More than possible, since John wrote the book of Revelation.
More than possible, since John wrote the book of Revelation.
Some of us laugh
Some of us cry
Some of us smoke
Some of us lie
But it's all just the way
that we cope with our lives...
The key word is "if": "but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"Originally Posted by mike thomas
"If" is a conditional term. Christ said "if it's my will that this happen, what is that to you?" Nothing in that statment suggests that John was to live forever, but that if Christ intended that this happen, it was no one's business but his.
An interesting side-bar: this scene in the Bible, however, has contributed in a partial way to the Medieval legend of the Wandering Jew.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
So who is alive then?
Ok Then. So what Did Jesus mean when he said (in three places in the Bible and surprisingly not in John's gospel - Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27) that, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
And why doesn't John have that account, but instead has the controversial verses about him being still alive when it was clearly a misinterpretation of Jesus' words by the disciples? (John 21:20-23)
In Him through which all things consist,
C.J.
I don't know if I entered the right place, but why do I get the feeling that you are looking for this:
And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic. (quran 61-6)
According to Muslim theology, that is prophet Muhammad, (Muhammad means the Praised one). And , according to Muslim theology too, Prophet Muhammad's soul is brought back to him everytime, muslims grant him prayers, greetings and blessings to reply back to them, i.e, his soul is alive although in body he is no more, there. Therefore, just like the Christians we are waiting for the second coming Of Jesus Christ.
Does this make any sense to anyone?
Where is the voice of Humanity?
Not really. If you are waiting for Jesus to return and this must happen, why are you equally waiting for the return of Muhammad? If both are Prophets, as you say, and Jesus is not God in the Flesh, then why both? What can one do that the other couldn't? Just asking.
Some of us laugh
Some of us cry
Some of us smoke
Some of us lie
But it's all just the way
that we cope with our lives...
Sorry, I've not been here for a while. The Mount of Transfiqureation they saw Him as He was and is to come. It depends on what you believe.
Some of us laugh
Some of us cry
Some of us smoke
Some of us lie
But it's all just the way
that we cope with our lives...
no, this is not what I meant. Jesus is returning sure I know. Muhammad is not I know as well, he died at the age of 63 in Medina in Saudi Arabia
What I was trying to say, that Jesus was referring to Muhammad, in the final verse in John and as long as Muhammad's soul returns unto him everytime, a muslim sends peace and blessings to him, then he is one way or another alive until the arrival of Jesus.
By the way I believe in Jesus Christ, just as I do believe in Muhammad. In fact one of the conditions of believing in Muhammad is to believe in all his predecessors.
Where is the voice of Humanity?
I was going to point out the same thing...Jesus makes more than one reference to the fact that someone among him shall remain on earth until the second coming....But I also think this verse from the end of the Gospel of John may mean this....Peter was asking Jesus why he wanted him to walk with him, but left John waiting. Jesus was simply saying "So what if i leave him waiting until I return? I'm asking you to come with me." I think maybe the verse has been looked at a little too deeply. I think it was just about getting Peter to stop worrying about John, and to follow what Jesus was asking him to do.
As someone once said
wooduratharebeeapigbooboobooboo
nuff said
i'm outa here
The kingdom of God on the earth is the Church. The Church prepares you for the greater kingdom, the kingdom of heaven. However, the kingdom of heaven is sometimes used in scripture to mean the Church. As in (Matt. 3:2, 4:17, and 25:1-13), meaning that the Church on earth is the path to heaven, and is the kingdom of heaven on earth.
The kingdom referred to in (Mark 9:1, Matt.16:27) is the second coming, Christ will come in “the glory of his Father” to “reward every man,” that’s when “the kingdom of God come with power.”
As recorded in Matthew: “for the Son of man shall come in the Glory of his Father…he shall reward every man according to his works...I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste death, till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.”(Matt 16:27, 28)
So what is the kingdom that some will see having not died? the Son of man coming in his kingdom to reward every man according to his works.
Who is it that shall not taste death, till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom?
