Poetry Bookclub 2

[stlukesguild]

Virgil... I don't ignore the fact that Montale speaks to the sea... the experiential is as valid and important as the symbolism that may lay beneath. I imagine that the Mediterranean is just that... that bit of the Mediterranean coast that Montale lived with for years as a child... that struck him with its starkness... its blaring sun... its jagged rocks and crashing waves... its intimations of the void and the infinite. At the same time I sense the Mediterranean is the Mediterranean tradition in which and against which he works to find a voice. "your vast language proclaim the sadness
of an aging boy who shouldn't have learned to think" may suggest the frustration of the educated, modern artist who senses that for all his sophistication he is but a stammerer in trying to come to terms with the "vast language" of nature... as well as the "vast language" of his great poetic predecessors. A great many modern artists in all genre turned to non-Western and "non-educated" sources (the arts of Africa, Asia, South America, the middle ages... the art of children, the mentally ill, or the self-taught artist) seeking what they imagined was a greater connection with nature... spirituality... all that made art real. How does a highly educated, sophisticated, urbane, agnostic artist come to terms with nature? Can he do anything but stammer in comparison with earlier poets for whom God and hell and nature were unquestionably real aspects of everyday life? Of course all his protestation is certainly ironic, as others have pointed out, as he clearly has some formidable poetic abilities.

Perhaps... as Virgil suggested... we should look at the other sections of the suite. Any parts that really strike you?

[stlukesguild]

I might note that Montale speaks of all his poetry as "waiting for the miracle"... and that it has been pointed out that there is commonly a problematic striving in his work due to the fact that he lacks the atheistic certainty of a Lucretius or even a Leopardi... but he also lacks the religious belief of a Dante. In his agnosticism he straddles the line... "waiting for the miracle"... looking for the ineffable... for something that he can't put his finger on.

[Virgil]

I'd hoped to let my quotations speak for themselves but now I see that I must further explain my ideas. I did not mean to imply that Montale was channeling Euripides, Virgil, and Shakespeare as influences or models. What I was trying to show was the similarity of their techniques. There are a few rhetorical devices which they have in common.

If only I could force
some fragment of your ecstasy
into this clumsy music of mine;
had I the talent to match your voices
with my stammering speech-

All of the examples I've listed begin with a statement of adynaton, that the subject they are about to treat is too great for them. They long for the eloquence of another, which suggests that the subject can be treated properly just not by them. I felt that this was different from apocarteresis, which is what religious poets like Dante or Firdawsi do when they say there are no words for what they are trying to express, that their subject is beyond the best poets and beyond poetry itself. What this adynaton does is twofold. It's first effect is that of eironeia, a greek word meaning feigned ignorance from which we derive the word irony. Those of you who've studied your Plato know that Socrates does this all the time. He sets up this "I'm just a simple country lawyer" faux humble persona for the purpose of persuading his audience who are now off their guard with lowered expectations. The poet at this point can only surpass the expectations of his listeners or if he does not he is still as good as his word. Secondly, the fact that Montale knows of other artists greater than himself, and correctly understands the magnitude of the subject he's about to treat flies in the face of the statements he's just made. Furthermore, any reference to a greater power than himself would automatically place him in relation to that object in a type of hierarchy which could only reflect well on Montale as we begin to think of them together. We know that he is attempting something which others have done before him, and so they have at least this much in common.

So what do we have so far? Montale has set up his persona at the beginning of his poem as a humble man with an admittedly minor poetic talent. He is about to try something very difficult and possibly above his abilities. If he should fail, as his numerous protestations attest, then he is still a virtuous man and his audience will sympathize with him because of his virtues and ambition. Montale has heightened the stakes of his discourse, while lowering expectations about his competence. When he succeeds, it's the underdog story, and we all cheer even louder.

Well, certainly he undercuts his abilities, and the effect you describe is true. I'm just not sure that that's what montale is after. Yes he undercuts his talent but I think it's in a relativeness to the sublime talent of the sea. I think to Montale it's any mortal could not have the talent of the sea. I think that's subtlly different than adynaton.

