Considering that it wouldn't matter what this earth looked like, that as humans, living in the environment our entire lives, we would find beauty in whatever it was, I doubt the earth is beautiful. The earth is beautiful to us, and its inhabitants, because they've lived on it for billions of years.
The salvation of the world is in man's suffering. - Faulkner
sure but its the arrogance of thinking one knows (through belief--which is blasphemy of the word "know") the random, weird, contradictory whims of this dude named god, then making threats about hell when the only proofs lie in arrogance and ignorance, and finally admitting that you can't wait to throw the end of the world party with jesus---both of you toasting all the sinners into non-existence.Originally Posted by Cat_Brenners
again, i've said it before on these forums. belief needs to be put on trial.
this is because faith is constantly given more value/virtue than open mindedness.
stone age homo sapiens also liked to attribute things they didnt understand, like thunder and lightning for an example, to a god. seems like, as a species, we cant seem to shake this archaic tendency. this doesnt prove the existence of god. it just proves that old habits are hard to break and that we like to name the unknown. makes us feel like we know it
Last edited by billyjack; 01-12-2009 at 11:51 PM.
I said on another board that I keep getting quoated but misinterpreted. I pray for everyone and hope no one burns in hell. I think sometimes people finally have to say " Let's agree to disagree and I will pray for you and love you anyways". God bless.
Hugs, Cat
Cat Brenners
Er, I deleted this post because it was irrelevant.
Last edited by Zee.; 01-13-2009 at 03:06 AM.
By that I mean I hope everyone makes their peace with God but I know it won't happen. Just wish it could be so.
Hugs, Cat
Cat Brenners
So it seems you are a fan of science - abit of a too much believer in science? I ask you, can science touch the spiritual level? I see you are relying on science to answer your interrogations about faith and belief however I am sorry to point out, it just never will.
There are differences between the physical world we live here and now and the eternal worlds in afterlife. As you, an atheist do not accept God in your life, you admitted "We contribute basically nothing to it." it being the world. This is natural, since you have no sense of spiritual motivation dedicated to a living God. The religious however is the opposite; we have a fixed motivation in our lives in earth and life in heaven. We do not think that we ourselves contribute nothing to the world. That my friend, is the difference between you and I, even though we may be compromised and surrounded by the same matter of the world.
Belief needs to be put on trial? For what offense? What did belief ever do to upset you? Belief is something personal; I have a sense of belief, you have a sense of belief in something completely different. We are all human, unique and no two are the same. Each individuals holds on to a belief that does not require the other to hold the same. What does it matter for you when you dont have to believe in someone elses belief? If someone has a completely contrasting belief than yours, then dont rebuke and disagree it too seriously - everyone in the world has a right to have a belief and no one should dare stop one from having that belief.
Well, you can't "believe" in science, because science is not a belief. It is a procedure of collecting evidence, researching, investigating and observing. Plus, science does give us spirituality. You feel happy when you think of religion, and you feel things you can't explain, am I correct? That's your brain giving you those feelings. There's no rationality in faith. Logic and rationality is what places humans on top of the food chain, and when we build our lives around faith we discredit those traits. Of course all humans have a sense of wonder, and they question whether a god exists or not. But why should we subscribe so heavily to the belief in a god based on pure faith? You probably don't believe in Norse gods such as Odin and Thor. I don't think you believe in scientology either -- yet there's about as much truth to scientology being correct then there is Christianity (or any monotheistic religion for that matter). So who says the Judeo-Christian god is the right one? Irrational conclusions, i.e. faith.
And by the world, I meant the natural world, because you kept harping on how everything in nature is somehow divine. If you look in the context of OUR world, the one we created, then yes, we have contributed great things. We have a civilized system of government, currency, language, architecture, et cetera. But that means nothing when nature is involved. We are not even a dot on the map in regards to the universe. I don't see how you can argue that. Our intellect gives us a superiority complex and is easily explainable with science.
But let me make my stance clear -- I understand people who believe in god because I have wondered that so many times myself. Although I'm an atheist I don't trot around pretending like that's the absolute truth because we can never know. However, I don't see how someone can believe so heavily in the idea of a god existing. Nothing makes the bible more important than the Qu'ran or the Bhagavad Gita or even Norse mythology, and vice versa for all those.
JacobF,
I admire and agree with most of what you say. But one line I find rather bemusing. You say that "Although I'm an atheist I don't trot around pretending like that's the absolute truth because we can never know". Does that statement not make you an agnostic rather than an atheist?
