The Christian Hell

[skasian]

I said that whole religion was flawed. I didn't say I hated it, i barely insulted it. I pointed out a fact.
It's exremists like you who give it a bad name. You want respect for your religion? you're not going to get it by telling us we're all going to hell.

Your whole faith that you have built up is dependant on a book.

First Christianity is not all built up by the Bible, as there are spiritual encounters we have with God that help us live in the way we want.

Saying a system as holy as religion and remarking it is flawed is insult. I tolded you before that it is the same as remarking God is flawed. Do you understand this?

I told you this before yet I have to repeat myself. I never directly told you are going to hell, I just shared Christian aspect about Christian hell. If you commit yourself to engage in a discussion in the thread "The CHristian Hell" then why are you angst about the true aspects and rules Christian follow? If you want to discuss about it, you should be ready to hear the hard reality that Christians believe about their hell.

[skasian]

Ha, what a joker. Someone with bizarre, hateful, and selfish beliefs like yours has no call talking about common sense. If you want common sense: Any Creator who thinks it's okay to torment his children for eternity is an insane sadistic monster. I know you think if I understood I would realize that God has zero responsibility for torturing his kids. So I guess you think somebody's making Him do that. God the omnipotent has no choice. He created the entire universe for goodness sake. Hell was optional. Sheesh, very kooky, way beyond not common sense.

Thanks for not quoting the Bible though, that was nice of you, and a considerable relief. The reason I thought this was your thread was because you were complaining so much about people not saying what you wanted.

You say who anybody who disagrees with you just doesn't understand. Please explain to me and help me understand why the creator of this magnificent universe is insane and sadistic, not to mention dumb as a stump.

You have no intellectual or emotional access to how horrible your hateful religion makes other people feel. Your religion disrespects others, but they are not free to disrespect it. I know you are really proud of yourself for believing the torture-tale. Enjoy.

And don't worry about Hell. That's just baloney.

I never complained about what people thought, I was trying to give them the true insight what the Christian rule with afterlife was. Yes, most people here who disagrees with the idea of hell are simply misunderstood. If you want to know why, then read my previous posts in page 1~2. Like THe Atheist has pointed out, I think I am repeating the same thing to different people too much. If you have further enquires after reading my previous posts, feel free to discuss.

[skasian]

That's a fairly sad admission really - that you put a doctrine above yourself. If you have a look at history, it's an attitude which has led to some pretty awful problems.

Seriously, I've spent over thirty years debating christians - my uncle was a Canon in the Anglican church - and the enormous majority of people I've spoken to haven't been hurt at all by attacks on their religion. If faith is strong, it should be water off a duck's back.

If your god is omnipotent and taking notes according to the bible, then why would it bother you if someone attacks the god? Obviously, the god itself can't be hurt by it, and the only result can be an everlasting death and torture for whoever does that.

I can understand your defence of the religion, but demanding respect for religion always seems a bit of a cop out to me.



Yes, you've been replying to other posts, but as I noted, the replies seem to be more of something taken from a Jack Chick tract rather than discussion. We want to know what you, skasian, think, not what you've learned from pastors and fellow christians.



I certainly didn't want it to become insulting, because that will just get the thread closed.

And your opinion is appreciated, that's exactly what I did want - an explanation of how christians view hell and reconcile their belief with life in 2009.



Which is two ways of saying exactly the same thing. From your perspective, you told us several times that the only way to the god is through Jesus Christ and those who fail will go to hell for eternal torture. What you're doing is playing Pascal's Wager, but instead of blind chance, you're offering 100% certainty that hell is the only possible result for irredeemable heathens like myself. It doesn't concern me a whit, personally, and I don't fear for the souls of my children, despite the god itself promising damnation for them for at least the next three generations for my disinclination to believe.

See, while I think Pascal's Wager is silly, I can see the attraction.

Where I - and many others, as evinced so far - struggle is seeing the attraction in a doctrine of eternal punishment. This is why most christian sects don't believe it any more.

