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Thread: D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

  1. #2431
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Virgil, it is interesting how her mother refers to her as "My Dollie" and her father "My Princess." I had not even thought of a reference to the Ibsen play - "A Doll's House"...how do you see that connection exactly? Do you think Lawrence did think of that story when calling her Dollie? Also, what do you mean by the following statement? "Dollie and her father are definitely ethereal."

    Colin, the father, is described as "a fascinating spectre" and a "ghost," but is Dollie also described as being the same? I didn't notice that in my reading. It is a good observation that this aspect of the father would be the farthest from the blood consciousness reality or 'vitality', as you worded it. I didn't see Dollie as exactly like her father in his vague ways; described in the text as being "ghostly oblivious" or "absent" . I see 'The Princess' more so as a woman struggling against her own consciousness of blood vitality, but wanting it at some point, even though she rejects it at the same time within herself. This is jumping too far ahead, I know, but I think we will see that she is driven on by an unconscious desire to find that aspect of herself, and connect with the natural world and herself. In time, we will see the duality of this/her position, which is the core source of conflict in this story, I believe. It is the same sort of duality we always see in Lawrence's works and in Lawrence himself.

    In response to your last question, this may help. I just got a little insight while reading a passage from one of my references books about this story. The book is "The Minoan Distance, The Symbolism of Travel in D.H.Lawrence" by L.D Clark.

    Clark states:
    Dollie Urquhart, a "princess" because her eccentric father always calls her that, is brought up to believe that he and she are the last of a royal race. Collin Urquhart sounds quite like Lawrence himself when he says tht a "demon" rules at the core of everyone, and that a certain few of these demons form a natural nobility. The aloneness that Urquhart cultivates in the midst of a busy and much traveled life, and teaches his daughter to cultivate, on the surface appears Laurentian enough. But it is all sham, in fact, for Colin Urquhartdoes does not draw his isolation from a profound inner source. He is simply vague and absent and draws only on a vain pride.
    I think this line is quite interesting in the part that you quoted above:
    His very beauty and his haunting musical quality became dreadful to her after the first few months. The strange echo: he was like a living echo! His very flesh, when you touched it, did not seem quite the flesh of a real man.
    Sorry, DM, we were actually posting around the same time. This is an edit on my part. I will let Virgil answer your post and mine, probably tomorrow.
    Last edited by Janine; 11-10-2008 at 01:08 AM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  2. #2432
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    Quote:
    He was a handsome man, with a wide-open blue eye that seemed sometimes to be looking at nothing, soft black hair brushed rather low on his low, broad brow, and a very attractive body. Add to this a most beautiful speaking voice, usually rather hushed and diffident, but sometimes resonant and powerful like bronze, and you have the sum of his charms. He looked like some old Celtic hero. He looked as if he should have worn a greyish kilt and a sporran, and shown his knees. His voice came direct out of the hushed Ossianic past.
    I just adored this description of the father. It really paints the image of this figure out of Celtic lore, some great chieftain king. And it also really sets him apart from the others, particularly the American relatives. Tough we do not really see much of them, they come off as a bit snobbish. I cannot help but to feel for him, for the way in which they treated him and seemed to look down to him. But he was so full of this robust pride. I found him to be really quite endearing, and charming.

    Quote:
    Add to this a most beautiful speaking voice, usually rather hushed and diffident, but sometimes resonant and powerful like bronze,
    I loved this description of his voice. Soft, and yet powerful. He does not have to raise his voice to make himself heard. It adds to the sense of nobility about him.
    I forgot to mention how the father is not just associated with ghost or spectres but with voices and echoes. So non-corporeal.

    Lawrence also makes a deal of his Scottishness and Celtic roots. Why? Any particualr reason. Again he has this northern person and southern person identities. Northern seems to be less corporeal.