By the way, I'm awed by your knowledge of rhetoric. Where did you learn all those terms?

Those of you who know Italian might be familiar with a little term called sprezzatura, which is the art of appearing artless. Wikipedia says it was first used by Castiglione, and defines it as "a certain nonchalance, so as to conceal all art and make whatever one does or says appear to be without effort and almost without any thought about it." That is what Montale is striving for in this section of his poem. He purposely undercuts the smooth erudition of his lines by inserting local colloquialisms and affecting a plain style. The writing of a poem such as this is a very delicate, very difficult affair, but it's made to seem commonplace for Montale. "Oh, this? Just something I dashed off. You know I don't play those literary games. I haven't the talent." Montale knows this is the best part of his book, and so he's purposely prefacing it with light hearted condemnation.

Sprezzatura is a perfect word to apply to Montale. This is my first time reading him. I'm quite impressed.

Does anybody else feel the lament running through this poem: "If only I could" "all I have are"? It seems very sad, as if the speaker were mourning something.

Yes, and I think a lamenting feeling runs throough all nine sections. But perhaps it is most poignant here.

They go together, in my opinion, because the poet feels he thinks too much to be able to write - or maybe even understand - the sea (that's why I said earlier on that he reminded me on DH Lawrence a little), which doesn't think but just is, maybe. At the end he stops thinking and therefore the limits disappear. It seems to cohere with what you said about the ninth song, where he fuses last with the sea - because his thoughts are not there to block him anymore.

I see what you're saying. Yes, the poet reaches his limitless state by disolving his thoughts away, and that allows him to fuse with the sea in the nineth part. Excellent!! You know I'm an ameteur semi-expert on DH Lawrence and I didn't see what you meant earlier. But now I see and I think you're right. I don't think Montale is thinking along with Lawrence, but they are similar in some fashion.

And perhaps he loses both senses and sense because he is in the process of fusioning with the sea- he's dissolving into something larger than himself. The "booming" has overwhelmed him.

Could be.

[mortalterror]

By the way, I'm awed by your knowledge of rhetoric. Where did you learn all those terms?

Don't be too overawed. I spent about two and a half hours looking for the rhetorical terms that mean "false humility" and "feigned ignorance" and I wrote down all of the rhetorical terms which I thought applied as I went along. I don't know that stuff off the top of my head. In fact, I know there are more accurate terms which I just couldn't find. Eironeia is just as close as I could get before I gave up searching.

I read the first couple chapters of Aristotle's Rhetoric a few months back and I have a couple of rhetoric sites bookmarked which I combed for the devices I found. This is a good one, as is this one because it has excellent examples.

[Bitterfly]

I don't think Montale is thinking along with Lawrence, but they are similar in some fashion.

No, I don't think he is thinking along with him either - that would be denying Montale his individual genius. I'm pleased you saw the similarity as well, though! Can you see why the "dark love" reminds me of Lawrence too, albeit in a fuzzier way? Something like the dark voice of the senses/sex, which here cannot be expressed while he is still in an intellectual relationship with it.

Could be.

The reason I interpreted it that way was because the sudden connection between senses and sense (thought) bothered me. At first I had the impression that senses were important for him. But then I wondered whether he just didn't want to do away with everything that made up his individual consciousness, and sensory perceptions are part of that (what you perceive also reflects who you are). Dissolution into the whole is also, by the way, a Lawrentian idea!

[stlukesguild]

Perhaps it is time to begin going through the other parts of Mediterranean. It is very much intended as a whole... in spite of the fact that the sections may each stand on their own as independent poems. Montale mentioned that he was in part inspired by Debussy's La Mer... a musical cycle of (I believe) 3 parts.