Sure, the bible and Jesus say that one must love and worship the god or be sent to hell/wherever, and parroting the words of the bible is fine, but meaningless.

The doctrine of equivalent eternal punishment for all sinners just doesn't gel with the standards most christians accept for their god, and I certainly agree with the earlier suggestion that Jesus himself would have trouble with your version of hell and how it works.

I'd love you to tell me how that doctrine makes you feel as a human being who is personally living in a land of milk & honey in 2009, but repetition of "god says so, so it must be good" doesn't fire. I'm not asking you to justify it - which is what you've tried to do in a roundabout way - but I'd like you to consider an analogy:

Three people are about to be executed by flaying alive. (flaying = peeling off the skin, a slow, agonising death.)

One is a murderer, one a rapist and the other is an accountant who wrote a letter accusing the government of fraud.

Now, there is no point arguing that it's wrong for #3 to die, because the rules were clear and he knew that his letter would attract the death penalty.

During their time in prison, before execution, the rapist and murderer both confessed their sins, begged Jesus for forgiveness and were baptised into the christian faith. #3 is a fervent atheist who refused to recant his crime and in fact was virtually held in solitary confinement as he continued to try to verbally attack the government.

How would that make you feel?



Directly/indirectly makes no difference - as above.

The question I have to ask is why are people here frustrated as they hear the true aspects and rule Christian have about afterlife? If people are interested to engage into this thread "the CHristian THread" then arent they suppose to be ready to hear the hard values that Christians have? Even if it was the any other religious hell we were talking about, it will trigger the same response, because some religions follow the rule that if you dont believe in their god, they dont get accepted to heaven. I thought people were more accepting to hear some values that seems unnatural for them, I thought people were able to turn a blind eye at these aspects. Clearly they arent.

Thank you for suggesting that I should think for myself than regurgitating what the pastor said. But as a Christian, what else should I think if the values of Christianity is identical to my thoughts?

It is true that God will punish the ones that insult Him and that He doesnt need His followers to stand up for him, however as His follower, I want the prevention of such punishment to other people. I have said this before, I think the disagreement is occuring because of lack of understandings of the Christian rule. Something doesnt make sense to them, they oppose straight away without perceiving the whole information first. I like to point out that I am fine with people that oppose the religion with full knowledge of Christianity. I am not against this.

This is the Christian reality: If you dont believe in Jesus, you dont get accepted to heaven. Most Christians believe in this as well so we believe in the same line. Pascal's Wager or not, as most Christians know this, they keep to this and this is why Christians go on Missions to spread the word about Jesus, that people can be saved by the Saviour. I know this line here is causing people troblem or disagreement, if you need further explanation, please read my previous posts in page1~2, I do not intend to repeat myself.

Why do you think the Words of the bible is meaningless? Please elaborate, I would like to hear your views.

The analogy you have called, is a fine example that is answered by my previous post in page one, I will quote it for you.

Yes, I always thought it was "unfair" for thoes evil doers that do believe in Jesus in the final hours that can go to heaven while the good doers that do not believe in Jesus go to hell. However in God's terms, accepting your one and true God as Jesus outweighs whatever you do in Earth. I am not a pastor, and I am not an experienced preacher or any kind, therefore I cannot be certain on how God weighs our values in order to go to heaven. However I am sure that you must accept Jesus in order to go to heaven because that is the most important thing in ourlives. Think about it this way, if you do not hand in a research paper for school in the due date but have constructed the most ingenious paper that could earn you a place in Harvard, you dont get a chance to get in because you havent done the most vital thing. Hand in the paper by the due date.

[Pendragon]

I have been monitoring this thread with some interest, and I note that many feel that they are too good to go to hell, as they are not murderes or anything. So what are you? Perfect? I think not.

You see. there are more things mentioned for going to hell than murder. Even lying in the last chapter of revelations. Let us look at your life, shall we?

Don't even try to convince me you never told a lie or even that you didn't today. A lie is any thing that obscures the truth. So that makes you a liar, doesn't it?

