Wuthering Heights and The Great Gatsby

[Jozanny]

Will we never cease with the Fitzgerald versus Hemingway boxing match? If forced at knife point, I'd say the former had a more sophisticated take on the American pulse, but both men filled a niche in American Letters, and both men were influences on later authors. Dubus, whom I actually admire, was the modern Hemingway until his heart copped out on his amputated leg, mellowing Hemingway's melodrama, but still employing it with great effect on a contemporary reader. It has been so long since I've read WH and GG that I've stayed rather mum on the comparison, but Brian, I remember enough of Wuthering Heights morbidity that I think your premise is somewhat off. Ethan Frome seems more similar to the Gothic tale, though I think both Bronte sisters could have benefited in their outlook from American movement feminism, as they both slice their Gothic a tad thick.

[downing]

It seems that this discussion turned into something different from what it was intended to be. I'll go back to the first post of the thread and I confess that I was surprised in a good way when I saw that somebody had the same idea I had some months ago..the comparison between WH and The Great Gatsby. I intended to write a comparison between GG,WH,Gone with the Wind and Washington Square, having the question ''Is love eternal or not?'' as a main interest. Because of short deadlines, I had to write just about Gone with the Wind and The Great Gatsby, but I had made a brief plan which included WH as well.
In response to the question - was F.S Fitzgerald inspired by Emily Bronte, I would answer - definitely YES! I think that there is no author (at least respectable) who didn't read WH. I do not know whether he consciously wrote GG while thinking of Bronte's novel, but books always leave a trace in our brain. I don't think it is really relevant if Fitzgerald used WH as a source. All I know is that I had jotted down some ideas and this storyline was the main thing(poor boy,rich girl,departure,coming back rich,finding the girl married,having an affair - by the way, does Catherine have an affair with Heathcliff when he comes back?; it's been some time since I read it and I seem to have forgotten it). Anyways, you simply can't say that there are not some major similarities between the books.

[JBI]

I doubt Fitzgerald had read the Bronte's work. Their reputation existed, but wasn't like it is now, and classics weren't, we must remember, as readily available. Had he heard of the book? maybe, but had he read it? I highly doubt it.

[Emil Miller]

I doubt Fitzgerald had read the Bronte's work. Their reputation existed, but wasn't like it is now, and classics weren't, we must remember, as readily available. Had he heard of the book? maybe, but had he read it? I highly doubt it.

I am currently reading This Side of Paradise and it is clear from the number of English authors mentioned in the book that Fitzgerald had a great interest in English writing. On that basis, I would think it highly likely that he knew of the story of Wuthering Heights even if he hadn't read the novel.

[JBI]

Who is to say - you forget the date of composition - to what esteem were the Brontes in at that time? I have no idea, I am not a victorian specialist. To what esteem were Victorian novels held at that time is another question. I just doubt he read it, being that it seems unlikely. It didn't have the reputation abroad it has now then, that is for sure, and I am not even sure it had canonical status of any sort in America at that point. We must remember, it was initially highly criticized.

[Emil Miller]

Who is to say - you forget the date of composition - to what esteem were the Brontes in at that time? I have no idea, I am not a victorian specialist. To what esteem were Victorian novels held at that time is another question. I just doubt he read it, being that it seems unlikely. It didn't have the reputation abroad it has now then, that is for sure, and I am not even sure it had canonical status of any sort in America at that point. We must remember, it was initially highly criticized.

Wuthering Heights was published in 1847 whereas This Side of Paradise came out in 1920, so obviously, whatever the initial crticism of the Bronte novel, by the time that Fitzgerald was writing his book in 1919, Wuthering Heights had established itself as a widely-read masterpiece of English fiction. For someone like Fitzgerald, who mentions a whole host of 19th century English writers, it seem unthinkable that he wouldn't have heard of it.

[mayneverhave]

Speaking of the learning and reading habits of modernist writers:

How well read was Hemingway? I've written a couple papers (just this semester) on Hemingway in relation to the other 1920's writers (specifically Fitzgerald and Eliot).

Hemingway was good friends with Pound, but as I recall, not very fond of Pound's poetry. He remarked: "erudition shouldn't show". I wonder: could Hemingway have written eruditely even if he wanted to?

Hemingway also preferred Dubliners to Ulysses, though he helped smuggle the latter into the States. It's not clear whether he finished Ulysses or not (but who can blame him!)

Hemingway's relationship with Fitzgerald is pretty documented. Hemingway thought Gatsby fantastic, but the two seemed to go back and forth (apparently Zelda hated Hemingway).

As for Eliot. Hemingway called out Eliot on multiple occasions, disliked his poetry, but Eliot apparently never fired back - and actually praised Hemingway's writing. Perhaps Eliot was indifferent - his reputation was fine enough to withstand Hemingway's attacks.