A squall
of antic fleeting swoops
above my bent head.
The ground, crisscrossed
by twisted shadows of wild pines, scorches.
Far below, the sea is hidden
by trees, but more by the veil of haze
fitfully vented by the cracking soil.
Louder, then muffled, the sound of seething
breakers strangled
by a long line of shoals reaches my ears
...
I lift my gaze, suddenly the scolding stops; and down
to the boisterous waves streaks a flash
of blue-white arrows
two jays.

from Mediterranean section one
tr. William Arrowsmith

A vortice s’abbatte
sul mio capo reclinato
un suono d’agri lazzi.
Scotta la terra percorsa
da sghembe ombre di pinastri,
e al mare là in fondo fa velo
più che i rami, allo sguardo, l’afa che a tratti erompe
dal suolo che si avvena.
Quando più sordo o meno il ribollio dell’acque
che s’ingorgano
accanto a lunghe secche mi raggiunge:
o è un bombo talvolta ed un ripiovere
di schiume sulle rocce.
Come rialzo il viso, ecco cessare
i ragli sul mio capo; e via scoccare
verso le strepeanti acque,
frecciate biancazzurre, due ghiandaie.

[Virgil]

Don't be too overawed. I spent about two and a half hours looking for the rhetorical terms that mean "false humility" and "feigned ignorance" and I wrote down all of the rhetorical terms which I thought applied as I went along. I don't know that stuff off the top of my head. In fact, I know there are more accurate terms which I just couldn't find. Eironeia is just as close as I could get before I gave up searching.

I read the first couple chapters of Aristotle's Rhetoric a few months back and I have a couple of rhetoric sites bookmarked which I combed for the devices I found. This is a good one, as is this one because it has excellent examples.

I know what you mean. I've done the same. I have several books on Rhetorical terms and while I enjoy perusing them the concepts never seem to stick in my head or at my fingertips.

No, I don't think he is thinking along with him either - that would be denying Montale his individual genius. I'm pleased you saw the similarity as well, though! Can you see why the "dark love" reminds me of Lawrence too, albeit in a fuzzier way? Something like the dark voice of the senses/sex, which here cannot be expressed while he is still in an intellectual relationship with it.

Where did you see "dark love" in Montale? I can't seem to find it?

The reason I interpreted it that way was because the sudden connection between senses and sense (thought) bothered me. At first I had the impression that senses were important for him. But then I wondered whether he just didn't want to do away with everything that made up his individual consciousness, and sensory perceptions are part of that (what you perceive also reflects who you are). Dissolution into the whole is also, by the way, a Lawrentian idea!

I think you're right. The loss of consciousness is required to absorb the natural elements. That does echo Lawrence. Though I think Lawrence at times wants to be absorbed into the natural elements in addition to absorbing them in.

[Bitterfly]

Where did you see "dark love" in Montale? I can't seem to find it?

Oops, I don't have the text, so my memory sometimes plays tricks on me: it's actually the dark voice of love, and it's not in the Arrowhead translation but in the second one (suggested by - i think - stlukesguild).

I think you're right. The loss of consciousness is required to absorb the natural elements. That does echo Lawrence. Though I think Lawrence at times wants to be absorbed into the natural elements in addition to absorbing them in.

Well, I have the impression that the same goes for Montale - since he fuses with the sea in the last part of the poem.

[Bitterfly]

Montale mentioned that he was in part inspired by Debussy's La Mer... a musical cycle of (I believe) 3 parts.

Ah, I love it when there are interferences between literature and music. Funny how Debussy seemed to inspire a few authors, no? Didn't his Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune inspire Mallarmé?

It's rather difficult to know what to say about the passage you suggested, apart the fact that's it's pretty animated (lots of movement, rather chaotic) and sensual (I mean by that that almost all the senses come into play), and that I wonder why the sea is first presented through sound and not sight, since it's doubly hidden, both by the tree and by the "veil of haze". Alas, I don't know what the word in Italian means, but "veil" also suggests a possible unveiling, therefore revelation.
I suppose that for us as well sound is more "important", because this is a poem, even it is pretty visual.

And the words used are violent: "twisted", "wild", "scorches", "fitfully", "cracking", "seething breakers strangled", "scolding". There's something of a hellish end of the world feeling - smoke coming out of the cracked earth, angry sounds, and darkness ("shadows").
He gets out into the light at the end though, with the "flash" and "blue-white" - but the "arrows" are still a threatening image.
What part does it come from?

