September / Russia Reading: The Idiot by Dostoevsky

[Gladys]

the difference between the ordinary and the extraordinary people is a recurring topic in Dostoevsky's writings

The prince and Raskolinikov are extraordinary, and both show much compassion, though Raskolinikov is much less likeable.
'The Idiot' bathes the reader in joy and light, whereas 'Crime and Punishment' locks the reader away in the darkness of a dank dungeon. While a fine novel, reading the latter is akin to self-torture. More pleasant to read are such Dostoevsky novels as 'Netochka Nezvanova', 'The Village of Stepanchikovo', 'The Insulted and Injured', 'The Gambler' and 'The Brothers Karamazov'.

With regards to the ending, I must say that I was a bit disappointed, however, I'll try reading it again because I think I didn't understand everything.

I rarely get the ending of a great novel immediately, nor do I expect to. I also was nonplussed for some hours at the unexpected ending of 'The Idiot'. For me, understanding a Dostoevsky novel grows days or weeks after finishing. Isn't delayed gratification is part of the enjoyment of most literature?

[bazarov]

I know this is dropping back a bit in the discussion, but as I haven't posted in some time.. =p It would've been interesting to see how the rest of "The Life and Times of a Great Sinner" would have turned out... Because Dostoevsky did really believe that a return to traditional Russian Orthodoxy would save the world, and like Bazatov mentioned previously, this is touched upon in TBK and the Devils.. But what is interesting is the argument against any form of religion far outweighs the argument for religion, for russian orthodoxy in particular in TBK.. Ivan destroys all Alyosha's arguments, and though Father Zossima's dying words are supposed to be somewhat of a counter to this, they really do not stand up much in the face of Ivan's powerful and depressing statements of reality, in "rebellion" and "the grand inquisitor" I think are the two chapters... Ivan is terribly disillusioned and it seems as though anyone conscious or aware of surroundings would also be disillusioned by religion and the lack of harmony it allows in the universe.. especially on the idea of forgiveness..

House of The Deads is also very good.

islandclimber, I regret he never wrote "The Life and Times of a Great Sinner" till end.

But, he didn't attack ''any form'' of religion in TBK. If you remember from those two chapters you named correctly, he attacked Roman Church. Grand Inquisitor is in Sevilla, and Richard was initiated in Roman Church; he never mentions Russian Orthodoxy. In Rebellion, Ivan asks Alyosha what to do with that man and Alyosha states:''Kill him...'' And Ivan laughs...Not to religion, maybe only to Alyosha.

Matthew, chapter 22 ;

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Alyosha is not chosen, and he realizes it later.

"The Idiot" is so interesting because it is the opposite... the Prince is portrayed as a Christ figure and self-martyred in a sense just like Christ, he embraces his sacrifice willingly for the better of everyone... A very depressing ending but nevertheless an interesting ending... is there redemption in belief in Christ shown here??? hard to say...

TBK was his last novel, so there could not be a redemption to a Christ in Idiot, only the opposite. But, we know that it's not like that.
Also, similar to Fathers and Sons; where Bazarov died, in TBK Ivan also dies. Their death does not show only death of one man, more fall of idea. Alyosha stays, with his kindness and desire for helping and loving others.

[islandclimber]

House of The Deads is also very good.

islandclimber, I regret he never wrote "The Life and Times of a Great Sinner" till end.

But, he didn't attack ''any form'' of religion in TBK. If you remember from those two chapters you named correctly, he attacked Roman Church. Grand Inquisitor is in Sevilla, and Richard was initiated in Roman Church; he never mentions Russian Orthodoxy. In Rebellion, Ivan asks Alyosha what to do with that man and Alyosha states:''Kill him...'' And Ivan laughs...Not to religion, maybe only to Alyosha.

Matthew, chapter 22 ;

Alyosha is not chosen, and he realizes it later.