Aside from the titles of his novels, and an allusion to Marvell in A Farewell to Arms, Hemingway avoided allusions.

[Virgil]

Wuthering Heights was published in 1847 whereas This Side of Paradise came out in 1920, so obviously, whatever the initial crticism of the Bronte novel, by the time that Fitzgerald was writing his book in 1919, Wuthering Heights had established itself as a widely-read masterpiece of English fiction. For someone like Fitzgerald, who mentions a whole host of 19th century English writers, it seem unthinkable that he wouldn't have heard of it.

I've been thinking on this. Fitzgerald was very well aware of the history of the novel. Wuthering Heights was made into a major film in 1939, so I have to believe it was well established as a classic by 1919, though I have no proof. I do not think it influenced Fitzgerald but i have to believe he read it.

The major infuences to Fitzgerald were John Keats, Henry James, and most importanttly Joseph Conrad. If you want to see parallels, compare The Great Gatsby with Conrad's Lord Jim.

[Virgil]

Speaking of the learning and reading habits of modernist writers:

How well read was Hemingway? I've written a couple papers (just this semester) on Hemingway in relation to the other 1920's writers (specifically Fitzgerald and Eliot).

Hemingway was good friends with Pound, but as I recall, not very fond of Pound's poetry. He remarked: "erudition shouldn't show". I wonder: could Hemingway have written eruditely even if he wanted to?

Hemingway also preferred Dubliners to Ulysses, though he helped smuggle the latter into the States. It's not clear whether he finished Ulysses or not (but who can blame him!)

Hemingway's relationship with Fitzgerald is pretty documented. Hemingway thought Gatsby fantastic, but the two seemed to go back and forth (apparently Zelda hated Hemingway).

As for Eliot. Hemingway called out Eliot on multiple occasions, disliked his poetry, but Eliot apparently never fired back - and actually praised Hemingway's writing. Perhaps Eliot was indifferent - his reputation was fine enough to withstand Hemingway's attacks.

Hemingway was very well read on the history of the novel, especially the American novel, but all novels. My impressions of Hemingway would agree with everything you state above, except perhaps your Eliot comment. I don't know what he thought of Eliot's poetry, but he certainly used Eliot's ideas in many places.

Aside from the titles of his novels, and an allusion to Marvell in A Farewell to Arms, Hemingway avoided allusions.

That I'm afraid I would disagree with. Hemingway used many allusions. The Sun Also Rises is an allusion to Ecclesiastes, but even more importantly the whole novel is one big allusion to Eliot's The Waste Land.

[Emil Miller]

I've been thinking on this. Fitzgerald was very well aware of the history of the novel. Wuthering Heights was made into a major film in 1939, so I have to believe it was well established as a classic by 1919, though I have no proof. I do not think it influenced Fitzgerald but i have to believe he read it.

The major infuences to Fitzgerald were John Keats, Henry James, and most importanttly Joseph Conrad. If you want to see parallels, compare The Great Gatsby with Conrad's Lord Jim.

There was a silent film version of 'Heights' made in 1920 so, yes, it had established itself as a classic by the time Fitzgerald was writing. I don't say for certain that it influenced Fitzgerald, my original thread asked whether it did.There is no way of establishing it one way or the other, but it has certainly given rise to some interesting posts.

[mayneverhave]

I don't know what he thought of Eliot's poetry, but he certainly used Eliot's ideas in many places.

That I'm afraid I would disagree with. Hemingway used many allusions. The Sun Also Rises is an allusion to Ecclesiastes, but even more importantly the whole novel is one big allusion to Eliot's The Waste Land.

Of course. The other thing I noticed is, as you pointed out, Hemingway's immense debt to The Waste Land.

Besides The Sun Also Rises being like a watered down Waste Land, A Farewell to Arms directly takes Eliot's use of the Marvell poem, To His Coy Mistress - in relation to car horns.

Hemingway, however, never acknowledge his debt to Eliot. Anxiety of influence maybe?

[kelby_lake]

The Diamond as Big as the Ritz is obvious junk, but what about Babylon Revisited? I rather liked that one. And then you have his stupendous series of essays in The Crack-Up.

The Diamond as Big as the Ritz was great! I could do with that sort of money.
I also like Bernice Bobs Her Hair...and An Alcoholic Case. There are plenty of good ones.

I think The Last Tycoon could have been brilliant. It's gatsby-esque character-wise (Cecilia is like Nick, Stahr is like Gatsby), but it has a more exciting plot and it's about Hollywood What a waste the 1976 film of it was- why did they not use the ending written in the notes?

Anyway, most female novelists are ignored. Ask anyone to name you a classic female author and they'll say Austen, and the Brontes, but even then people get confused as to who wrote what. Us poor women do not get proper recognition!

