"Christians, as this thread is dedicated to the Christians belief in Hell, believe that Jesus is the only way for salvation."
It is probably safe to say that all Christians accept the statement "Jesus is the only means of salvation."
Far fewer would accept the very different statement, "a belief in Jesus is the only means of salvation."
Voices mysterious far and near,
Sound of the wind and sound of the sea,
Are calling and whispering in my ear,
Whifflingpin! Why stayest thou here?
Let me remind you that Christians are still human, and we make the same mistakes as another person, but we put an effort to limitate it with the help of God.Originally Posted by blazeofglory
I am not Catholic, and although that I believe that popes are important part of Christianity, I only look up towards God.
Of course Jesus is not Christian, he is not a little of himself is he? He is the Son of God, a Healer, a Savour.
Hitler regarded himself as a diehard Christian and there are still too many who think they are Christians. Once we do not divide ourselves between Christians and Jews, the same children we can come closer to truth.
“Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””
“If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.
It would depend on the non believer on whether they would also believe that "Jesus is the only means of salvation." This is because the non believer will at least know that in every religion, there is a specific belief that only their god will provode salvation for them. The only difference for the non believer to see is the fact that they do not know which is the "true" god for them.
Hitler was simply a madman, and he missed out the point that violence is never the answer in Christianity. If he missed out one of the most important laws God has given us, he was obviously not a "diehard" Christian.
Blaze, you gave me something to think about, Christian and Jews. The difference between them is that Jews do not believe in Jesus and they follow the strict rules that God had appointed in the Old Testiments. As they do not believe in Jesus but believe in the Holy Father, it gave me a something to think about whether they are allowed to enter Heaven or not.
I remember hearing... and I can't state this with full conviction, but I heard that one of the verses was mistranslated slightly... it had to do with faith in Jesus and so people though you had to have faith in Jesus, but the better translation was "Faith of Jesus" so you had to have the faith of Jesus, if that makes any sense or difference.
Last edited by NikolaiI; 12-30-2008 at 11:35 AM.
Yes. That's exactly what I mean.
Thanks for letting us in on your theology, but I would just note that there are no historical accounts of Jesus outside of the bible, so please don't try to intimate that there are.
The bible might make him out to have been perfect, etc., but no other books even suggest he lived, let alone died on the cross.
Surprisingly enough, that's not right. Anglican/Episcopalian beliefs don't work like that for starters.
Yet, if he recanted and sought forgiveness in those last hours in his bunker, embracing Jesus as lord and asking for forgiveness, he'll be in heaven. Seeing that he was Roman Catholic, it's quite possible he sought salvation this way.
Don't you find that a little less than "perfection"?
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
Your assumption is proved wrong, there are books that provides as fact that Jesus did live. Google and you get some.Yes. That's exactly what I mean.
Thanks for letting us in on your theology, but I would just note that there are no historical accounts of Jesus outside of the bible, so please don't try to intimate that there are.
The bible might make him out to have been perfect, etc., but no other books even suggest he lived, let alone died on the cross.
Surprisingly enough, that's not right. Anglican/Episcopalian beliefs don't work like that for starters.
Yet, if he recanted and sought forgiveness in those last hours in his bunker, embracing Jesus as lord and asking for forgiveness, he'll be in heaven. Seeing that he was Roman Catholic, it's quite possible he sought salvation this way.
Don't you find that a little less than "perfection"?
Nope. No possible way. He suicided. No matter how he can ask for forgiveness, as he killed himself, there is no way he can enter the Kingdom of God.
Kingdom of God holds perfection, and it always will.
lol I knew i shouldn't be in this thread! A little six year old who is sitting next to me right now, said there is not enough books in the world to answer this question! I'm going with this because I find subjective knowledge and objective knowledge don't meet. Nobody on this thread has objective knowledge really - I mean you guys haven't conducted any research on people that have gone to hell have you? It really is subjective then and even if you combine it with what is written in texts - I don't consider this to be in anyway objective, you still cannot have knowledge that is significant in one way and explanatory in another. It's rather like, pick a colour which you prefer and go with that.
I think that the topic has gotten a little off topic, so i'll go back to answering the actual question and inquiries that were originally brought up.
You have some very good questions. I had some of the same questions myself,
but with a little studying of the Bible, here's what answers I got for
your questions:
1) What is hell?
John Piper said:"The historic biblical view of hell is that it is "endless suffering." Both words are biblical and important: "endless"—hell is forever and never has an end—and "suffering"—in this endless condition people are in conscious torment."
