Living without religions

[NikolaiI]

That is similar to what Nikolai described, and I think he is not Buddhist (Correct me if Im wrong Nik) anyway I have a question about the creation, what does Buddishts believe about creation or the start of the universe? Or is this like rebirth, how 75% believes in it while the others doesnt?

No I am not, I studied various Buddhist scriptures and writings, but I am a Vaisnava. I serve and worship Lord Hari, who is the original personality of Godhead. Equal to Hari are Visnu, Ram, Krishna, Govinda, etc. Krishna-Buddha-Allah-JHWA, all are Krsna, all are one.

Having said that, I would like to reply to Neely in saying that there is much more to Buddhism than morality. There is also beauty, Buddhism is in itself the simultaneous search for beauty and truth. There is great beauty in deep wisdom, and there is beauty which can only be seen when one has penetrated the deep essence of buddha-nature. One can only see this beauty when one has found enlightenment, or one's own equivalent, such as Mind of Light, Christ-consciousness, peace, nirvana, etc. And Buddhism is scientific, a systematic way of bringing about this enlightenment, when one will see the beauty of the buddha, in the greatest and smallest discernments. It is this enlightenment which is beyond, gone beyond, gone completely beyond. This can be attained through many different schools in Buddhism, but fairly essential is the status of the spiritual master, or teacher as you would say. Also it's so beneficial to associate with practicing monks and lay - then you will see what the practice actually is. Buddhists eat only food which is offered, only which is strictestly vegetarian, and they also don't eat garlic. They only eat at particular times which are scheduled arounds time for prayer and meditation, when they chant sacred mantras and bow many times before the Buddhas. Buddhism is many things, but one thing which is not to be un-emphasized is the power of health and goodness, refreshment, to be found within a Buddhist community. Buddhists practice 24/7, and even a small association with them can be very beneficial. Buddhsits often exhibit great health because they are not partaking in any karma from eating meat, and they are always engaged in meditation.

The only downside to Buddhism, that I have had, is that it lacks knowledge about the soul, and about God, and truly it doesn't know exactly what and who the boddhisattvas and Buddhas which are honored, revered, offered and prayed to. Although I say this and it is probably very premature. Intelligent ones in this situation realize who the buddha is... although here we come across - logically and systematically, as could happen in what other religion?- the idea "if you know you can't say but if you don't know you can't be told." In other words - if you know who the buddha is, who bodhisattvas are, you are enlightened, but if you don't know, you can't know, because you must know to know. So what I am trying to say is that a Buddhist's practice is not any less perfect than a Christians, because if a Buddhist understands who the Buddha is then he has attained it himself.

[skasian]

Absolutely, morality is at the very heart of Buddhism doing good for others is one of the absolute core objectives of it found in the eightfold path. The idea of personal development, is not personal as such, it is effective only in relation to others. A Buddhist aims to live by peace for all, even those aggressive towards them. I'll post you an interesting link about this later.



I know that this is not aimed at me as such but remember that the 75% mark is only my best guess based on nothing much. My answer would be that I distrust all "Buddhism is ..." statements, Buddhism is highly individual and it is NOT necessary to believe in re-birth in order to follow its philosophy. I don't really know about the creation, but as Buddhists do not believe in God, I suppose they would turn to science in order to answer the question.

Yes, I think you have answered all my curiosities and your explanations are greatly appreciated.

[skasian]

No I am not, I studied various Buddhist scriptures and writings, but I am a Vaisnava. I serve and worship Lord Hari, who is the original personality of Godhead. Equal to Hari are Visnu, Ram, Krishna, Govinda, etc. Krishna-Buddha-Allah-JHWA, all are Krsna, all are one.

Having said that, I would like to reply to Neely in saying that there is much more to Buddhism than morality. There is also beauty, Buddhism is in itself the simultaneous search for beauty and truth. There is great beauty in deep wisdom, and there is beauty which can only be seen when one has penetrated the deep essence of buddha-nature. One can only see this beauty when one has found enlightenment, or one's own equivalent, such as Mind of Light, Christ-consciousness, peace, nirvana, etc. And Buddhism is scientific, a systematic way of bringing about this enlightenment, when one will see the beauty of the buddha, in the greatest and smallest discernments. It is this enlightenment which is beyond, gone beyond, gone completely beyond. This can be attained through many different schools in Buddhism, but fairly essential is the status of the spiritual master, or teacher as you would say. Also it's so beneficial to associate with practicing monks and lay - then you will see what the practice actually is. Buddhists eat only food which is offered, only which is strictestly vegetarian, and they also don't eat garlic. They only eat at particular times which are scheduled arounds time for prayer and meditation, when they chant sacred mantras and bow many times before the Buddhas. Buddhism is many things, but one thing which is not to be un-emphasized is the power of health and goodness, refreshment, to be found within a Buddhist community. Buddhists practice 24/7, and even a small association with them can be very beneficial. Buddhsits often exhibit great health because they are not partaking in any karma from eating meat, and they are always engaged in meditation.