TBK was his last novel, so there could not be a redemption to a Christ in Idiot, only the opposite. But, we know that it's not like that.
Also, similar to Fathers and Sons; where Bazarov died, in TBK Ivan also dies. Their death does not show only death of one man, more fall of idea. Alyosha stays, with his kindness and desire for helping and loving others.

yes, you're right Bazarov.. I was making much too wide a generalization... he was just attacking the roman catholic church... for the most part... and suggesting he was attacking all christian religion is quite the mistake Ivan doesn't die in TBK, or I don't remember this??? his idea dies when he loses his mind though, as Bazarov's idea in F&S dies when he dies...

thank you for correcting my mistake..

[bazarov]

yes, you're right Bazarov.. I was making much too wide a generalization... he was just attacking the roman catholic church... for the most part... and suggesting he was attacking all christian religion is quite the mistake Ivan doesn't die in TBK, or I don't remember this??? his idea dies when he loses his mind though, as Bazarov's idea in F&S dies when he dies...

thank you for correcting my mistake..

Ufff, thank you also on correcting my mistake. Ivan didn't die, of course.

[Gladys]

I am hopeful to finish up soon

How are you going, Janine?

I am missing a continuation of the running commentary you provided us on the first half of the novel.

[Janine]

How are you going, Janine?

I am missing a continuation of the running commentary you provided us on the first half of the novel.

Ah...so sorry for taking so long. I have never struggled so towards an ending. Thanks for not forgetting me, Gladys. I will definitely finish up tonight or tomorrow. I have only about 22 pages left to go; so I am anxious to finish and comment. I had a cold for a few weeks, so that it made it hard to concentrate or if I did, I had to read this novel slowly, in order to fully absorb it. Wow, there is a lot there to discuss.
Let me just ask, what do you all think of the consumptive youth, Ippolit? So often he is featured in this story. He is definitely a prominent character. He seems very complex.

I still don't know what to make or Aglaia or her actions. She miffs me somewhat. How old is she suppose to be? I was a bit confused about the meeting of her and Nataysia at the house, face to face, and their words in front of the two men. Why did not Rozoghin get furious when she was left with Myshkin? Is that a stupid question? I thought he would be insanely jealous of Myshkin or by now does he despise Nataysia?

Does anyone know the year that this story is taking place? or the time period - is it mid to late 1800's or later? I can't get any true sense of the time this story is set in.

[Janine]

Yeah! Last night I finished the book! I have to go out today but later I will read the posts in this thread. The ending was truly strange, but good I thought.

[weltanschauung]

The prince and Raskolinikov are extraordinary, and both show much compassion, though Raskolinikov is much less likeable.
'The Idiot' bathes the reader in joy and light, whereas 'Crime and Punishment' locks the reader away in the darkness of a dank dungeon. While a fine novel, reading the latter is akin to self-torture. More pleasant to read are such Dostoevsky novels as 'Netochka Nezvanova', 'The Village of Stepanchikovo', 'The Insulted and Injured', 'The Gambler' and 'The Brothers Karamazov'.

the gambler is wonderful, although its evident the difference youll find in the depth of the whole story in comparison to later books. and that unexpected ending is so shocking you cant help but think "how could you fool me like that!"
buy yeah, agree with you that crime and punishment and the idiot are mood paradoxes, but i think the great catch about the idiot is the irony on the tittle, because although the prince is seen by everyone as the idiot, hes actually the wisest one amongst that circle of social insanity, dont you think.

[Gladys]

the gambler is wonderful...and that unexpected ending is so shocking

That the young Alexei Ivanovich runs off to Paris to be with Madamoiselle Blanche De Cominges, in the ending of 'The Gambler', is surely the most shocking transition I have read. Years after reading, I am still reeling.

although the prince is seen by everyone as the idiot, he's actually the wisest one amongst that circle of social insanity, don't you think.

Indeed.

what do you all think of the consumptive youth, Ippolit?

He is impossible to like, and yet the prince comes to love him. Later in the novel, Rogozhin proves even less likeable. I ended up seeing both through the eyes of the prince.