[Emil Miller]

The Diamond as Big as the Ritz was great! I could do with that sort of money.
I also like Bernice Bobs Her Hair...and An Alcoholic Case. There are plenty of good ones.

I think The Last Tycoon could have been brilliant. It's gatsby-esque character-wise (Cecilia is like Nick, Stahr is like Gatsby), but it has a more exciting plot and it's about Hollywood What a waste the 1976 film of it was- why did they not use the ending written in the notes?

Anyway, most female novelists are ignored. Ask anyone to name you a classic female author and they'll say Austen, and the Brontes, but even then people get confused as to who wrote what. Us poor women do not get proper recognition!

The failure of the Gatsby film versions would indicate that Fitzgerald doesn't transfer very well to the screen. It is sometime since I read The Last Tycoon, but from my recollection of the book it seemed to me that Fitzgerald was struggling and the story appeared somewhat contrived; even though it is based on the life of Irving Thalberg the film producer.
I didn't watch the whole of the film version because it was a classic case of Hollywood extravagance signifying very little and seemed to mirror the emptiness of the plot. A case of art imitating art if you like.
It is ironic that Fitzgerald was writing from his own perspective as a scriptwriter for Hollywood but, because of his alcoholism, seemed unable to write what should have been the definitive authorial comment on tinsel town.

[JBI]

The Diamond as Big as the Ritz was great! I could do with that sort of money.
I also like Bernice Bobs Her Hair...and An Alcoholic Case. There are plenty of good ones.

I think The Last Tycoon could have been brilliant. It's gatsby-esque character-wise (Cecilia is like Nick, Stahr is like Gatsby), but it has a more exciting plot and it's about Hollywood What a waste the 1976 film of it was- why did they not use the ending written in the notes?

Anyway, most female novelists are ignored. Ask anyone to name you a classic female author and they'll say Austen, and the Brontes, but even then people get confused as to who wrote what. Us poor women do not get proper recognition!

Depends where - The Canadian prose tradition, for instance, is essentially built on the backs of female novelists, and female writers especially from minority groups.

The notion of a patriarchal literary canon doesn't really exist when talking about Canadian literature, as our first authors, Francis Brooke, Lucy Maud Montgomery, Susana Moodie, Katherine Parr Trail, and Vallancy Crawford were female, and essentially the founders of Canadian literature.


But in the context of England, to an extent you are right. From what I was taught, the Brontes themselves weren't even believed to be Girls on their initial publication, and the reviews tended to assume they were male, being the "seriousness" and "originality" of the books. I think, that given the gender of the author, it is quite possible that the book wasn't as central to the American well-read person's list than some of us here suggests. I stick by my original thoughts, and continue to doubt the familiarity Fitzgerald had with the text. I can't see any signs in Gatsby, or in his other works that I have read, of Bronte influence.

Either way though, I think the books are very different in terms of scope. In my opinion, I judge Wuthering Heights as a story transported out of the Byron vein, crossed with Gothic novel trends. The blend ends up being unique, as the awkward psychology of the Anti-hero meets the Gothic novel's romantic trends.

Gatsby on the other hand works more in an American setting. The plot, I would argue, is taken, in majority, from Fitzgerald's own biography, and the money is echoing Fitzgerald's obsession with the monetary status of people, also echoing his biography. Gatsby is, I would argue, an aspect of Fitzgerald himself. The success of Gatsby, and his lies, echoes Fitzgerald's own success, ironically achieved by telling lies for profit (the act of writing fiction).

We must also remember that Zelda Fitzgerald had just had an affair, right before the books writing? Is it too far to suggest that the affair made the book? In many senses, the book is biographical, except that it is fused with American mythologies as well, and the obsession with the American Dream, and of failure, two themes surrounding Fitzgerald and his contemporaries.

[kelby_lake]

The failure of the Gatsby film versions would indicate that Fitzgerald doesn't transfer very well to the screen. It is sometime since I read The Last Tycoon, but from my recollection of the book it seemed to me that Fitzgerald was struggling and the story appeared somewhat contrived; even though it is based on the life of Irving Thalberg the film producer.
I didn't watch the whole of the film version because it was a classic case of Hollywood extravagance signifying very little and seemed to mirror the emptiness of the plot. A case of art imitating art if you like.
It is ironic that Fitzgerald was writing from his own perspective as a scriptwriter for Hollywood but, because of his alcoholism, seemed unable to write what should have been the definitive authorial comment on tinsel town.

It's because his prose is so lyrical...I could do a good film version...it needs to be faster-paced.
I wasn't aware that Stahr was based on whoever Thalberg is, and I didn't see the contrivances, only the parallels it had with Gatsby.
Hollywood is empty showy nothingness as are a lot of Fitzgerald's characters, who are living in a dream world. Very few of his characters are practical and think in terms of realism- they live in deluded fairytales, which is why I think it appeals to people.