The only downside to Buddhism, that I have had, is that it lacks knowledge about the soul, and about God, and truly it doesn't know exactly what and who the boddhisattvas and Buddhas which are honored, revered, offered and prayed to. Although I say this and it is probably very premature. Intelligent ones in this situation realize who the buddha is... although here we come across - logically and systematically, as could happen in what other religion?- the idea "if you know you can't say but if you don't know you can't be told." In other words - if you know who the buddha is, who bodhisattvas are, you are enlightened, but if you don't know, you can't know, because you must know to know. So what I am trying to say is that a Buddhist's practice is not any less perfect than a Christians, because if a Buddhist understands who the Buddha is then he has attained it himself.

Krishna and Buddah are the same?? Woah, you got me confused here, are you saying Buddhism and Hindism are linked as well as the Vaisnava religion??

Ah thank you for adding more from Neely's views, I always found Buddhism something very peaceful and beautiful in the same time, especially like the water lily which I know is linked with Buddhism some how. About vegetarians, it is strange how some of my friends are Buddhist, as they come from a Buddhist families, and they arent vegetarian, in Buddhist terms, what will happen to them?
As we have been discussing Buddhism, I have one more question about and it would be great if you or Neely or anyone could suggest an answer. One of my Buddhist friend always wears a bracelet which are made up of small square wooden blocks, and in each of these blocks have carvings that resemble the Nazi symbol. I have seen the same symbol in Buddhist drawings and carvings, but I do not understand why Nazi borrowed such symbol for their own. What are the significance of this symbol that made the Nazi to use this?

[blazeofglory]

In point of fact there are many similarities between Buddhism and Hinduism. In fact I do not say Hinduism, and I do not like the term for it creates a sectarianism. I call better the Vedic society.
In fact Buddhism has taken some of the best things from Vedic literature.

The Vedas are the lifeblood of eastern philosophy whether you call Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and the like.

The Vedas are the source or the fountainheads of many religions, cultures.

Sanskrit is the source of many other languages, even some European languages too.

I do not in fact support any religions. I am versed in many books of religions and scriptures but Sanskrit scriptures are unbeatable in terms of philosophy and literature.

[NikolaiI]

I mean that in the sense that the form of Krishna is absolute bliss and knowledge and near as I can tell this is also the nature of the Buddha. Why do I liken Buddha to God? Because Buddha is within and without. Within it is as Buddha-nature, and without it is as reality. This may seem esoteric but it is the logical conclusion of the idea of buddha-nature.

This is not what the majority of Buddhists believe, and so Buddhism is not so much the same as Hinduism, but it's just my understanding of it.

[LitNetIsGreat]

QUOTE=skasian
About vegetarians, it is strange how some of my friends are Buddhist, as they come from a Buddhist families, and they arent vegetarian, in Buddhist terms, what will happen to them?

Again it depends on how it is interpreted by the individual, as I don't believe in re-birth, for me nothing. For those who do I'm not sure, that they will come back as bacon I suppose? Personally I'm not strickly a vegetarian though I do limit my meat intake.

Vegetarianism and Buddhism is a contentious issue and always draws sharp opinions from those interested in the Buddhist philosophy. In the precepts it says about not killing or causing harm to a living being, which is a clear sign to be vegetarian, but then again the Buddha himself (as does the present day Dali Lama) ate meat. It is a conflicting issue that is best left to the individual to decide on. In the same way drinking alcohol also divides Buddhist thought, again it is to be a thing left for the individual to decide for themselves, Buddhism is a very personal philosophy/religion and letting go of such views are perhaps more important than holding on to them anyway.

I don't know about the symbol, I remember that the Nazis took it from something else, not necessarily Buddhist, but what it is exactly I'm not sure.

[skasian]

Thank you all for expressing your views and knowledges. Back to the main subject of living without religions, I cannot possibly imagine a world without religion, which I think is unrealistic, living without God. Without God there is no existance, no nothing. How can there be no religion in our lives when God is truely the centre of our lives and everything that we should give up for.