[stlukesguild]

This is from the first poem of the suite. I agree that it is wonderfully aural. I especially like "scolding" in the final few lines... where the sea suddenly ceases its noise (or so its seems in his mind?) as there streaks two blue-white arrows... the blue jays. It suggests that all the perception of the sea in terms of sound... crashing waves, etc... is suddenly interrupted by the unexpected visual experience.

[Bitterfly]

Oh, of course, you're right. I wonder why his head is bent at the beginning... a penitent's position? Prayer? Why does he finally look up? If it's the first poem, it's a pretty dramatic beginning... I can visualise it quite well - he lets the sounds wash over him first, before gazing at the sea and allowing us a glimpse at it, after all that sound.
And why jays? They're not exactly sea-birds, are they.

Ah, it's a little annoying not to be able to study the words... I'd like to know why he chose "squall" for the first line, but of course it's not the same word in Italian!

[Virgil]

Oh, of course, you're right. I wonder why his head is bent at the beginning... a penitent's position? Prayer? Why does he finally look up? If it's the first poem, it's a pretty dramatic beginning... I can visualise it quite well - he lets the sounds wash over him first, before gazing at the sea and allowing us a glimpse at it, after all that sound.
And why jays? They're not exactly sea-birds, are they.

Ah, it's a little annoying not to be able to study the words... I'd like to know why he chose "squall" for the first line, but of course it's not the same word in Italian!

It's the most dramatic of the series of poems. There seems to be a trend toward more and more transcendental as one continues through the poems. This one is very physical.

I don't understand the jays either. I think the fact that its birds is significant and I think follows the tradition of bird symbolism in literature. Perhaps this is an American understanding of blue jays, but they are not sea birds, at least not here. I don't know if by the Mediterranian there are different jays. And why are there two jays? Another observation, there are plovers in the third poem and those are most defiitely sea birds.

[Bitterfly]

Bird symbolism in literature? I thought about that too, but wasn't quite sure what to compare them to apart from the dove of Noah's ark (the end of the flood, a sort of rebirth I suppose)... and my brain is too sluggish just right now to come up with others!! But I guess birds are often symbolically messengers of some sort, and bridges between two realms - air and land - maybe even water - so maybe between material and transcendental?

I went to look up jays and they're apparently talkative birds (don't you think it's wild what studying literature can teach you sometimes? i find out the oddest bits of information! ). Didn't see anything else that could be interesting, but I don't have a dictionary of symbols and besides maybe Montale wasn't that much into symbolism.

The birds seem really ambivalent to me as well: at the beginning they're swooping about his head, at the end they're arrows.. 'Tis strange, hum.

What do you think about "squall"? as it's of "antic fleeting swoops", he's mixing birds and water in a way - depends whether you understand squall as a cry or as rush of water or wind... interesting word.

[Virgil]

Bird symbolism in literature? I thought about that too, but wasn't quite sure what to compare them to apart from the dove of Noah's ark (the end of the flood, a sort of rebirth I suppose)... and my brain is too sluggish just right now to come up with others!! But I guess birds are often symbolically messengers of some sort, and bridges between two realms - air and land - maybe even water - so maybe between material and transcendental?

I went to look up jays and they're apparently talkative birds (don't you think it's wild what studying literature can teach you sometimes? i find out the oddest bits of information! ). Didn't see anything else that could be interesting, but I don't have a dictionary of symbols and besides maybe Montale wasn't that much into symbolism.

The birds seem really ambivalent to me as well: at the beginning they're swooping about his head, at the end they're arrows.. 'Tis strange, hum.

What do you think about "squall"? as it's of "antic fleeting swoops", he's mixing birds and water in a way - depends whether you understand squall as a cry or as rush of water or wind... interesting word.

Birds in literature: from dove in Noah's ark to holy spirit to Keat's Nightingale, to Shelley's Skylark to Checkov's Seagull to Coleridge's albatross to Yeats' swanns. Others Wallace Stevens, DH Lawrence, Ted Hughs. I bet the list is extensive.

I think if you look at the Italian it's definitely meant as water. But there is a parallel between the squall of water and the birds.

[JBI]

Birds usually in literature from what I understand represent a poet, or poetic force. Perhaps that is what Montale is playing on?