The Christian Hell

[skasian]

No apology needed.

I got fired up.I just want you to understand that none of my posts were intended to be hurtful to you.

You're good to debate with - i guess i gave my all

No no none of your posts were hurtful, it actually gave me an insight about the human response system. Thank you for debating, it gets the brain exercising.

But doesnt firing up induce you to give up your all into a discussion? I dont see any harm in giving all of yourself. The words you write is a representation of yourself, your personality, your belief. The better you write, the better you can represent yourself. Isnt that a good exercise?

I believe that being fired up is same as a stimuli that triggers a motivation and urge to use your communication skill to express your perspectives. Its beneficial to other people too since it gives so much insight on how people can see in so many different angles even though we are positioned in one plane or context.

[dzebra]

Yet, that's never happened, although maybe the Medical Journal of Outer Mongolia might try it on. Make that reputable medical journals have never reported such a case.

Quite a few claims have been made, but not once has a miracle been established.

I guess that could depend on one of two things:

-What makes something reputable? Wouldn't a medical journal lose reputation if it claims to not know something? Therefore it would be impossible for a reputable journal to claim miracles on a frequent basis, no matter if they were true or not. People who don't believe in miracles are common enough that a medical journal would not be reputable if it claimed a miracle.

-What constitutes a miracle? Is a normal act with perfect timing ever considered a miracle? When the odds are against survival, but then surgery goes well with none of the expected complications, is that considered a miracle? When someone needs a new liver and none are in stock, but one arrives the day before the person would die, is that considered a miracle? Sure, these things can be explained, but they are also pretty miraculous.

[Zee.]

Oh yes of course it is, but when it gets to the point where im arguing that oranges are apples, it gets a bit ridiculous.

[Zee.]

Also, this isnt the thread to say this, but i see youre from NZ
me too

[skasian]

Oh yes of course it is, but when it gets to the point where im arguing that oranges are apples, it gets a bit ridiculous.

May be oranges are apples. If you account that all fruits are the same or objects that grow on trees and produce seeds are the same or objects that start with a vowel are the same.

[skasian]

Also, this isnt the thread to say this, but i see youre from NZ
me too

Eh? Your location is Aussie, or are you just born here in NZ?
There are actually more NZers here using this site than I thought. Great stuff kiwis

[Zee.]

Born and raised in NZ, moved to aus

[skasian]

Are you pakeha? I never met a pakeha or any NZer that have a Buddhist background. Interesting.

[Zee.]

Indeed i am :] - i posted photos of me in the general chat forum, the photoalbum section.
But yes i am.
When i was much younger, both my mother and i used to go to teachings just outside of auckland. As ive gotten older, ive sort of..been a bit slack. Its part of my resolutions to pick it up.

[skasian]

Some one said that you were a "he" and I got confused since your avatar was a photo of a girl and at first I suspected it was you. Nice photos, I didnt know people uploaded pictures of themselves here.

I think you should continue building and developing your spiritual state as a Buddhist no matter what, as I believe there is nothing better in the world then being a strong, pure spirit.

[Zee.]

I do the same, i instantly assume many people on this board are males, i have no idea why :\ i even thought you were, despite the fact your avatar was a girl too.

I guess its the way many people express themselves - can be quite strong, not meaning to sound sexist or anything.
Lord, i just dug a hole..


Thank you

[skasian]

It is really strange how people first assume a user talking to them is a male..Did you know that there is a significant statistics in this forum that there are more females than males? And that in every country females outperform males in literacy, reading comprehension, and I am not being sexist either

Could I ask you how old you are? I also assumed that people aged more than 30 used this site but it looks like most are around 16~25, accounding to the polls.

[The Atheist]

Do you think that was fake?

Yes, I do.

It's been shown time and time again that "miracles" in church are fake, while none have been shown to be true.

In the lack of reputable evidence to the contrary, I must presume fakery.

And how could I have been lied to when I have experienced my self of see it with my own two eyes?

I believe you've been tricked or lied to, but I will also note that people are awful eyewitnesses. This is nothing against you personally, but it's again demonstrable that people seeing exactly the same event will report it vastly differently to each other.

I have to ask you, do you think love from your friends and family may be fake just because you cant see it?

But it can be seen.

The parts of the brain which work to create what we call love are well known and it can be seen working in scans of the brain, so I'm quite comfortable with it being a human construct based upon existeing instinctual traits.

And please dont suggest what I said was "fake". For me it was not fake as I experienced my shoulder joints moving and clicking in correct places as I felt intensive heat while praying. I dont mind if you dont believe in what I say but dont accuse me that I am fake, just move on if you suspect falseness.

I"m quite sure you're not faking personally, because I know what the human brain is capable of. I'm quite sure it's very real to you.

Some Christians believe that we should not practise anointing like Benny Hinn which scares them, as it is out of the ordinary.

You missed the point - it's not what Benny Hinn does from a religious perspective, it's because he's a proven fraud.

His act is carried out with people with pretend illnesses and paid volunteers who pretend to go into a trance.

The branches you were talking about, I apologise I wasnt accounting every branch of Christianity, such as Catholic, Orthodox.. But the people that claim as Christian, not Catholic or Orthodox, do believe in Hell as in the bible there are many verses that God talked about Hell.

My point was that your church, which will be of relatively recent formation, believes in something which the vast majority of christianity do not. I find it odd that organisations which arose in the past few decades still use theology which was renounced by that vast majority many years ago.

It's quite obvious that some people want to believe in eternal punishment.

I guess that could depend on one of two things:

-What makes something reputable?

In the case of medical journals, respectabuility is gained by the quality of its writing, the depth of its checking and the reliability of the organisation which runs it. In this way we have magazines like Lancet and the New England Medical Journal which are internationally accepted as being at the peak of medical science.

