The tyger

[whiteangel]

yes, i mean change is exactly what he seeks in his poetry, it is the fundamental message i think of his songs, of M of H+H, but here in Thel....i cannot see what change he is going for....all i see is a girl asking why things "fade" and asking clouds, lilies, worm and a clay who then takes her into the underground were she hears a the "voice of sorrow" in the "hollow pit" and her question is not answred but more are given to her.....she is left confused..... what change does Blake then want in this poem? What is his social vision here? very confusing.

[JCamilo]

I suppose he is saying first that all ideal have a dark side. (or showing it because as we stabilished, he had a dark side himself). Also, that those who want to learn must seek it out, and not trust everything to happens just nicely. He may be pointing also to the ""Masters" that they are far from perfect as they think...
I do not think he is saying something like a motto, but ideas of what he believe that as whole we could identify as his belief...
Allegories are nast, the more they seem as something simple, more you need to seek out of the text for possible meanings. Maybe you should contrast this poem with songs of innocence...

[whiteangel]

yes, I might just do that

[whiteangel]

with Blake i have realised, there is never an answer

[JCamilo]

with Blake? With Keats, Kafka, Borges, Dante, Shakespeare, Voltaire, Milton, Byron, Browning, Goethe, Joyce, Tolstoi...
the validity of the answer depends on how good it is.

[whiteangel]

ah, Keats can at times be depressing....his letters on love are some what annoying, I cant believe he thought we would one day want to read them.
Shakespeare is amazing- love him
Milton is just amusing, Paradise lost is quite comical - "Devils - side" he is amazing to be writing it in the times religion was at the forefront of all things.
Byron- well he is hardly excellent....and god his personal life is quite sordid, makes one dislike his works.
Voltaire - I was reading his essay on Hamlet the other day, quite good, I haven't read much by him.
Joyce - he is brilliant. simple yet amazing....a little like Blake
T - is that the "Brothers of ....." he wrote? God i didn't enjoy it if he did
No idea who KafKa or Borges even are.

[whiteangel]

Darn not long till my Blake assessment! I have a Feeling I will fail

[JCamilo]

ah, Keats can at times be depressing....his letters on love are some what annoying, I cant believe he thought we would one day want to read them.

Heh, he must be depressing, it is a guy who discover he is dying at sametime that he notices he would be the greatest poet of his time. Notheless, his poetry is amazing and his critical sense also. A bit like Blake, he is an outsider of the rich group, but his style is completely different...

Shakespeare is amazing- love him
Milton is just amusing, Paradise lost is quite comical - "Devils - side" he is amazing to be writing it in the times religion was at the forefront of all things.

Altough, it was guys like Blake, Byron, etc who turned Milton to the God-sides to devil side. Ok, Lucifer in Paradise lost steals the show and is amazing, but he was not exactly what Milton wanted to build as hero. He was also rebelious in many senses - no wonder he became the reference to all those XVIII - XIX poets.

Byron- well he is hardly excellent....and god his personal life is quite sordid, makes one dislike his works.

There is good stuff coming from, of course, many times his fame and life dampers his balance, but check out Dom Juan. His life, well, he was a egoistical bastard, but even so, he was poetry walking by. Give the guy a chace

Voltaire - I was reading his essay on Hamlet the other day, quite good, I haven't read much by him.

Voltaire is a matter of style, however I would hardly get near him while talking about Shakespeare or Dante. The french philosopher once said Shakespeare was good but too insular to be eternal and have sucess outside europe and listed some french and italian autors that were better. Netheless to say, none went. However, he is a wonderful, his short stories mostly.

Joyce - he is brilliant. simple yet amazing....a little like Blake

Yup, brilliant indeed.

T - is that the "Brothers of ....." he wrote? God i didn't enjoy it if he did[/quote]

No, that one is Dostoievisky. I like both, as romancists. Tolstoi was a the author of War and Peace and Anna Karenina.

No idea who KafKa or Borges even are.

Kafka is a enigma. Short stories-novels writer of XX century. His stories had touch of grotesque and unusual. At some momment he is brillant. Borges is from Argetina, wrote about everything, his capacity of literary criticism is amazing. Lots of points with Blake and huge fan of him. When Borges teached english literature in the Buenos Aires University, Blake was one chapter of the story.

[whiteangel]

Heh, I have been inspired to read some Voltaire short stories and Kafka! and OMG Borges is a Blakian critic? god I MUST read him......is there anything he write on Blake you would recommend or any short synopsis of what he has said? would be a great help

And yes i should give Byron a chance....I did like his poem Prometheus.....

Do you also study /studied literature? obviously you are a fan...

[JCamilo]

I work mostly with Oral Literatura and had a specialization on oral-writing evolution of literature.
Borges was fascinated with english literature and gnostic/kaballah/metaphysics, so you see how he liked Blake (he also liked to read swenderborg, because to borges philosophical and religious texts and systems are also meant to be studies like fiction). He was quite good at that (and he was fascinated with tigers). If you can get the chapter of his classes where he talks about Blake it is a great step. There is a chapter on Swederborg that can be useful also. The thing is what language do you read?

[whiteangel]

Blake is a Metaphysic? hmmm....is that not Donne like poetry?
what time period was Borges?

I read English.

[JCamilo]

yeah, he is, altough you may turn this in a either or not he is romantic discussion.
Borges is a XX century writer.
Ok, shall I contact you outside here, I think this chat between you and me went beyond blake...

[whiteangel]

yes. Heh.