I still don't know what to make or Aglaya or her actions. She miffs me somewhat. How old is she supposed to be? I was a bit confused about the meeting of her and Nataysia at the house, face to face, and their words in front of the two men. Why did not Rozoghin get furious when she was left with Myshkin? Is that a stupid question? I thought he would be insanely jealous of Myshkin or by now does he despise Nataysia?

The young Aglaya gravely misconstrues both Nastasya Filippovna and the prince. The prince agrees to marriage with the Nastasya through compassion for two lost souls - for neurotic Nastasya and murderous Rogozhin - even though Myshkin truly dreads both. His motive is to save Nastasya from despair and Rogozhin from anarchy. He fails, sacrificing himself.

Aglaya is assertive, ardent and loyal, but lacking in intuition. Her love for the Prince could only have been defeated, by the awesome (almost divine) sacrifice the prince suddenly makes in the hope of saving Roghozin and Nastasya from despair or worse. Can Aglaya, or indeed anybody, be expected to recognise selfless love of such magnitude? If Aglaya had stayed longer in the house of Nastasya Filippovna, the prince would have explained his motives to the floundering Aglaya, giving her strength enough to refuse, later on, a disastrous Polish adventure.

Roghozin does not get furious at the engagement because the adamant Nastasya Filippovna is not to be trifled with. Remember what she did with his hundred thousand roubles!

[weltanschauung]

[QUOTE=Gladys;631972]That the young Alexei Ivanovich runs of to Paris to be with Madamoiselle Blanche De Cominges, in the ending of 'The Gambler', is surely the most shocking transition I have read. Years after reading, I am still reeling. [QUOTE]

nononononoNO!
maybe it was only me, but throughout the whole book i never realised alexei was the vicious gambler. along the story he is always wandering off about "the gamblers", and he makes you look at "them", and not at him. the very last page is simply amazing, because its when i realised he also had no idea it was him, and not just the "others".

[Janine]

I read all the posts - all eight pages and thought everyone did a fine job in discussing this novel. It helped now to read these comments but I had to skirt around the other books mentioned since I want to read some of those and don't want to know the ending.

Gladys, your commentary in it's own thread was great and very helpful, insightful. I will repost it for everyone here; it is so well written; I commend !

For anyone interested in my take on the ending:

SPOILER: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=34352

Now I am exhausted. I voted, but immediately wished I could change my vote to the hightest in the poll - sorry about that. I guess I held back some, since as I stated before, I did find some passages a bit long-winded. However, this is a novel I would highly recommend to others. It is a very unique story and I liked how everyone commented about the Christ parellels, throughout this thread; Gladys even quoting some scripture from the bible. I will try to add some more commentary tomorrow. I desire to read some online commentary or the Sparks Notes as well. I am tired now so I am going to relax and watch a film.

[Gladys]

i never realised alexei was the vicious gambler

It only now occurs to me that Alexei Ivanovich's biggest gamble was running off to Paris with capricious Blanche!

[weltanschauung]

haha, discussion over dostoievsky will never end!

[Janine]

haha, discussion over dostoievsky will never end!

haha....and I hope it doesn't. That means this is a good group and the book is a very though-provoking story. I know with me, all of this is sinking in now. I found myself forming some questions in my head last night. I hope to post those later tonight.

[bazarov]

Now when Janine is over

In 1848 Dostoevsky was sentenced to death. He was part Petrashevich group; socialists utopists and on one meeting he read ''Letter to Gogol'' by Belinsky ( he was arbitrum elegantiarum in those days Russia) and the was the reason for death penalty. Execution should have been public, but in the last moment it was changed to 4 years in Siberia(described lately in Memories From The House of Dead) and 4 years in exile.

In 1864 his wife and his brother died; he decided to pay off all his brother's debts and it almost ruined him, and also he started to gamble.

In 1867 he went to Geneva, saw Holbein's picture ''Death Christ'' and says to his wife:''From picture like this, man could lose his faith!''