    Quote:
    He did not marry till he was nearly forty, and then it was a wealthy Miss Prescott, from New England. Hannah Prescott at twenty-two was fascinated by the man with the soft black hair not yet touched by grey, and the wide, rather vague blue eyes. Many women had been fascinated before her. But Colin Urquhart, by his very vagueness, had avoided any decisive connection.
    Here we can see his disconnection from other people, as though he is set up to be an attractive man and one who is at least well off enough not to have to work, while still travel over the world, he does not marry until late in life. What makes him decide to marry now is unknown, perhaps it was for her wealth? For his very disconnectedness it does not seem as if he was driven by any true feelings of love.
    There is no question his disconnection for society is important. It reminds me of the central character of The Man Who Loved Islands. Remember him? But certainly this disconnect is important here in its own right. Dollie apparently inherets this quality. How many of his other characteristics does Dollie inherent?

    The use of the word mist, seems to touch back to the old Scottishness of Mr. Uruhart. It also adds to that vague feeling about him. That there was something obsecure about him, something drifting and elusisive.
    Yes I agree.

    He lives within his own world, and has no real concern or care for the physical world around him.
    I do think that is the heart of his character, and perhaps what he passes on to Dollie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Virgil, it is interesting how her mother refers to her as "My Dollie" and her father "My Princess." I had not even thought of a reference to the Ibsen play - "A Doll's House"...how do you see that connection exactly? Do you think Lawrence did think of that story when calling her Dollie?
    I think he does. But the connection is that Dollie is a forever child. She has been under her father's care and has not grown up. She's like a doll, much like the Ibsen character prior to leaving her husband.

    Also, what do you mean by the following statement? "Dollie and her father are definitely ethereal."
    That's another reference to their non-corporeal nature. Actually I'm glad you found that. It was clear the father was non-corporeal; I wasn't sure if Lawrence referred to Dollie this way too. Apparantly yes.

    Colin, the father, is described as "a fascinating spectre" and a "ghost," but is Dollie also described as being the same?
    I had the same question and you answered it yourself just above.

    I didn't notice that in my reading. It is a good observation that this aspect of the father would be the farthest from the blood consciousness reality or 'vitality', as you worded it. I didn't see Dollie as exactly like her father in his vague ways; described in the text as being "ghostly oblivious" or "absent" . I see 'The Princess' more so as a woman struggling against her own consciousness of blood vitality, but wanting it at some point, even though she rejects it at the same time within herself. This is jumping too far ahead, I know, but I think we will see that she is driven on by an unconscious desire to find that aspect of herself, and connect with the natural world and herself. In time, we will see the duality of this/her position, which is the core source of conflict in this story, I believe. It is the same sort of duality we always see in Lawrence's works and in Lawrence himself.
    Good point. I guess Lawrence is having it both ways. She is already ethereal, but there is something in her that is pushing toward blood vitality. But no matter how it's pushing it will never get there.

    In response to your last question, this may help. I just got a little insight while reading a passage from one of my references books about this story. The book is "The Minoan Distance, The Symbolism of Travel in D.H.Lawrence" by L.D Clark.

    Clark states:
    Quote:
    Dollie Urquhart, a "princess" because her eccentric father always calls her that, is brought up to believe that he and she are the last of a royal race. Collin Urquhart sounds quite like Lawrence himself when he says tht a "demon" rules at the core of everyone, and that a certain few of these demons form a natural nobility. The aloneness that Urquhart cultivates in the midst of a busy and much traveled life, and teaches his daughter to cultivate, on the surface appears Laurentian enough. But it is all sham, in fact, for Colin Urquhartdoes does not draw his isolation from a profound inner source. He is simply vague and absent and draws only on a vain pride.
    We haven't gotten to the demon part of him yet. I think that is very significant.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  3. #2433
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Lawrence also makes a deal of his Scottishness and Celtic roots. Why? Any particualr reason. Again he has this northern person and southern person identities. Northern seems to be less corporeal.
    The imporatnce placed upon the Cletic/Scottishness is interesting within the story. It seems to be this sort of conflict between the "old world" and the "new world" which appears in varrious ways in some of his other stories I have noticed. As you further down mentioned The Man Who Loved Islands, that story as well contained Celtic elements to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    There is no question his disconnection for society is important. It reminds me of the central character of The Man Who Loved Islands. Remember him? But certainly this disconnect is important here in its own right. Dollie apparently inherets this quality. How many of his other characteristics does Dollie inherent?
    Yes his disconnection is an important part of his character, and a central role within this story. His daughter does go one to take up many of his aspects. She is not truly concerned with they physical world around her, and she holds herself apart from others. It is interesting that her mother really has no true significance as The Princess does not seem to share any of her mothers traits. Even physically she is made to resemble her father. Though she may not be quite as truly etheral as her father was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    That's another reference to their non-corporeal nature. Actually I'm glad you found that. It was clear the father was non-corporeal; I wasn't sure if Lawrence referred to Dollie this way too. Apparantly yes.
    The Pricness is refered to as being fairy like many times throughout the story. In this way I think she like her father is being viewed in a non-copperal sense, being that Fae are etheral beings. It is also another connection to the Celtic roots of the story and the imporance of The Princess being tied to that Scottishness.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  4. #2434
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    The imporatnce placed upon the Cletic/Scottishness is interesting within the story. It seems to be this sort of conflict between the "old world" and the "new world" which appears in varrious ways in some of his other stories I have noticed.
    Yes you are right. You mentioned this before and it didn't register. I was focused on the Mexican/Indian culture as part of the new world and that didn't fit. There is the culture of her American relatives which is new world, but the Mexo-Indian culture I think brings it back to older, perhaps even older than celtic in Lawrence's eyes.