[billyjack]

I cannot possibly imagine a world without religion, which I think is unrealistic, living without God. Without God there is no existance, no nothing.

can't imagine eh? unrealistic? hows bout 2,000 years ago; before your religion existed. or 3,000 or so years ago; before any modern day religion existed?

living without god? Scandinavian countries do just this. And as far as standard of living goes they're top notch world wide. their crime rate (godlessness if you will) is minuscule compared to that of religious countries (say the USA for instance--91% believe in a god of some sort)

How can there be no religion in our lives when God is truely the centre of our lives and everything that we should give up for.

this is revealing and troubling and a good example of why religion most certainly needs to be questioned. you say "we" as if all should subscribe to your axiom of "giving up everything" in the name of god. I'll give you the larry david analogy or somewhere near abouts to it to illustrate my point: you like lobster. so you think everyone should like lobster.

[NikolaiI]

I agree with you, skasian, because religion (which I would define as the science of self-realization, the path of God-realization, and sanatana-dharma the way of the soul) is the point of life. Why can the search for God not wait? Because serving God is fulfilling everything, just like watering the roots of the tree is the only way to distribute water to the rest of the tree. Similarly, God is the root of existence, so to go back to God is to return to life, knowledge, and bliss. It does require sacrifice such as sacrifice of false ego - believing "I am the body," or "I am simply matter and not spirit." Because in truth we are spirit - all matter comes from spirit and all of the universe comes from God.

People disbelieve in God because they disbelieve in the possibility of an Absolute Good. But God exists, God is simply reality. God is love, peace, knowledge, and bliss. The center of everything, the source, and the root of all, is this Absolute Truth, the original source of all other forms. It is simply the case. And when you make your life centered around God, this is only when you can make true advancement in life; that is, true growth which is not based on temporary or false instructions. God is the creator of all of this, and he is eternal. The material manifestation is not eternal, however, and our physical bodies are not eternal. If we never recognize and serve God in this life, then we will not make true progress (or much of it) and we will stay within the material universe, and take another body, our energy refreshed, in a higher or lower birth. So goes the seemingly endless cycle of birth and death.

An elephant cannot make great progress in the river, though he is very powerful. If the river is strong it will sweep him away. But a fish, even though he is much smaller, can swim even up and against the current. Why is this? Because he takes shelter of the river. He is very naturally existing in the river. Similarly, all of us, as originally transcendental, pure, blissful souls, situated fully in knowledge of our relationship to the Supreme, exist very naturally in the Supreme. If we take shelter of God, then the world, which is in general in ignorance about the soul, about God, in other words; covered by Maya, is no longer an obstacle for us. We would not be subject to birth and death anymore. But we do not demand this anyway. We simly have become attracted to God, who is the source of all beauty, knowledge, wisdom, strength, wealth, and fame; in other words, the all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we are simply living we should be, no more or less.

[edit: be clear as to how I defined religion. It is the path of the soul, not Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or any other religion. My religion is sanatana-dharma. The nature of the soul is service; be it service to our family, our country, our desires, our company (working). All of these are temporary service, however, but if we do service for God it brings us eternal spiritual merit. It has nothing to do with any caste or creed; it is simply our natural, transcendental position of our relationship with the Surpeme.]

[skasian]

can't imagine eh? unrealistic? hows bout 2,000 years ago; before your religion existed. or 3,000 or so years ago; before any modern day religion existed?

living without god? Scandinavian countries do just this. And as far as standard of living goes they're top notch world wide. their crime rate (godlessness if you will) is minuscule compared to that of religious countries (say the USA for instance--91% believe in a god of some sort)



this is revealing and troubling and a good example of why religion most certainly needs to be questioned. you say "we" as if all should subscribe to your axiom of "giving up everything" in the name of god. I'll give you the larry david analogy or somewhere near abouts to it to illustrate my point: you like lobster. so you think everyone should like lobster.

The bible accounts that the world existed around 4000years ago, and in this basis from the beginning mankind served God, therefore religion always has been with mankind from Creation.

As a Christian, it is natural for me to believe that all people in this world should give up everything to God. The reason some people dont agree this is because they are atheists. Most religion promote that they should give up their lives to their God. It is simple and powerful belief that governs what an individual thinks and they have every right to do so.

