That's an open-minded view. I'm American AND a Socialist. Am I ignorant as well?
That's an open-minded view. I'm American AND a Socialist. Am I ignorant as well?
How many economics classes have you taken?Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Frankly, I am not sure what angst you are tempering here Virgil. I may have just said deconstructing the American Dream is de classe, but by the same token, that doesn't mean it hasn't been exclusionary. I experience bigotry on a daily basis, day in and day out, as a disabled American, and I don't always keep the anger that generates bottled in. With my intelligence I should have been a professor or a political appointee--instead I struggle to survive and keep my sanity in my own little microcosm. If you don't know what it is like to be shut out from matriculated success, I'd think twice before getting upset.I'm not even going to bother because I'm just going to get upset. I wonder if anyone here has even taken an economics class. I'm sure they haven't and frankly I don't feel like arguing with people who aren't even Americans about the American experience. I have no idea how a nonAmerican learns about America through literature. It's ludicrous. So I've been on forums talking to socialists who (a) think they know economics without taking an economics class and (b) think they know America from reading.I've been there, done that, and it leads to arguments. Screw it. They don't know what they're talking about.
May I have my saying as an outsider (and not even close to north hemisphere).
American Dream (or the democratic idealism, Emerson, Franklin, etc,etc,etc,etc) is admirable. The capacity of moving foward, supearation, socialization (not socialism) is amazing. Certainly is a key factor to build such strong nation. I may laugh the international views (the notion to put all rabitts in the same bags is too tempting for America, but that is not part of their dream, rather something inherited by english imperialism) and of course...
Have any of you guys be present in those arguments (mostly online) about communism. Someone will came and say "it was nice, good but only in theory". Everytime I see it I wonder :"Gosh, someone is telling me that an ideal is flawed while applied on reality.", so is democracy (the whole bit about equality, sure is manipulated, because equality of potential is different of equality of results) or capitalism. So, is America. The answer to the old world wasnt perfect, but well... it worked the best way possible for quite sometime. Perhaps it explains the american capacity to seek new tendencies and at sametime some need to return to europe. But , right now, pointing to a dream that was about "New", 200 years after, is just too easy. Of course it is dated.
Two or three, three if you count AP Government which covered economics.
Dated in the literary tradition of realism and modernism JCamilo, yes, I agree, and today it may even be in a bit of trouble, but the US seems to have the capacity for reinvention--and there are things that bind even a pomo like DeLillo to our heritage, which isn't that old, though technology may have speeded up how and why powers rise and fall.
And if you're still a socialist, then God bless you, you live in a utopian dream. No credible economist today believes in socialism.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
I also would add some criticism from the philosophical point of view (and those are already dated)and yes, capacity of reinvention exists and it is necessary, probally to create something anew and this happens. I am not apocalyptic in form.
Only if you are using socialism as synounimous to marxism. If you use socialism as opposite to liberalism (and not capitalism), then you have just a doctorine with heavy governamental intervention, control and participation on economy (and the actual crise we have is a crise of liberalism, so, in a few years, universities of the world will be popping with opposers to liberalism). Fact is, Brazil, China and a few raising economies are never very liberal, so I would not be so quick to dismiss economists that claim to be socialists.
Well I have taken economic classes, for one, and I don't feel anymore authority to speak on such subject other by somewhat ignorant matters of opinion. Also, I'm not sure why you are drilling this "economic class" rhetoric, as the fact that in your environment economic knowledge revolves around very capitalistic dogmas has a lot to do with a matter of national ideology. My point is that socialism is not necessarily an unworkable system as some make of it, it's practical existence failures have more to do with the political aspect than the economic one. One example I could take to illustrate my point is Cuba, while it is not wonderland, it fares better than many of it's neighbors and that, despite American embargo (which is the most ironic measure ever taken as it did nothing else than strengthen socialistic dogmas on the island, unlike say, China). Note that I am not socialist by any means, but my rejection of this system is based on philosophical basis more than economical ones but nor am I a "capitalist". Seeing such economic notions as a dichotomy is almost necessarily wrong. Both have shown their flaws and the healthiest economies have been the ones that could accept as just measure of both poles according to the current realities. And this means that the leading ideology of the USA of capitalism at all price, as a solution for everything is wrong, and has proved that it was wrong recently. Ironically the nation which was the most progressive, and therefore could the most live up to this notion of "American Dream" has become one of the most conservative, and instead of living to the principles of it's founders and it's successes (imagination, creativity, progressiveness), has tried to maintain these successes in a fixed state and this fixation is the death of "American Dreams", as such notion takes place in nation that are changing, that are growing, not those that take a fixed form.