Did you ever take what wasn't yours? That is stealing. Let me guess, it went something like this: You found something and felt "finders keepers", hum? Or perhaps they gave you the wrong amount at the store or in the bank. You kept it, rationalizing "their loss". Un huh. If it had been your loss you wouild have marched right back in. So you are a theif.

Jesus taught that to look with lustful eyes was adultery. I am human enough to know that has happened. So now you are an adulterer as well as a theif and liar.

Don't covet says the commandment, but you say "Must be nice!" Coveter!

Should I go on? We need God, He doesn't need us. We need the help He provides to live any kind of "good life." Maybe no one ever pointed out this way to you before. Now, someone has.

God Bless

Pen

[Son of Tiamat]

Your assumption is proved wrong, there are books that provides as fact that Jesus did live. Google and you get some.
Nope. No possible way. He suicided. No matter how he can ask for forgiveness, as he killed himself, there is no way he can enter the Kingdom of God.
Kingdom of God holds perfection, and it always will.

hi im new to the forums, but i was just wondering if you were to kill yourself to save others do you not become a martyr. but from what i know if you kill yourself you automatically go to hell in the christian belief

[The Atheist]

... you may consider this garbage for the reason I have not met dolphins, and if you do that is valid although I hope you aren't cruel about it; but I would guess that it is more than just sharing a common enemy.

First off, I'd never give you a hard time; while we disagree on many things, your views are honest & heartfelt, and I have no trouble with people holding views which are different or opposite from mine.

I hope you get to play with some dolphins some day, because I'd guarantee that it would confirm for you that they are cognitively smart.

I just wish we could figure out how to communicate with them. And you're right about mammals - most of them are indeed social animals.

The Atheist, sorry for going back and forth on topics and I hope I didn't write too long of posts on your thread.

Hm, I am afraid or I hope I do not come off as wishing only to talk about myself, LoL!

Just on the border of long enough



And no, your posts don't come over as self-centred in any way. Like most people with zen-like persuasions, I find your attitude commendable and I've said on many occasions that the world would be a much better place if everyone were Buddhist. I believe that's true, because I admire the non-violent, conciliatory inclusiveness of Buddhism.

I just could never get by without steak.

Are dolphins altruistic then? Hasn't it been argued that there is no such thing as altruism? I am not a very deep thinker. In fact I posted an article on another website today and was told I am incredibly naive...

Wasn't me was it?



I said that to a couple of people yesterday.

Quite seriously, the whole theism/atheism debate is one where a little naivete is a good thing. Every single person on the planet has their own doctrine and every one of them is based on personal experience, so why should you take notice of anyone else's doctrine.

One of the smartest blokes ever, Bertrand Russell, said we should question all philosophies, even our own. Well, if you're naive, you sure haven't been tainted by someone else's doctrine, and that's got to be good.

Are dolphins atruistic? We can't say for certain, but based upon quite extensive evidence from studies in the wild, it seems that they are. Altruism exists alright - the disagreement is about why it exists. I say evolution, theists say god...

I suppose there are no dolphins in hell?

Depends who you talk to. Some sects say there will be animals in heaven, and in the bible, Jesus himself says that not a sparrow farts without his old man knowing about it.

(Or words to that effect )

The question I have to ask is why are people here frustrated as they hear the true aspects and rule Christian have about afterlife?

They aren't frustrated by that alone. You have - as I showed - repeated the same line about non-believers going to hell several times. That's what gets people upset. I accept that you're just speaking your mind, but is anything served by repeating it?

When it is repeated several times, it can look insulting.

It doesn't bother me; I've had my spot as Satan's right hand man picked out for years. That's why I'm The Atheist and not some other kind of atheist.

I thought people were more accepting to hear some values that seems unnatural for them, I thought people were able to turn a blind eye at these aspects. Clearly they arent.

Well. some can and some can't. I think you should at least try to see how someone repeating that they will be tortured eternally for not believing in your god can be hurtful, though. What you're doing is describing a religion which lives on fear - fear of being sent to hell if we don't act the prescribed way.