Wouldn't a medical journal lose reputation if it claims to not know something?

Nope; exactly the opposite, in fact.

It is because some things were unknown that we now have cures for those diseases. If a doctor discovers a new ailment, the journal will draw attantion to the fact that we don't know, and other doctors will be able to watch for and study the ailment.

That is one of the prime tasks of medical journals - to let people know about the unknowns.

Therefore it would be impossible for a reputable journal to claim miracles on a frequent basis, no matter if they were true or not. People who don't believe in miracles are common enough that a medical journal would not be reputable if it claimed a miracle.

Wrong again, sorry.

The thing is, medical miracles would be so easy to prove, because doctors keep very precise records.

If what we are told about church miracles was true, there would be a flood of cases every week going to their doctor and shouting "I'm cured!"

Where are they?

Isn't it just odd how those cured people will stand up and tell their church congregation they're cured, but they never tell their doctors?

-What constitutes a miracle? Is a normal act with perfect timing ever considered a miracle?

No. With seven billion people on the planet - that's 7,000,000,000, some 15 times the population of USA, or 300 times Australia's - the occasional coincidence is bound to happen.

When the odds are against survival, but then surgery goes well with none of the expected complications, is that considered a miracle?

No.

See the above numbers - if 1 in 1000 survives an operation and 10,000 operations take place annually, around 10 will survive.

Pure chance, nothing more.

When someone needs a new liver and none are in stock, but one arrives the day before the person would die, is that considered a miracle? Sure, these things can be explained, but they are also pretty miraculous.

I'd have to ask the family of the dead donor if they thought it was a miracle designed to save someone else's life before I answered that.

Are you pakeha? I never met a pakeha or any NZer that have a Buddhist background. Interesting.

You should attend a Buddhist temple at some stage - there are thousands of palagi Buddhists in NZ.

Please don't take offence, but you are clearly lacking in perspective on other religions - your entire knowledge seems to be someone else's interpretation of one book.

[skasian]

Yes, I do.

It's been shown time and time again that "miracles" in church are fake, while none have been shown to be true.

In the lack of reputable evidence to the contrary, I must presume fakery.



I believe you've been tricked or lied to, but I will also note that people are awful eyewitnesses. This is nothing against you personally, but it's again demonstrable that people seeing exactly the same event will report it vastly differently to each other.



But it can be seen.

The parts of the brain which work to create what we call love are well known and it can be seen working in scans of the brain, so I'm quite comfortable with it being a human construct based upon existeing instinctual traits.



I"m quite sure you're not faking personally, because I know what the human brain is capable of. I'm quite sure it's very real to you.



You missed the point - it's not what Benny Hinn does from a religious perspective, it's because he's a proven fraud.

His act is carried out with people with pretend illnesses and paid volunteers who pretend to go into a trance.



My point was that your church, which will be of relatively recent formation, believes in something which the vast majority of christianity do not. I find it odd that organisations which arose in the past few decades still use theology which was renounced by that vast majority many years ago.

It's quite obvious that some people want to believe in eternal punishment.

You should attend a Buddhist temple at some stage - there are thousands of palagi Buddhists in NZ.

Please don't take offence, but you are clearly lacking in perspective on other religions - your entire knowledge seems to be someone else's interpretation of one book.

I dont mind if you do think it is fake, but when you feel and see it for yourself, you can never describe it as fake. You may hear from me and think it is fake, but personally, as I encountered myself, as the miracles or supernatural happened to me, to my body, it is impossible for me to say it is fake. When something else controlling me and my speech, and having life of its own, I cant see it as fake. It is like saying to myself I am fake, which I know is impossible. Yes I have heard from many non believers that its part of psychology and that the brain can trick our emotions and body functions. But what I saw my own open wound being closed in matter of seconds is not psychology or trickery of the brain. Gold dusts forming from my palm was not psychology as it is impossible for our body substances to make gold. Some one said people around the world have been across similar miracles, where rubies start forming on palms and head, I seen some in youtube, and because I can relate, I cant see it as fake. Benny Hinn or people uploading videos on youtube, as they are spreading the Word of Jesus, I cant say anything about that, fake or not, let God take judgement on them. God blesses the truthful people that work hard for Him whereas punishes thoes who are fake and full of trickery. That is what I believe in. I dont want to accuse people of fakery, I just want God to deal with them individually.

About other sectors of Christianity that doesnt not believe in hell, I believe that believing whether hell exists or not is unimportant for Christians. This is because Christians believe that when we believe and love Jesus, we will be accepted to Heaven, therefore Hell should be no factor for us therefore whether it exists or doesnt, it doesnt matter. However methodist or psbyterian, I believe that a realm of Hell does exist that does punish people that doesnt love God. The point is, believing in hell or not, it does not affect our belief in God.

Actually, being active in this forum, I have been learning and gaining perspectives of other religions and finding it intriguing. My knowledge of Christianity is not overall built by the bible, as it is also built on daily experiences and spiritual encounters with God. Some life issues and problems have made me closer to God and it helped me to understand Him better.

[Rozzy]

Whether someone else believes in your miracle has no bearing on the reality if it is real or not, the facts would still be truth whether or not a single person believes them. Facts are funny things, they are what they are whether we agree with them or not.
I have both experienced miracles and seen them for others, so in my mind it is settled based on experience.
Hell is actually an easy concept to understand, it is judgement and justice at a level much higher than the realm we are answerable to now. This life we now live is finite but it is regulated by the infinite so that whatever we choose to believe here now will not change the course set by the infinite. God is infinite, I am finite, so I realise He sets the rules and I abide by them.
Simple beyond belief really