“Jesus saith unto him, if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, he shall not die: but if I will that he tarry till I come
…this is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things and we know that his testimony is true”(John 22-24)
that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, he shall not die that he tarry till I come
Which disciple? this is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things and we know that his testimony is true
this is the disciple which testifieth of these things ““And the Word was made flesh…..and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father”
and wrote these things “But these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ”
The Apostle John did not die. Jesus said not unto him, he shall not die:
As we read in John chapter 21:” Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not”
The analogy in this verse points to crucifixion and history is without contradiction as to this being the death by which Peter sealed his testimony of the Christ, as John informs us as well (V19). Jesus then said “Follow me…
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following….Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me…Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die...”
When Christ said “Follow me,” it had a double meaning, as Peter would follow his Lord to the cross, and by which he should find his place among the martyrs, which he understood as his writings indicate,( See 2 Peter 1:14)
Just as Christ told Peter about his death, He also told us about John’s fate. John is still in the embodied state, and shall remain in the flesh until the Lords Second Advent.
As we read in Revelation: “Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not…go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel..Take it and eat it up...it shall be In thy mouth sweet as honey…and I took the little book…and ate it up…And he said unto me, thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.” (Rev. Chapter 10)
John was told to “Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not” he also was told to take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which he did Take it and eat it up .
John is the one disciple (that) should not die (because) Jesus said not unto him, he shall not die that he tarry till I come so he could prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.”
That “other disciple” the “disciple whom Jesus loved,’ ‘a son of thunder” the Apostle John, and we know that his testimony is true.
“
John, again in Asia, was banished by Domitian the king of the isle of Patmos, in which also he wrote his Gospel and saw the apocalyptic vision: and in Trajan’s time he fell asleep at Ephesus, where his remains were sought for, but could not be found.”(Hippolytus, On the Twelve Apostles, in ANF 5:254-255)
Jesus said not unto him, he shall not die:
Last edited by miwok; 04-29-2009 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Spacing
The Gospel of John and the beloved disciple
Dear friends
This will be my first post on this forum. Kindly permit me to give a different take on the beloved disciple, that might be more in line with a literary approach to the Gospel of John.
It is generally accepted by theologians today that the four canonical gospels weren't attributed to a specific apostle/ disciple when it was first circulated in the early Christian Church. Tradition has attributed certain disciples' names to the various gospels. In our critical world of today, these traditions has been questioned, although no certainty can be given concerning it.
A question that I've asked myself, is 'Why is the beloved disciple never mentioned by name in the Gospel of John?' One possibility seems to be that he is portrayed as the perfect disciple.
The beloved disciple is first met in John 13:21-30, during the last supper. Picture yourself a group of men eating by laying around a very low table. In the Ancient Mediterranean world, people reclined by laying down with the left elbow on the ground so that the right hand is free to bring your food to their mouths from the table or the ground. (People didn't sit around a table or in front of the television. Most meals followed loosely the roles of the Greek Symposium.)
Lying down/ reclining immediately meant more intimacy. The head of the person on your right side was near to your chest. The host's guest of honour would usually be the one to recline on his right side.
In verse 21 Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me." It is mentioned that the beloved disciple was the one reclining at the table close to Jesus (verse 23). It becomes clear that he is Jesus' guest of honour when Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus who would betray Him (verse 24). Jesus doesn't speak to all the disciples when he answers, only to the beloved disciple, "It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it." Judas is shown to be the traitor.
In this passage, three disciples are pictured to be in different relations to Jesus, the beloved disciple - the model of a follower of Jesus -; Simon Peter - the disciple who seems to be fallible (in 13:36-38 he is informed that he would deny Jesus) and Judas Iscariot - who rejects Jesus and his message.
In the rest of the Gospel (Jesus' passion and crucifixion) these three disciples' reaction to Jesus and what happened to him, plays out. (The reader can opt to identify with one of the three.)
After Jesus' betrayal and arrest i.e. Judas's rejection of Jesus (John 18:1-11), we read, "Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple. Since that disciple was known to the high priest, he entered with Jesus into the court of the high priest, but Peter stood outside the door. So the other disciple, who was known to the high priest, went out and spoke to the servant girl who kept watch at the door, and brought Peter in." (John 18:15-16, ESV)
The indication is that the disciple who was known by the high priest, is the beloved disciple. (All other disciples are known by name in the Gospel.) Again Peter is coming second. It is not only Jesus that kept the beloved disciple in high regard, but also the Jewish High Priest. It indicates also how flawed Peter's following of Jesus was.