I call myself an atheist, because, for me, neither knowledge or truth have to be absolute. If they did, we would all have to call ourselves solipsists. But just as the solipsist goes too far with his or her quest for certainty, so does the aspiring agnostic. We CAN say we know there is no god with as much certainty as we can say we know anything else, that we know the sun will rise tomorrow. In fact, our observations and experiments show that the existence of god is as likely as the sun not rising tomorrow: ie there is no evidence to suggest either to be the case, and all our observations suggest the contrary.
Faith is believing what you know ain't so - Mark Twain
The preachers deal with men of straw, as they are men of straw themselves - Henry David Thoreau
The way to see faith is to shut the eye of reason - Benjamin Franklin
The teaching of the church, theoretically astute, is a lie in practice and a compound of vulgar superstitions and sorcery - Leo Tolstoy
What sort of experiments and observations suggest that there is no God? I can understand how someone could say there is no evidence that must necessarily be attributed to the existence of God, but I don't know what tests have been run that show that God probably does not exist.
I call myself an atheist because that's my subjective belief. I really don't think there is a god or gods. What I said, that we can never know if there is a god, was more against the notion that there absolutely is no god, because how can we ever know that? I'm simply inclined to believe there is no god because there has never been any evidence or inklings toward one existing. It is, to me, the most rational and truthful stance. I suppose that makes me a weak atheist, but so be it.
As an atheist I just want to point out that were not anti-theists. There is a difference. I agree with the atheists here and what our opinion is, hopefully not being too presumptious here, while we do not believe in the spiritual world our only objection is when scripture or dogma makes assertions about the physical universe that are incorrect. Even if they were correct an appeal to dogma would halt progress. Atheists believe in the scientific method not scientific theories that exist today. We only use the ones we have currently because they are the best. We're expecting better.
As for the spiritual I think most of us here nailed it. I think most of us have some wonder and appreciation for the universe only because we are conscious observers. Like other posters have said its only beautiful to us.
There might exists a god or gods beyond the universe but after all the millenia of billions of people begging for "His" appearance "He" is at best sadistic.
Everything we do and everything we hear -- everyone we are around, all this has effect on us. I am going to leave these forums for a little while at least, because I am not helping anyone I think, and I am not being helped myself because I think I care too much about all you people. When I am trying to tell people about the divine, I am not trying to get people to be irrational. The divine is not irrational. But I am not trying to convince you of this, I am merely trying to give you an alternate option, an alternate route, to atheism. Cat and skasian have said things well. Christ said he was teaching a well-spring which was inside us, and which did not ever end. I have partly realized this is love of God, dormant within us. You cannot have this randomly or for no reason, or if you just wish to demand it. Everything in our life is made up of our own intentions, of what we hear, what we say, what we do, eat, breathe, what we read, etc; it's a vast conglomorations of intention and suggestion and will. Godhead is not irrational, actually Godhead is supreme and infinite. This may seem foreign -- especially in our society which revolves around the desire for sex enjoyment. But actually we are souls, we are spirit, we are not just matter. We can't derive happiness from squeezing it out of matter - it doesn't work. And so we should seek for God, seek out the soul - Harrison said this often. And this is what I was trying to discuss. I was trying to discuss the divine. But it does not work if people do not come with any kind of open mind. If they wish to start a war on belief -- on faith. This is actually something like nihilism. Anyway I just wished to say that I wish you all peace -- and God is not saddistic He is the source of love, beauty, truth, etc. You do not see it but if you search for it you will find it. This is part of the infinte source from which you are sprung. It is your right. It is much better than living for material life. But while it is not offensive to me for someone to say they are atheist -- trust me, it is not -- it is offensive for believers -- devotees -- to be insulted, to be called delusional, and this has happened.
Actually there are traditions from all around the world which go very far back -- philosophical traditions, religious traditions... I say tradition but i don't mean dogma, because these traditions are made up of the lives and contributions of so many people. There is not a place you can go on this earth where you will not find love and beauty.
Um, so yeah, peace and good health. Bye.
Well, I tried to be as respectful as I could. And to be honest, I thought I approached this thread with a pretty open mind. I simply posed general questions to believers in the thread (I think I asked skasian about the Old Testament, I'll have to look back and see) and it continued from there.
Once again, I see no inklings of insult or animosity from any atheist or believer in this thread. Compared to other religious threads I have seen on other forums, this one is pretty civil.
I apologize sincerely if you thought I meant this at all about you, I didn't. And looking back a couple of pages I see you are right about this thread. So perhaps it is just a delayed reaction to people being called "delusional." In this case I wrote it on the wrong thread... I apologize and withdraw what I said. I guess in that light it isn't helpful. But if anyone calls anyone delusional, I am gone.
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