    The Pricness is refered to as being fairy like many times throughout the story. In this way I think she like her father is being viewed in a non-copperal sense, being that Fae are etheral beings. It is also another connection to the Celtic roots of the story and the imporance of The Princess being tied to that Scottishness.
    Oh yes, good point. Fairy is non-corporeal too. I didn't catch that.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  5. #2435
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Virgil this phrase was by Dark Muse: "Dollie and her father are definitely ethereal." not me. I was asking if Dolly was described as being ethereal anywhere in the actual text. I don't recall that she was, only her father.

    Virgil, To one of your comments the commentary book author notes, that the man she goes up the mountain with, is one of dark color; this is often seen in Lawrence's works. He is suppose to be a sort of Tony Luhran (American Indian blood) who in reality lived with the woman who invited Lawrence out to the ranch to begin with - Mabel Dodge. In "The Plumed Serpent", which follows this story the men are also of a darker race. This racial thing can be seen throughout Lawrence's work during this time period. I think in the story, "The Woman Who Rode Away" it is also evident. I know it is a main part of the "The Virgin and the Gypsy". I just watched the film adaptation of that book. I think, not only does Lawrence contrast cultural differences and colors of the skin, but also the idea of the darkness and light, and the future and the past, or old and new. As we get into this story further, I will show evidence of this idea. I do think that Ramono was representative of this 'mysterious' Indian darkness, most likely the 'darkness of the blood', knowing how Lawrence thought of these things.



    I will read both your posts again when I get back from the drugstore.
    Last edited by Janine; 11-12-2008 at 08:52 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Yes you are right. You mentioned this before and it didn't register. I was focused on the Mexican/Indian culture as part of the new world and that didn't fit. There is the culture of her American relatives which is new world, but the Mexo-Indian culture I think brings it back to older, perhaps even older than celtic in Lawrence's eyes.
    Sorry, did not mean to confuse. I was contrasting the Celtic as the old, vs. the American as the new when I had first mentioned it. That Mexico/Indian culture had not even crossed my mind. I was thinking more of the Pagansim of the Celts.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  7. #2437
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Virgil this phrase was by Dark Muse: "Dollie and her father are definitely ethereal." not me. I was asking if Dolly was described as being ethereal anywhere in the actual text. I don't recall that she was, only her father.
    I will see if I can find and post some of the fairy references made about The Princess

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  8. #2438
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    I did not re-read the whole story, but here are just a few of the exmples that I found which descirbe The Princess in an etheral way:

    She was something like a changeling, not quite human.
    The Princess she was, and the fairy from the North
    She looked at her interlocutor with that cold, elfin detachment of hers.
    And she had that quality of the sexless fariries, she did not change.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  9. #2439
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Dark Muse, those references are good and perhaps Lawrence is referring back to the Celtic heritage of the father. They lived in England first, didn't they? I read this story about a week or more ago and now I already forget the details.