So to use the definitions provided, hell is an eternal destination of endless conscious torment
The Bible addresses hell a lot, and so does Jesus. Here are some references:
Matthew 8:12
"....In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Romans 2:8
but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury
Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment"
Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night"
these are all descriptions of hell, and what will happen/ is happening there. a place of unquenchable fire, wrath and fury, eternal punishment, weeping, gnashing of teeth, and complete torment. that is what hell is.
another way to put it: hell is the abode of those who are permanently separated from God. they create it and maintain it. hell is not a work of God, but the absence of God.
2) why would a loving God create such a place?
RC Sproul says: "We need to realize that those who are in hell desire nothing more than the absence of God. They didn't want to be in God's presence during their earthly lives, and they certainly don't want Him near when they're in hell."
As you said earlier, compassionate, loving and caring are words that describe him and rightfully so. He is all those things plus many more. But God is also a God a justice. Just as a mu rder er gets sentenced for his actions, we are sentenced for a life time of actions.
Jesus actually paid the ultimate price for all our actions. He died on the cross to save us from our sins. And there are some people who will accept that truth, and there are others who will deny it.
For example, if a man says that gravity does not exist, he is definitely going to pay the price when he tries to prove he's right and jumps off a 100 story building. He denied this scientific truth. In the same way, many people will deny the spiritual truth of God, and pay the price for it in the end. The man who jumped off the building fell to his de ath , and we will always fall a continuous dea th if we do not accept God before we go to hell.
2 Timothy 2:12 says, " ......if we deny him, he also will deny us:"
3) why was hell created at all?
Hell was actually created for the devil and his angels, as i believe i quoted earlier, but i'll quote it again.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Satan says, "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' the "Most High" talked about here is God, and there is no one who can be above God. We can't even be equal like him! God is above all things. Isaiah 48:11, God himself says, "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another." So hell was made for Satan to be his own master and his own god and have his own spiritual domain. But as James 1:15 clearly states, "Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth de ath ." Satan died spiritually when he wanted to be like God. And he could not be like God, and still can not be like God. So hell was made for Satan to reign, a continuous struggle against God, but always accepting God's judgment. He is in endless turmoil because he can not be like God, and his rage fills the earth to this day.
People who do not follow God have one alternative: to follow Satan. And Satan lives in hell, along with his demons and devils. So when one dies, they either accepted God and went to heaven to worship him, or go to Satan's domain and suffer along with their master.
4) Is there no hope then for entering God's kingdom? Is every sin, major or minor, bad enough to send you to hell?
yes, every sin is condemnable; and yes there is hope. Whether you sin once in your life, or millions of times in your life, one sin is enough to condemn you to hell, because you have gone against God. There is no difference between a mur der er and a liar in the end. They have both sinned, and they both are deserving of dea th (see James 1:15 again). But there is a way to escape this eternal destination of wrath, fury, gnashing of teeth, and weeping. This is where God's amazing love for us comes in. He knows we are not righteous. He knows we sin. And he gave us a way out of it. Romans 5:8 says, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Earlier, in Romans 4:25, Paul also states, " He [Jesus] was delivered over to for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." Later on, in chapter 5 verse 19, "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." We are made righteous through Jesus dying on the cross for us, all sinners, and all people. Proverbs 11:4, "Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from de ath ." We are then delivered from dea th through righteousness, which was given to us when Jesus died. All we need to do is accept it, and truly commit our lives to believing it. A murd er er can get saved, because through Mark 3:28, we are reassured that " all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter...."
So there is hope for getting out of this horrible place, but the only hope is through God.
Last edited by Rush_of_Blood; 12-31-2008 at 04:18 AM.
Ouch. So basically Christians are okay with joining a group that thinks everybody who disagrees with them is getting tortured by their creator for eternity? Strikes me as tribalism. Us good them bad.
If Christianity is true, that means God is insane, because only an insane father would torture his kids for all eternity just because they didn't believe some book a bossy person told them was from Him.
If by chance the millenium comes and everyone on the planet becomes a Christian all full of love, and we learn space travel and colonize the galaxy and every sentient being in the galaxy becomes a loving Christian and they go out to the entire universe and all beings thoughout the cosmos become Christians and love one another generation after generation for billions of years, until the universe becomes unliveable, all that Christian Love from untold trillions of billions for billions of years is as nothing compared to the agony of a single soul tormented in hell eternally, in love-hours, or pain-hours, take your pick.
That's Christian love. All because that guy didn't like their book.
Last edited by Maletbon; 12-31-2008 at 05:45 AM.
Thank you rush of blood for your post containing valuable Words of God and your views in Christianity.
The bible is indeed contains the Word of God and the truth He brings to our world. But lets keep in mind that the bible is not the only way we can interact and know more about God.
Please read my previous posts discussing about how God is pure and is not responsible for some of the people suffering in hell. God has layed out the most obvious answer to go the heaven right in front of our noses. It is our incredulousness and relunctance that is responsible for not being able to enter his Kingdom.
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