Thank you for suggesting that I should think for myself than regurgitating what the pastor said. But as a Christian, what else should I think if the values of Christianity is identical to my thoughts?

You talk about the values of christianity as being identical to your thoughts, but there is no agreed "values of christianity". Heaven is certainly about 100% belief among christians, but hell is viewed very differently by sects, so you can't say that your views agree with wider christianity. I'm not saying either one is better than another, just different, but if your personal view matches your church's view, then that's good.

It is true that God will punish the ones that insult Him and that He doesnt need His followers to stand up for him, however as His follower, I want the prevention of such punishment to other people.

That's an admirable attitude, but you need to understand that to non-theists, your view of your god, heaven and hell is the least attractive version of christianity. A god who punishes people eternally - for whatever reason - isn't all that appealing.

I've been talking to atheists for decades and I'm 100% certain that today's militant atheism was spawned by yesterday's rise of fundamental christianity.

I have said this before, I think the disagreement is occuring because of lack of understandings of the Christian rule. Something doesnt make sense to them, they oppose straight away without perceiving the whole information first. I like to point out that I am fine with people that oppose the religion with full knowledge of Christianity. I am not against this.

I'm interested to know what constitutes "full christian knowledge" and why that's important, because so far, the only reason you've advanced is that god says so, so it must be true. Given that no evidence exists other than what the bible says, regarding hell, there's little else to know. Plus, I must reiterate that the bible is read very differently between differing sects.

Based on that, and allowing that you're not even the millionth person to repeat god's rules in that way, it's actually quite easy to understand why people dismiss it without going any further.

Why do you think the Words of the bible is meaningless? Please elaborate, I would like to hear your views.

I'm not going to get too involved in this because it calls for a history of religion lesson. Suffice to say that there isn't anything in the christian religion which hasn't been borrowed from elsewhere - virgin birth, resurrection, miraculous happenings, god-on-earth.... all of them have earlier origins. To me, and many atheists, the bible is a collection of just-so stories of little or no value.

Once we get through that, I'd have to list the inconsistencies and oturight contradictions of the bible, of which there are hundreds. Do you eat shellfish or pork? Do men in your church shave their beards? These things are expressly prohibited in the bible, and in the very same chapters I've heard used in sermons against homosexuality at fundamental churches. And that's just the tip of the iceberg... the she-bears, the iron chariots... there are just so many that I find it impossible to accept that anyone can interpret it consistently.

It is a mockery to then insist that the book is infallibly right.

The analogy you have called, is a fine example that is answered by my previous post in page one, I will quote it for you.

Not what I meant, I'd seen that post, but no problem.

[Maletbon]

....calling someone's views "Bizarre and hateful" at least in this case -- is FLATOUT personal aggression, in this case as far as I can tell completely a wrong judgement; and it is nearing demonization....[/I]

Well, I was done, but have to respond to this, since telling the truth is not personal aggression. Telling people that if they don't agree with you they will be tortured by their creator is personal aggression. Unlike those types of believers, I don't believe in torment as a good attribute of The Divine, even for people who disagree with me. Not sure I understand the free pass people who believe things apparently have earned. Since someone believes something, if you use strong words to tell them the truth, that's aggression. I don't get that.

I defy anyone to find any concept ever created by the mind of man that is more bizarre than the idea the All-Powerful Lord of the Universe burns his children in fire for ALL ETERNITY. You can't do it. George Bush is really an alien? Nope. Up is green? Nope. North is south? Nope. It's impossible. That belief is the most bizarre thing on the planet, flat out. Please tell me something more bizarre than that, if you can.

And hateful. Hateful? Ha, you thought it was hateful that I called their belief hateful? You do know that I'm fighting infinity here, and all I have is words. So to you saying "hateful" is more hate-filled than thinking everyone who doesn't like your favorite scriptures will be tormented by his creator ETERNALLY? That is the definition of hate.