    Thanks for listing those. She is seen as very fairy-like. I think this is really key - "she had that quality of the sexless fariries"...sort of like a other-being....interesting...."she is described as cold and detached." That is perfect to set up the story and what will ensue. 'Changling' also would indicate that she does not truly fit into either world, the new or the old, the one of sensual world of nature or her father's cold world of vagueness. Both the world of the Celts and the world of the American Indians bring up the idea of myth which is very characteristic Lawrence's texts and ideas. I read "The Plumed Serpent" and the Irish woman in the story seems to exist somewhere between two worlds as well, the world of Irish legend and myth and the pagan gods and the world of Mexico and the ancient gods. I think this story lead up to this novel. They both incorporate the two cultures and they find common ground in the idea of myth.

    I am kind of exhausted tonight and can't post anything else but this.
    Last edited by Janine; 11-13-2008 at 12:21 AM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  10. #2440
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Ok here's the next section.

    The Prescotts felt a deep but unadmitted resentment against Colin Urquhart. They said he was selfish. Therefore they discontinued Hannah's income, a month after her burial in Florence, after they had urged the father to give the child over to them, and he had courteously, musically, but quite finally refused. He treated the Prescotts as if they were not of his world, not realities to him: just casual phenomena, or gramophones, talking-machines that had to be answered. He answered them. But of their actual existence he was never once aware.

    They debated having him certified unsuitable to be guardian of his own child. But that would have created a scandal. So they did the simplest thing, after all--washed their hands of him. But they wrote scrupulously to the child, and sent her modest presents of money at Christmas, and on the anniversary of the death of her mother.

    To The Princess her Boston relatives were for many years just a nominal reality. She lived with her father, and he travelled continually, though in a modest way, living on his moderate income. And never going to America. The child changed nurses all the time. In Italy it was a contadina; in India she had an ayah; in Germany she had a yellow-haired peasant girl.

    Father and child were inseparable. He was not a recluse. Wherever he went he was to be seen paying formal calls going out to luncheon or to tea, rarely to dinner. And always with the child. People called her Princess Urquhart, as if that were her christened name.

    She was a quick, dainty little thing with dark gold hair that went a soft brown, and wide, slightly prominent blue eyes that were at once so candid and so knowing. She was always grown up; she never really grew up. Always strangely wise, and always childish.

    It was her father's fault.

    "My little Princess must never take too much notice of people and the things they say and do," he repeated to her. "People don't know what they are doing and saying. They chatter-chatter, and they hurt one another, and they hurt themselves very often, till they cry. But don't take any notice, my little Princess. Because it is all nothing. Inside everybody there is another creature, a demon which doesn't care at all. You peel away all the things they say and do and feel, as cook peels away the outside of the onions. And in the middle of everybody there is a green demon which you can't peel away. And this green demon never changes, and it doesn't care at all about all the things that happen to the outside leaves of the person, all the chatter-chatter, and all the husbands and wives and children, and troubles and fusses. You peel everything away from people, and there is a green, upright demon in every man and woman; and this demon is a man's real self, and a woman's real self. It doesn't really care about anybody, it belongs to the demons and the primitive fairies, who never care. But, even so, there are big demons and mean demons, and splendid demonish fairies, and vulgar ones. But there are no royal fairy women left. Only you, my little Princess. You are the last of the royal race of the old people; the last, my Princess. There are no others. You and I are the last. When I am dead there will be only you. And that is why, darling, you will never care for any of the people in the world very much. Because their demons are all dwindled and vulgar. They are not royal. Only you are royal, after me. Always remember that. And always remember, it is a great secret. If you tell people, they will try to kill you, because they will envy you for being a Princess. It is our great secret, darling. I am a prince, and you a princess, of the old, old blood. And we keep our secret between us, all alone. And so, darling, you must treat all people very politely, because noblesse oblige. But you must never forget that you alone are the last of Princesses, and that all other are less than you are, less noble, more vulgar. Treat them politely and gently and kindly, darling. But you are the Princess, and they are commoners. Never try to think of them as if they were like you. They are not. You will find, always, that they are lacking, lacking in the royal touch, which only you have--"

    The Princess learned her lesson early--the first lesson, of absolute reticence, the impossibility of intimacy with any other than her father; the second lesson, of naïve, slightly benevolent politeness. As a small child, something crystallised in her character, making her clear and finished, and as impervious as crystal.

