Revenge: good or bad?

[Zee.]

As a buddhist, it should be against my nature to kill, anything for that matter.
I mean, i save ants from the damn shower...

but..the thought of someone wiping out my family, its hard to banish the thought of killing from my mind

[skasian]

Talking of Buddhism, I think it seems inevitable for a religious person to link religion with revenge, just as limajean you did. The reason why I am bringing this point is because delta40 suggested that people should look for other ways of discussing revenge other than religion. In order to satisfy his suggestion, may be we should not include religion in this thread any longer.

Delta40, the only reason why we religious users link revenge with religion is because sense of morality is discussed in this thread: revenge, and religion promotes a strong sense of morality therefore, it becomes natural for us to link religion with nature of revenge.

[Zee.]

Both religous and non religious people have morals, this dictates one's approach to revenge, i believe.
Then again, theres a big difference between what you want to do and what you're told - by religious beliefs, you shouldn't do.

[skasian]

Both religous and non religious people have morals, this dictates one's approach to revenge, i believe.
Then again, theres a big difference between what you want to do and what you're told - by religious beliefs, you shouldn't do.

True, but the religious beliefs that tells people what they should do and what they should avoid are based by morality, always telling us to do the good over the bad. Except for the religions that promote freewill of course, however karma seems to promote good as well: Do the right thing to get good things back to you.

[Dark Muse]

Do you mind if you could please give that passage that supports violence? I never been across a passage that supports violence in a way that tell us that it is acceptable.

I am suggesting that because there seems to be no passage that tells us that we should commit violence, and there is a very direct passage that tells us revenge should be avoided. (yes turn other cheek is one) As there cant be another interpretation that revenge is bad, it is simple, bible tells us that violence, especially in form of violence, is unacceptable.

I don't have the Bible memorized but I am sure with a little looking into I can find one.

[Delta40]

Isn't the old an eye for an eye very misquoted and taken totally out of context? What I mean to say so I am not misunderstood is this: Jesus totally refuted this approach and recommended turning the other cheek. Still, even today people conveniently extract that one line, as if it were some sort of justification for revenge and say because it is written in the bible, it is legitimate.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I've posted this in another thread but it is of interest to this disscusion if you want to see the Buddhist take on the matter. (You could put me firmly in the non-revenge camp.)

The Parable of the Saw
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...021x.budd.html

It is featured right at the bottom of the link posted if you want to read it.

[Dark Muse]

Isn't the old an eye for an eye very misquoted and taken totally out of context? What I mean to say so I am not misunderstood is this: Jesus totally refuted this approach and recommended turning the other cheek. Still, even today people conveniently extract that one line, as if it were some sort of justification for revenge and say because it is written in the bible, it is legitimate.

But if you say, that is not legtimate just becasue it is written in the Bible, then nothing in the Bibile can be called "legitimate"

For who is to determine what passages are more legitmate then others?

[Delta40]

That is my point! People extract what they want to use and apply incorrect interpretation. They don't look at the context in which it is said. That is what makes the part passage they use non-legitimate.

[Dark Muse]

Though people take An eye for an eye out of context, the passage still supports the use of violence, as well as captial punishment for certain offesneces.

He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death
(That is a pretty clear cut case for the death pently right there)

And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
(The execution of unruly children)

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money
(It is ok to beat your slaves as long as they survive the beating)

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot

Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe

And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.

And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
(It's okay to beat your slaves; even if they die you won't be punished, just as long as they survive a day or two after the beating. But avoid excessive damage to their eyes or teeth. Otherwise you may have to set them free.)

But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
(If your ox kills someone, you should be put to death, and your ox stoned to death)

[Ohmyscience]

Interesting how revenge is tied up so much with religion and morality. The word revenge has negative connotations in the west. However if replace with other similar words like vindicate or retribution does it become easier to argue for?

skasian I do not know the exact passage in the bible but in the old testiment god is vengeful and he also commands his people to commit genocide. Of course if you do not refer to the old testament the new testament has problems as well. Can you really turn the other cheek knowing full well the perpetrator will harm others in the future?

I'm curious about the aphorism an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. This only applies to two parties with unsettled and differing ideas of justice. In homogenous societies punishment for heinous crimes are agreed upon. Technically it leaves two people blind?

[Jozanny]

I don't know about the cost of revenge itself, as even Dumas makes his 19th century superhero, the Count, exact too high a price, but the cost of not acting can also do you physiological harm, that I know. I was hurt, psychologically, and economically, by both a woman and an institution surrounding her, repeatedly over the years, after my career ended at another org they had partnered with, essentially meaning I still had a professional relationship with the first.

I am now about to get serious, and hire an attorney, file the appropriate grievance with the appropriate authority, and yet my inner psyche watching me dance like Bonzo wonders what I am going to achieve? Even in the event that I *win* concessions, or a settlement, can I really fix a broken and corrupt system that is a nationwide pathology of lies? (If you ask how I know this, I have met numerous former and angry disabled employees of said institution(s) which are federally mandated, but state controlled.)

In proportion to the degree of my anger, I am beginning to feel that the Italian mafia is, to a great degree, a cultural ingenuity.

Part of me in fact just wants to do something radical, like flee to Italy, and then continue to fight with my pen. Part of me wishes I had the brawn to send my former colleague to sleep with the fishes. The other part remembers how much I had once valued her friendship. I had a *talk* with her former boss this evening; he is dying. No one says anything but it is self-evident, as I knew him before his strokes and heart attacks. He doesn't want me to sue, and once more, tries to pacify me, even though he profited by certain events which caused me great suffering--and this time, it isn't enough. Not that I believed in him, her, or the old guard I came up with.

Perhaps I'll be sleeping with the fishes when the dust settles; maybe I should have fought back sooner. Maybe it is too late altogether.

[skasian]

I don't have the Bible memorized but I am sure with a little looking into I can find one.

I see you have provided passages that does contains reference of violence. But I assume this was taken out from the old testiment. If it is, then this is part of Law of Moses, where it is now unaccountable. It is because when Jesus was preaching, he altered the old rules.

[skasian]

That is my point! People extract what they want to use and apply incorrect interpretation. They don't look at the context in which it is said. That is what makes the part passage they use non-legitimate.

When the extract is directly straight forward then there is no chance of having an incorrect interpretation. As we were discussing revenge, the extract about Jesus turns the other cheek cant have multiple interpretation other than be forgiving and to avoid violence and revenge. If you want more information, read the context, it makes the extract even more straight forward.

[skasian]

Interesting how revenge is tied up so much with religion and morality. The word revenge has negative connotations in the west. However if replace with other similar words like vindicate or retribution does it become easier to argue for?

skasian I do not know the exact passage in the bible but in the old testiment god is vengeful and he also commands his people to commit genocide. Of course if you do not refer to the old testament the new testament has problems as well. Can you really turn the other cheek knowing full well the perpetrator will harm others in the future?

Ah, then there is the power of speech and persuation to help the offender from acting violent in the future. Turn the other cheek does not necessary mean that we should be dumbfolded and do nothing about the damage. Jesus gives an insight that violence is not the answer and there are other methods of approaching conflict. For example, talk to them without violence and revenge to smooth things out.