Then to worsen things, Peter denies Jesus (John 18:15-18, 25-27). When Jesus is crucified, it is only the women that followed Jesus and one disciple, the disciple who loved Jesus, that were at the foot of the cross. (In the Synoptic Gospels, Matthew, Mark & Luke, only the women were left at the foot of the cross, all the disciples left Jesus.)
In John 19:25-27 we read,This story indicates that the beloved disciple followed Jesus perfectly and blamelessly even in the most difficult circumstances, whilst Peter denied Jesus and Judas rejected Him. Just after this episode, Jesus dies.... but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (ESV)
With the news that Jesus had arisen from the dead, it again became a contest between Peter and the beloved disciple of who should follow Jesus. In chapter 20:1-10 there is a race between Simon Peter and the beloved disciple:In the race, Peter comes second. While the beloved disciple believe immediately, Peter himself is just as confused as the other disciples because he didn't understand Scripture.So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb. Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first... Then the other disciple who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he believed; for as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that he must rise from the dead... (ESV)
So coming to chapter 21, it is clear that the beloved disciple is the perfect disciple. He is trusted by Jesus, he is a Jew of high standing and knows Scripture (the Hebrew Bible/the Old Testament). His loyalty to Jesus is seen at the foot of the cross and at the open grave. He grasps and know everything. He can't put a foot wrong. A true MISTER PERFECT! Maybe too perfect!
Peter on the other hand is full of faults. He is not Jesus' confidant. He is eager to follow Jesus, but is often in the wrong (read even John 18:19-11, Peter struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear). When it matters he can't live up to the challenge of following Jesus. He fails dismally. When he sees the open grave, he is just more confused.
Yet, Jesus chooses Peter in John 21:15-23 to lead the Christian Church. A surprising action! Interestingly enough in John 21:15-19 Jesus asks Peter if he loves Him. (Love in the Gospel of John, must not be understood and even translated with emotional romantic love, but with loyalty and commitment.) After Jesus ascertained Simon Peter's loyalty, the whole issue of the beloved disciple presented it. He was conveniently following them - Peter vs. Mister Perfect.
It is then that Jesus says: "If it is may will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!" (Chapter 21:23 makes it clear that it is not the way that Jesus' words must be interpreted. It is not about how long the perfect disciple may live.) Jesus' words mean somthing like: Don't worry about mister Perfect, it is important that you will follow me. Don't use other followers/ disciples as an excuse not to take the lead in following. With your faults, you're fit to follow.
Some theologians argues that John 21:24-25 was a later - although a very early - addition to the Gospel, written by someone close to the author of the Gospel of John. (The author could be John himself.) I would tend to agree with them. Remember, books were written by hand and not printed. There are a few examples of additions made to Biblical books by pious scribes.
If this is the case, the beloved disciple might be a literary construct, used by the gospel writer to encourage followers of Jesus Christ to follow Him, even if they feel that their personal flaws disqualify them to do so.