    "Dear child!" her hostesses said of her. "She is so quaint and old-fashioned; such a lady, poor little mite!"

    She was erect, and very dainty. Always small, nearly tiny in physique, she seemed like a changeling beside her big, handsome, slightly mad father. She dressed very simply, usually in blue or delicate greys, with little collars of old Milan point, or very finely-worked linen. She had exquisite little hands, that made the piano sound like a spinet when she played. She was rather given to wearing cloaks and capes, instead of coats, out of doors, and little eighteenth-century sort of hats. Her complexion was pure apple-blossom.

    She looked as if she had stepped out of a picture. But no one, to her dying day, ever knew exactly the strange picture her father had framed her in and from which she never stepped.

    Her grandfather and grandmother and her Aunt Maud demanded twice to see her, once in Rome and once in Paris. Each time they were charmed, piqued, and annoyed. She was so exquisite and such a little virgin. At the same time so knowing and so oddly assured. That odd, assured touch of condescension, and the inward coldness, infuriated her American relations.

    Only she really fascinated her grandfather. He was spellbound; in a way, in love with the little faultless thing. His wife would catch him brooding, musing over his grandchild, long months after the meeting, and craving to see her again. He cherished to the end the fond hope that she might come to live with him and her grandmother.

    "Thank you so much, grandfather. You are so very kind. But Papa and I are such an old couple, you see, such a crochety old couple, living in a world of our own."
    Well, we definitely see the dichotomy that Dark Muse was alluding to between the father's world and the American relative's world.

    Another important detail is the inseparability of the father and child. It's as if his personality is being transfered over to the daughter. Or at least part of his personality.

    This sentence is the key to her personality and the key to the whole story:
    As a small child, something crystallised in her character, making her clear and finished, and as impervious as crystal.
    Crystal is a very important word for Lawrence. It is the opposite of a personality that has the capacity to melt, to change state, to become something else. I'll show later in the story the significance.

    Here's also a subtle forshadowing:
    Each time they were charmed, piqued, and annoyed. She was so exquisite and such a little virgin. At the same time so knowing and so oddly assured. That odd, assured touch of condescension, and the inward coldness, infuriated her American relations.
    This forshadows the climax of the story perfectly, the virginity, the self assuredness, the ay she infuriates people.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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    The Prescotts felt a deep but unadmitted resentment against Colin Urquhart. They said he was selfish. Therefore they discontinued Hannah's income, a month after her burial in Florence, after they had urged the father to give the child over to them,
    It sounds to me here, as if they blame the father for the death of his wife. It is also funny to me the way in which they call him selfish, and yet though we do not ever meet the relatives face to face in the story, they are presented I think in a rather unsavory way and as being quite snobbish. And what could be more selfish then wanting to take the child from its father?

    I do not think that it is being presented here in some act of intended goodwill. But I think the relatives are made to be generally dislikable. Particularly when contrasted with Colin's response to them

    and he had courteously, musically, but quite finally refused.
    I think it is hard not to root for him here, and see him as some sort of "hero" figure in his resistince against the Americnas.

    He treated the Prescotts as if they were not of his world, not realities to him: just casual phenomena, or gramophones, talking-machines that had to be answered.
    Perhaps I am just biased becasue everyone in my family hates my sisters in-laws, but I think this is just hysterical.

    talking-machines that had to be answered
    That is just great!

    But of their actual existence he was never once aware.
    I think when the Princess is with Romero at some point, a similar statement is made about her, and how she is no longer really aware of Romero's physical exisistince.

    Father and child were inseparable. He was not a recluse. Wherever he went he was to be seen paying formal calls going out to luncheon or to tea, rarely to dinner. And always with the child. People called her Princess Urquhart, as if that were her christened name.
    I found this part to be quite interesting. In spite of the fact that he was so removed from others, and from the "physcial" reality, and the fact that he was not truly connected to anyone, except maybe his daughter. There is an importance placed on the fact that he was not a reculse. He still moved within social circles. And there is a genral feeling that others liked him.