But, in the end, the "American Dream" has really always been not much else than a popular slogan of nationalistic pride that has been applied to different shifting situations along the history of the country.
And now I feel like I've been rambling very much, and too lazy to reread and correct.
Without making an apology of socialism, we live in a capitalistic world, and economists are taught what current dogmas there is. Those same economists you talk of are partly responsible for a worldwide economic crisis, whose least affected parts were those with healthy measures of interventionism, and whose cure were interventionist measures. Soviet economists were pretty well driven on socialism too. But I'm not getting further into that, and besides, unless shown otherwise, you are just as ignorant as anyone on the subject of economics. Besides, I've seen American senators and bidding VPs (ahem) know less than me in economics... so where are is this all going? Nowhere, really. Economy is so complex in theory already, that to pretend one can know it's practical application well-enough is quixotic at best. How much time, mistakes, experiences, tries, etc. did it take us to come to a form that is yet so imperfect and messy of capitalism that one could claim to be able to plan anything about economy? It's a wild, wild jungle there, and he who can cut the branches better does not necessarily know the shortest way out.No credible economist today believes in socialism.
Last edited by Etienne; 12-06-2008 at 11:01 PM.
Et l'unique cordeau des trompettes marines
Apollinaire, Le chantre
You're 17 years old. When you grow up, son, and live in the real world, come back and talk.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Ahem, how many have you seen? I live here and I've only met one in person. How many times have you been here and seen one? And frankly what does that have to do with anything? I'm talking economics not politics.
This thread is degenerating. Let's get it back on subject. I have no desire to talk this issue. Let the economists of the world that advise all the politicians of every country work their course. None of your counties are socialist. Obviously there is a reason for that.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Brazil is socialist, have been in last 14 years. Two different presidents claimed to be socialists and never denied it. One from a former Social-Democratic party (altough called a betrayer for following a liberal agenda to sync wiht the world's economy) and the other from a former communist-marxism party that moved to the center when got the power.
Last edited by JCamilo; 12-06-2008 at 11:10 PM.
Can we return to the literary argument please? I have never taken economics, but even I know that there is no pure methodology for the distribution of resources. I believe in markets, but I also believe in regulatory safeguards, and a socialist safety net.
Virgil--socialism exists in the US (yes, take a few deep breaths); it is a lousy and punishing system, however. I have been in the trenches, and this is not the place to lock horns about it.
Which world? Keynes replaced Smith, and in the American view Freedman seems to have replaced Keynes. Who is to say that someone won't come along and replace Freedman in the American view?
Honestly, you use socialist as a derogatory term - I take it as a compliment. Capitalism has failed in the past, (and perhaps present, though I don't want to break board rules by going there), and undoubtedly if it exists much longer, will fail again.
There is an inherent sense of fear in, I would say, the States, and to a lesser extent parts of Canada, especially the West by my reckoning, to anything that is deemed to "left" as a sense of prolonged fear that the communists are still out there to get America. Socialism isn't an "evil force" but a system, just as capitalism is. One could argue the benefits, by looking at the growth of capitalist economies, whereas one could look at the opposite, and check into the living standards and standard of life in countries like Iceland, Norway Sweden, or France.
Most countries today seem to be pushing towards a centre between capitalism and socialism. It isn't such a black and white argument as you suggest. People may like to pay lower taxes, but people also like to not have to pay medical bills, or to rely on the goodwill of insurance companies.
Capitalism hasn't been without its critics - neither has socialism for that matter. The point is, the concept of capitalism good, socialism bad is rather close minded and silly.
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