Kind regards
Elimelek
Hello, I am new to this site, caught my attention when i saw the topic, this has been on my mind for 21 years when i came upon these words.So this is what I have read and test my faith. Jesus told john, his friend, His witness to what happened in christ time, John who seemed to pass test that christ gave. Many church reps have said that all those people christ brought back to life died again, so they died twice in their life time? Sure people claim to die for small amount of time, but for example, Lazarus was dead 4 days, by then, yea, your dead. Now scriptures claim that Lazarus was also close to Jesus. From that point on , the priest of the temple also looked to kill Lazarus for fear of their glory fading. And in the last verse of the gospel of Matthew, its says the graves of the saints were opened and they got out and went into the city. Christ has the power for eternal life, thats why he was here. It is appointed for men to die once then the judgement, that is a scripture sayin in the bible in hebrews, and it is said the bible or word of God does not lie,most priest or preachers i have talked to say that all those resurrected by Christ died again, so somewhere there has to be a real beginning of the kingdom of God. I believe if all those people died again, well, what hope is there in this world then? Jesus said that in that time the 1st fruits and the harvest had started. John hasn't died, and Christ can give such a gift, after all , look who is the author of eternal life and who gave it to him, read the gospel of John, how close he really was to Christ, he had more faith then all the others. They never actually found and verified the body of John being dead, they think he was boiled and tarred, back then, easy to fake i.d and no c.s.i. stuff . He could of actually walked off the isle of Patmos-like when Peter did and sunk-but John had the faith to walk anywhere, even Italy. John could even be one of the witnesses, since he didn't die, and it is appointed for men to die once, Revelations says the beast will kill the 2 witnesses and their bodies will lay in the streets for the whole world to look and 3 days laters, they are brought back to life and taken to God. John was a close friend of Christ, he saw the future in visions as the book says while writing Revelations. But this book is really neat to read, a lot of puzzles and challenges you to prove it, but waiting no, he would be involved in shaping the return of the kingdom, making sure he is behind the scenes, possible the bodies of the saints who arose and Lazarus, surely these people would not make themselfs known to the public. And do not be suprised if you had already met one or crossed paths.
Last edited by johnnya; 04-19-2010 at 11:23 PM. Reason: my info is found in hebrews not romans
in ST.JOHN chapter 5, verse 21, it says
-For as the father raiseth up the dead, and quicketh whom he will.
verse 22, it says-
For the father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son. This is said before the 5ooo people were fed event. Notice it says committed (all)judgement, so he could have judged anyone, but he didn't until the time, with one word he could have damned one by judging him before the time, thats why the demons asked him about being judged. Christ had the will to sustain it.
Now verse 25 chapter 5, it says
Verily, verily, i say unto you. The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
That was present at that time, he was already raising the dead and judged them because the word of God allowed him because the hour was coming at his death.
Now the rest, verse 26-29,
For as the father hath life in himself:so hath given to the Son to have life in himself.(inmagine that!) And hath given him authority to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming. In the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.
The last post mentioned about the hour coming and the hour is, most people at that time believed in the end of time resurrection. When he gets there to Lazarus home, this is the conversation St.JOHN chapter 11 verse 21, .
Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died, but I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God. God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.(that was her faith,she did't believe he meant at that moment.) Jesus saith unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?( he asked her a direct question) and she saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. And then she left to continue her buisness. It's there in black and white words.
Later, chapter 12 verse 9 and 10. It says, Much people of the jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also whom he had raised from the dead. But the chief priest consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death. Why would Lazarus die again, when it is appointed for men to die once??
I have found the same theory that St John would still be alive today , Since every word spoken ba the Messiah are words of infinate truth. The verse that follows after the verse where Yahuashua (Messiah) tells Peter (paraphrased) "That it is none of your buisness Peter if this one (John or maybe Judas) remains here on Earth untill I return" ... restates what was just said without rebuking the content of what was said but leaving us with a sublininal question that is there to put doubt into our head of wht was just said. It is done with the same cunning as when the Serpent told Eve in the garden... Did not God say ye may eat of any tree in the gaerden?
The verse simply says the "Jesus" (Yahuashua) did not say John would not die but he said what's it to you Peter if he Tarry (remains) till I come.
Well it is true that he did not say that John (or Judas) would not die, But reason and think with wisdom !!! If this one tarries or in modern day English ... If this one remains ... until Yahuashua comes back (The second coming of the messiah) THEN how could he be dead, if he is to remain here? He would no doubt have to be alive.
This is wha Peter would be so concerned about what Yahuashua said to this particular one, because he was most likely protesting ... "how come he gets to live and I don't get to live until you come back!!!! implying... Hey that's not fair ... Didn't you say you will build your congregation (Church) upon this rock and you renamed me: "Little Rock" (Peter), because I was the first one to realise that you were the Messiah
For this reason as I have written, I also believe that the one that Yahuashua Loved is alive and well today in 2112. Steven Hocsak
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