He starts to write ''Idiot''. His first idea of the story was much different from it's final. He imagined 2 families, he considered to be normal for his time; they were falling apart, morally and financialy. One was fallen noble family, father
general who spend all his property abroad, and returned to Russia to live the rest of his life, mother, ''women worth of every respect, very generous but cranky'', families favorite - elder son,'' pretty boy, totally dandy, but would like to be original'', younger son who nobody likes - Idiot; and adopted and dumped Minyona. Second family: father ''reprobate'', friend with first father from scholar day, mother who is also friend with first mother, one is noble type and the other is type of clerk's wife, their daughter ''hero, pretty boy fiancee, arrogant and incredibly pretty girl''

In September of 1867, in newspapers he read about proces against Umecky family, because of ''overusing parents rights'' and against their 15 years old daughter Olga who tried to burn their house 4 times from revenge. Pairing Olga Umecka and Minyona he got Nastasya Filipovna.
Character of the Idiot was quite changed from first idea to final Prince Myshkin. Original Idiot was ''insulted, arrogant, with no measure in good or evil, he seeks resurrection in arrogancy''. Main idea of the novel was:''What a power, what a passion in todays youth, but still they don't believe in nothing. Unlimited idealism with unlimited sensualism.''
In newspapers he read an article about a man who killed another man because of golden watch saying:''God, please forgive me!'' and he mentioned it in novel. Name of the village was Myshkin.

On November 22nd of 1867, he destroyed his whole work on novel, next 15 days spends creating new ideas ''he was changing plans 6 times per day'' and on December 12th, he started final version. Main idea for final version was:'' I have one idea in my head and it bothers me for quite a long time, but I never tried to make a novel from it, because that idea is too heavy and I am not ready for it, although is very tempting and I like it very much. The idea is - to describe absolutely beautiful man. Nothing can be harder then that, in my opinion, especially in now days...That idea already happened in my mind, partly though; and I needed total form! Only my desperate position made me to write it now; I took a risk like on roulette, hope it will end well.''

He wrote a letter to his sister's daughter, to who he dedicated idiot:''Main idea is to describe absolutely beautiful man. Nothing can be harder then that, in my opinion, especially in now days. All writers, not only Russian but from whole Europe tried, but every time failed to describe absolute beauty. That task is extremely hard. Beauty is ideal, and ideal - not only ours, but from whole Europe is not even closely reached. Only one creature on this world is absolutely beautiful, and that's Christ, so existence of that endlessly beautiful creature is truly a miracle. From all beautiful literatures in Christians literature Don Quijote is mostly precise, but he is wonderful just because he is funny. Dickens's Pickwick (although not good like Don Quijote) is also funny and that's the only reason why readers like him. Readers feel pity to that beauty because it's funny and it doesn't realize how worth it really is. In that pitiness lies humor. Jean Valjean is also good try, but sympathy toward him comes from his great lack of happiness and society's unfairness to him. my hero has nothing of that, so I am afraid I will fail.''

Pretty boy family was idea for family Ivolgin - Ganya, general, Kolya, Varya and her fiance Pticin, and pretty boy fiancee was a model for Aglaya. Nastasya got attributes of all four woman main characters from original version. Rogozhin was the only of main characters who wasn't mentioned in original version. Still, he has many attributes of original Idiot, at least his bad sides ( good ones went to Myshkin). Another event affected on Rogozhin's character. In Moscow, young merchant Mazurin got 2 million rublya's after father's death but he spend them quickly. One night, he calls jewelery Kalmikov to his home and kills him with razor. He covered him with oilcloth, put four tanks containing disinfectant around him and it layed their like that for months in house where he lived with his old mother.

First part of the novel had great effect on readers, so did second and the third, but ''I am afraid for the last part, it must be great; whole story was written just because of the last part!''
Novel was finished in November of 1869.''I am unsatisfied with novel, it does not express even tenth of what I wanted to express. Still, I won't throw it away; I like my fallen idea equal.''