    She was a quick, dainty little thing with dark gold hair that went a soft brown, and wide, slightly prominent blue eyes that were at once so candid and so knowing. She was always grown up; she never really grew up. Always strangely wise, and always childish.
    This is an intersting contradiction within her charachter. And as I cannot remember now, if it was Janine or Virgil who pointed out, that in this way she is sort of like a doll. On the one hand she always remains somehow child like, and yet on the other hand she is never truly like a child. It kind of reminds me of those freaky paintings of Christ, where they paint him just looking like a miniture man. Instead of looking like an acutal baby, he just looks like a 3ft tall man sitting in Mary's lap.

    She looked as if she had stepped out of a picture. But no one, to her dying day, ever knew exactly the strange picture her father had framed her in and from which she never stepped.
    I found these lines to be quite interesting. Because of her physical apperance, and her foundness of "out of date" clothing, she appears as if she has emerged from a picture. While her inner self, is forever trapped within this ideal which her father has placed her inside.

    Only she really fascinated her grandfather. He was spellbound; in a way, in love with the little faultless thing. His wife would catch him brooding, musing over his grandchild, long months after the meeting, and craving to see her again
    Does anyone else find this at least somewhat disturbing? I am not suggesting that anything inapproprate acutally happend. But just something about this, I cannot help but to find a tad unsettling. His fascination/Obcession with her seems to go a tad beyond just normal and completely "innocent" affection.

    "Thank you so much, grandfather. You are so very kind. But Papa and I are such an old couple, you see, such a crochety old couple, living in a world of our own."
    This is another of my favorite little wits. I found this quite amusing.


    I do wish to address the speach ther father gives to her, it is not my intent to completely ignore it. But it is such an interesting and detatiled speach, I thought it would be best to address sperate from this post. As well as keeping this post from being too long.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  12. #2442
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    I am reading for once and not writing a lot for now. I don't really feel good tonight and can't fully concentrate. One passage does strike me though;

    She was a quick, dainty little thing with dark gold hair that went a soft brown, and wide, slightly prominent blue eyes that were at once so candid and so knowing. She was always grown up; she never really grew up. Always strangely wise, and always childish.
    Such opposites in this paragraph show us what Princess Urquhart is up against, within her own being. This predicts the conflict that will take place throughout her life as an adult; especially in the incident in the story we are discussing. Because Lawrence chose to place the two statements, back to back, one feel the meaning of the word 'wise' is related to age; especially since she also made reference to the fact her father and she were "such an old couple". Therefore 'wise' and 'childish' seem to be at odds with each other and show the divided aspects of her personaliy.

    Hope that makes some sense. I can't think too clearly tonight - sorry.

    Thanks for posting this next section, Virgil and interesting commentary, Dark Muse. I will have to read it all again tomorrow.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    By that statement and the use of the word wise, I pictured her as being something of a precocious child. As being "wise" beyond her years. As well as saw it as another way which connects her more with the "old"

    And by the way she lived her life, traveling all over with her father, it also strikes me she probably did not have a normal childhood. We are not given any indication of playmates, and it is hard to imagine her doing typically child like things.

    Her childishness in adulthood I think partly is related to her physical appearance, and the fact that she always remains this rather dainty little figure of a woman, as well I see it as having to do with her naivety, the fact that she never truly connects with reality, and her virginity which comes up often. There is something of an untouched innocence about her.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Yes, all of that is very true, Dark Muse. The shaping of the woman from a child was never developed because she had no playmates and so was forced into the adult world right of the bat and even though she was acting out as a adult she was actually more of a child who never grew up - sort of like a Peter Pan, but female. She then had no desire to actually grow up. Her father's shaping of her, ruined her to a great degree. Sad....
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    She then had no desire to actually grow up. Her father's shaping of her, ruined her to a great degree. Sad....
    I would have to disagree with this. Just because she is different does not make her ruined. One need not conform to the norms of soceity. I did not find her to be truly unhappy. And I cannot say I was really saddened by her. I quite admired her.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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