Nothing has ever been invented by the mind of man more painful that the punishment that is dealt out to disbelievers in Christianity. It is impossible to create anything more painful than Hell. Try it. You can't. Fundie Christians have cornered the market on pain and saved it for people who disagree with them. How could I be truthful and say that that was anything other than hateful? It's inhuman in its callousness, and frankly despicable.

But it's okay, since it's a belief, and has been around a long time. Hate and Pain is really God's Love.

When people worship a punishing God, they become surrogate punishers. Sure worked for Inquisitors and Crusaders. We're just doing God's work. Punishing.

How is that not hateful and bizarre?

No need to respond, since this is the last time I come to this page. I have better things to do than get all riled up about book-worshipers. And I know if I even look in here again once, I am doomed to whining for all eternity.

Nikolai, I know you just want me to be nice to people, and believe it or not, I usually am, since unlike fundamentalists of any religion, not just Christianity, I think people are good and don't deserve to be punished, especially not forever, which is so utterly ridiculous and silly that I'm crazy to even argue against it. Thank you for not believing in Hell.

[NikolaiI]

Well, I was done, but have to respond to this, since telling the truth is not personal aggression. Telling people that if they don't agree with you they will be tortured by their creator is personal aggression. Unlike those types of believers, I don't believe in torment as a good attribute of The Divine, even for people who disagree with me. Not sure I understand the free pass people who believe things apparently have earned. Since someone believes something, if you use strong words to tell them the truth, that's aggression. I don't get that.

I defy anyone to find any concept ever created by the mind of man that is more bizarre than the idea the All-Powerful Lord of the Universe burns his children in fire for ALL ETERNITY. You can't do it. George Bush is really an alien? Nope. Up is green? Nope. North is south? Nope. It's impossible. That belief is the most bizarre thing on the planet, flat out. Please tell me something more bizarre than that, if you can.

And hateful. Hateful? Ha, you thought it was hateful that I called their belief hateful? You do know that I'm fighting infinity here, and all I have is words. So to you saying "hateful" is more hate-filled than thinking everyone who doesn't like your favorite scriptures will be tormented by his creator ETERNALLY? That is the definition of hate.

Nothing has ever been invented by the mind of man more painful that the punishment that is dealt out to disbelievers in Christianity. It is impossible to create anything more painful than Hell. Try it. You can't. Fundie Christians have cornered the market on pain and saved it for people who disagree with them. How could I be truthful and say that that was anything other than hateful? It's inhuman in its callousness, and frankly despicable.

But it's okay, since it's a belief, and has been around a long time. Hate and Pain is really God's Love.

When people worship a punishing God, they become surrogate punishers. Sure worked for Inquisitors and Crusaders. We're just doing God's work. Punishing.

How is that not hateful and bizarre?

No need to respond, since this is the last time I come to this page. I have better things to do than get all riled up about book-worshipers. And I know if I even look in here again once, I am doomed to whining for all eternity.

Nikolai, I know you just want me to be nice to people, and believe it or not, I usually am, since unlike fundamentalists of any religion, not just Christianity, I think people are good and don't deserve to be punished, especially not forever, which is so utterly ridiculous and silly that I'm crazy to even argue against it. Thank you for not believing in Hell.

The only thing I can think of is that since the subject matter of the forum thread, it is entirely valid to state a religious view on it. The Atheist is obvioulsy a good person, and he did not create this thread solely or at all to create bad feeling. Therefore there is not a good reason why we cannot have all views expressed - those that say that they believe in Christ but not hell, as well as those that believe Christ is saving us from damnation. I think you are going much to far in saying that someone is hateful for having this view. It is true crimes have been done in the name of every religion, and also God. But I have read some of Skasian's posts and to me she is intelligent, kind, and her posts are valuable and insightful. I disagree with her on points such as hell, and vegetarianism, but our exchanges have been pleasant and respectful. But even if this were not the case, it is not the right tactic or strategy to write the way you did.