[skasian]

I agree with you, skasian, because religion (which I would define as the science of self-realization, the path of God-realization, and sanatana-dharma the way of the soul) is the point of life. Why can the search for God not wait? Because serving God is fulfilling everything, just like watering the roots of the tree is the only way to distribute water to the rest of the tree. Similarly, God is the root of existence, so to go back to God is to return to life, knowledge, and bliss. It does require sacrifice such as sacrifice of false ego - believing "I am the body," or "I am simply matter and not spirit." Because in truth we are spirit - all matter comes from spirit and all of the universe comes from God.

People disbelieve in God because they disbelieve in the possibility of an Absolute Good. But God exists, God is simply reality. God is love, peace, knowledge, and bliss. The center of everything, the source, and the root of all, is this Absolute Truth, the original source of all other forms. It is simply the case. And when you make your life centered around God, this is only when you can make true advancement in life; that is, true growth which is not based on temporary or false instructions. God is the creator of all of this, and he is eternal. The material manifestation is not eternal, however, and our physical bodies are not eternal. If we never recognize and serve God in this life, then we will not make true progress (or much of it) and we will stay within the material universe, and take another body, our energy refreshed, in a higher or lower birth. So goes the seemingly endless cycle of birth and death.

An elephant cannot make great progress in the river, though he is very powerful. If the river is strong it will sweep him away. But a fish, even though he is much smaller, can swim even up and against the current. Why is this? Because he takes shelter of the river. He is very naturally existing in the river. Similarly, all of us, as originally transcendental, pure, blissful souls, situated fully in knowledge of our relationship to the Supreme, exist very naturally in the Supreme. If we take shelter of God, then the world, which is in general in ignorance about the soul, about God, in other words; covered by Maya, is no longer an obstacle for us. We would not be subject to birth and death anymore. But we do not demand this anyway. We simly have become attracted to God, who is the source of all beauty, knowledge, wisdom, strength, wealth, and fame; in other words, the all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we are simply living we should be, no more or less.

So true, thank you for your enlightning words.

[NikolaiI]

So true, thank you for your enlightning words.

Your words are simple and also explained it better than I can. The whole point or the only main point I wished to really point out was that since God is the source of beauty, wisdom... to make him the center of our lives creates a change, which is, now our lives have peace and God at their center. Also, our relationship with God is our life, or it is more than simply life, since God is the source of all life.

[lupe]

can't imagine eh? unrealistic? hows bout 2,000 years ago; before your religion existed. or 3,000 or so years ago; before any modern day religion existed?

living without god? Scandinavian countries do just this. And as far as standard of living goes they're top notch world wide. their crime rate (godlessness if you will) is minuscule compared to that of religious countries (say the USA for instance--91% believe in a god of some sort)



this is revealing and troubling and a good example of why religion most certainly needs to be questioned. you say "we" as if all should subscribe to your axiom of "giving up everything" in the name of god. I'll give you the larry david analogy or somewhere near abouts to it to illustrate my point: you like lobster. so you think everyone should like lobster.

shhhhh.... don't wake up Skasian and NikolaiI, please. Their conversation is so touching!

[Saladin]

I'll give you the larry david analogy or somewhere near abouts to it to illustrate my point: you like lobster. so you think everyone should like lobster.

Reversed: You dont like lobster, so you think everybody doesn`t like lobster. I must admit that both Nikolai and skasian have some good and valid points. God and religion have been a part of humanity since the birth of man.

Since you mentioned Scandinavia and i live there, i would clarify something. Well you are right that many scandinavians are secular, but many believe in a God or some kind of supernatural entity. So you have to see the bigger picture.

What i mean about God and religion? Well i consider religion to be a private issue, but i would say i agree with what the great scandinavian (danish) philosopher Kierkegaard said and i think both Nikolai and skasian would agree.

"A mans life is wasted when he lives on, so deceived by the joys of life
or by its sorrows, that he never becomes decisively conscious of himself
as spirit, as self, that is, he never is aware in the deepest sense that
there is a God."

- Søren Kierkegaard

[Saladin]

Regarding hell and all that stuff. I am a muslim why would i care if catholics mean i am a heathen, ergo i will go to hellfire? Or buddhists mean i wont reach Nirvana? Or hindus think i can`t reach moksha since i am not a devout hindu?

In the same way should a non-religious person not care about what religious writings or dogmas says. For instance - I dont believe that the Easter Bunny will rob me, since i dont even believe he exists. So if you dont believe on hell and the fire, what is the problem?

Digression:
Hehe. When i first registered myself in this forum i promised myself not to involve in discussion which is about politic or religion. Seems like i broke my promise to myself.