stands no doubt that the Bible had a lot of influence in literature, yet it stands no doubt either that Shakespeare had a lot of influence in literature (drama) like the Greeks.
    If you find it over-rated or outdated you fail to look past the façcade of it, the humanity of Shakespeare's characters. That is his true merit. He explored human nature, not merely in his time, but in the timeless universe. As in the Merchant, he does not explore the Jewishness of the Jew, but rather the humanity of the Jew. That is Shakespeare's merit and that is what you do not see: the timelessness of his characters and the timelessness of human relationships.
    The stories of his plays are not timeless, as they feature definite time-set events (the feud between the Montegues and the Capulets, the dowries of Goneril and Regan, the Jew, knaves...), but that is not the base for Shakespeare's plays: they are about timeless human conflicts.

    How otherwise could West Side Story draw on Romeo and Juliet?
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

  3. #93
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiki1982 View Post
    And he is a fanatic anti-Shakespeare-fan (if that concept is understandable), in that he will go to any lengths to get his point across, even improbable lengths...
    That's a pretty poor conception of what I've said already in this thread, when I've already made these posts:

    I don't recommend shooting Shakespeare - he was unquestionably one of the greatest English writers, but I don't see him at the top, or worse still, alone at the top, as many see him.

    I note that I've explained the title as a bit tongue-in-cheek, and I have provided critisisms.


    And, this fits for the second time in the same thread:

    I'm really beginning to think you aren't reading my posts at all. You're coming out with things I haven't said, and now you've shown that you completely missed my several comments that I wouldn't cancel Shakespeare and that I do consider him one of the giants.

    Is that fanatical?

    I think not, but as they say on the internet, YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiki1982 View Post
    You do not know how to prove that the Fables of Aesop are better than the Bible, and you argue that Shakespeare is outdated and over-rated. Is that provable? It seems difficult.
    Again, if you'd read what I've said, you would have already that I have stated that nobody can prove anything in aesthetics, and I certainly wouldn't try to.

    As far as I can tell, thisis a discussion forum, where people discuss things. Some of the things I like to discuss aren't mainstream, but there no element of proof involved, unless you want to talk mathematics.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiki1982 View Post
    The discussion about Shakespeare being better or worse than something else is irrelevant as that depends on your own opinion.
    If this were the case, all discussion boards and about 75% of all human discourse could cease right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiki1982 View Post
    It stands no doubt that the Bible had a lot of influence in literature, yet it stands no doubt either that Shakespeare had a lot of influence in literature (drama) like the Greeks. ...
    Like the rest of your post, I don't see anything we haven't already covered, so I can't see any point in revisiting the things you've raised.

    For the record, I've already agreed with the bit I've quoted.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  4. #94
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Wow, these posts in this thread are long. I can't read it all, but I must say I am definitely entertained.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  5. #95
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Oh I just have to post these funny youtube clips by the reduced Shakespeare Company. I think it fits so well to this discussion.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-0FsTVY3Cs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-0FsTVY3Cs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQk4Y...eature=related



    Credit belongs to Equality who posted them in her blog today:
    http://www.online-literature.com/for...7#comment31438
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  6. #96
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Oh I just have to post these funny youtube clips by the reduced Shakespeare Company.


    Classic! They are funny guys.

    Best Macbeth I've yet seen - they managed to get the entire play into about 45 seconds. (And it was funnier than the original.)

    Great to see them cover that idiot superstition as well.

    I'm going to watch all of their clips now, looks like there are loads of them, and good quality.

    Thanks!
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  7. #97
    Registered User Equality72521's Avatar
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    Their Hamlet is the most fantastic thing ever! They actually hold the record for the fastest ever performance of Hamlet! lol
    Little one, Fate might miscarry.
    Little one, why do you tarry?
    Little one, When May I marry you?
    My little one.

  8. #98
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I got a real kick out of the Othello rap clip.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  9. #99
    A FLEECED MONSTROSITY aBIGsheep's Avatar
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  10. #100
    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    Has anybody ever wondered if maybe Homer, the Bible, and Shakespeare are such icons of good writing because they have served as our models for so long? Now, do we think of a good piece of writing as something which has Shakespearean qualities to it? I've heard that the Koran occupies a similar place in the literature of Islam. It is considered unspurpassable in the Arabic language and I am curious to know if that is because they are in fact so good, or if perhaps they are of such paramount importance, are so central to a society's thinking that they warp the thinking about themselves. Do great works of literature change the values we have for appreciating good literature? Do they add to and restructure the vocabulary we use when we talk about what is good and why it should be good?
    "So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
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  11. #101
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortalterror View Post
    Has anybody ever wondered if maybe Homer, the Bible, and Shakespeare are such icons of good writing because they have served as our models for so long? Now, do we think of a good piece of writing as something which has Shakespearean qualities to it?
    I think that's not too far off the mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by mortalterror View Post
    I've heard that the Koran occupies a similar place in the literature of Islam. It is considered unspurpassable in the Arabic language and I am curious to know if that is because they are in fact so good, or if perhaps they are of such paramount importance, are so central to a society's thinking that they warp the thinking about themselves.
    That unsurpassable comment has certainly been used previously:

    You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?
    Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakariyā ar Rāzī ~865 - 925AD.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  12. #102
    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    I am sorry if I do not have time to read 100 replies on the same subject...

    I will not go into the nature of discussion, because that is a discussion for a forum on discussion ... But anyway, there is more in these forums of meaningful discussion than about better or worse.

    Why would you call your thread 'I hate Shakespeare', if you find him 'good, but not one of the giants'? Yet you call him over-rated and oldfashioned. Yet, he is good...

    But have you thought about the main point I made? That is what you didn't reply to, yet that is what Shakespeare is and that is what this discussion should be about.

    But also in my post, you just saw the façade...
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

  13. #103
    Registered User Equality72521's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aBIGsheep View Post
    Hahahahaha!
    loved it!!!
    Little one, Fate might miscarry.
    Little one, why do you tarry?
    Little one, When May I marry you?
    My little one.

  14. #104

    Anti what. . .

    Who cares if he was anti-semetic (which I don't think he was); if we're supposed to be tolerant, enlightened people, we have to tolerate the intolerance of other people. I'm anti Eskimo. I loathe New Zelanders. Big deal. Not liking a specific group doesn't erase everything else that someone has accomplished. . .

  15. #105
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Grand Inqui View Post
    Who cares if he was anti-semetic (which I don't think he was); if we're supposed to be tolerant, enlightened people, we have to tolerate the intolerance of other people.
    That's absurd.

    There are laws against hate speech and race hatred in most countries. In Europe, Holocaust deniers are jailed.

    One thing we should never tolerate is intolerance.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grand Inqui View Post
    I loathe New Zelanders.
    Be afraid - be very, very afraid.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Grand Inqui View Post
    Big deal. Not liking a specific group doesn't erase everything else that someone has accomplished. . .
    What is this supposed to mean? Not liking a group, or being racist, says nothing at all about the accomplishments of any other group. Racism and intolerance speaks to the purveyor, not the subject.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

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