Even if the concept of hell is something that is disturbing to you, there is no reason to blow skasian's posts out of porportion. As I quoted on another post, "if you view the world as hostile you create it that way," the same is true for people. If you treat someone as hostile, as mean or as stupid, then you will gradually have that effect on them - this is much more noticable in children, especially the differenc has been discovered between much love and positive encouragement (read: belief and faith in the child) - in other words, treat them with the implicit understanding that they are a valuable human being who is capable, competent and intelligent - then they will develop these qualities with confidence. Treat them with neglect and they will not reach their potential. So if you act like it is hopeless for someone - your position is not so insightful, it is not so great, and you are only giving a negatve assertion, suggestion, and opinion, which immediately creates bad feeling and comes back to you. Lastly if the idea of hell bothers you so much, then do not come here, but don't call people extremist and worse. Please and thank you.

[Delta40]

Wow! I want to swim with the dolphins atm. Perhaps they know......the altruistic ones that is.

[NikolaiI]

Hm I wanted to say, I don't really like to have, figuratively, my mouth full of all I've been saying lately. I don't judge because I don't know you. But I just wanted to point out that it's probably wrong to judge another, because you don't know them. And since it was getting so touchy and defensive, that is why I wrote so much... although I probably did write too much... anyway I will get off it for a while, since it wound down anyway.

[Zee.]

Saying a system as holy as religion and remarking it is flawed is insult. I tolded you before that it is the same as remarking God is flawed. Do you understand this?

You believe that religion is not flawed?

okay i can't be bothered wasting any more time talking to delusionals.


You follow blindly, Skasian..



That'll be the last post from me. This thread gives me a headache.

[NikolaiI]

Hm I wanted to say, I don't really like to have, figuratively, my mouth full of all I've been saying lately. I don't judge because I don't know you. But I just wanted to point out that it's probably wrong to judge another, because you don't know them. And since it was getting so touchy and defensive, that is why I wrote so much... although I probably did write too much... anyway I will get off it for a while, since it wound down anyway.

I really enjoyed reading that, and realize i probably did come off a little strong with many of the things i said. I realize that her beliefs are her own, even though they may seem very strange to me. I have never been able to fully accept certain things about Christianity - I don't think I ever will. But, that aside, I don't want to come off as someone who sounds very ignorant - because i'm not, far from it. Sometimes i can't express myself quite as clearly as id like to when it comes to matters like these - particulary in matters close to my heart.
What i loved about buddhism was the ability to be anything you wanted to be - yet still allow buddhist faith in your life. You could be a christian, and yet be a buddhist in the same light. But..that's an entirely different subject..

Thanks for your comment - much appreciated.

Thank you Limajean, I appreciate it, but I probably wrote too much.

Regardless I am much more comfortable studying and discussing things other than that..... heh. But thank you, and I am glad you are on the forum and giving your input. Communication I know can be difficult, I've been visiting this forum for over a year and also writing different things... both happiness and sadness or any kind of thought or emotion can be difficult to express at times. One reason for this is that we are always forgetting those moments when we have some special thought or realization.

[NikolaiI]

Okay, so much for that. Well I don't feel so bad about writing so much about it since it failed (ha, is that ironic?) to have any effect. Skasian is not delusional, limajean. Nor are you not able to debate (I think I saw someone say that..?). This is an instance where I am going to walk away not taking anyone very seriously.

*takes delta's cue and leaves quietly*

[Zee.]

Well I guess that's a matter of opinion. But to me, anyone who believes our creator will burn us all in hell because we're not bending at the knees is slightly delusional, not as a person, but in their beliefs. I'm sick of the politically correct nonsense we have to stick to these days. No one can say what they really feel or what everyone is thinking because it's not "right" to do so. Things would be solved a lot quicker if people didn't tip toe. I don't tip toe. It may offend you but atleast i play it straight, i see no point in adding a silver lining.

Damn - okay that there, really is my last post..

[Delta40]

I think as an ongoing interlocutor, the purpose of discussion is the exchange of viewpoints and ideas, rather than to convince anyone. Don't underestimate your ability to have an effect, though. Sometimes people get insight just from the experience of being on this thread.