Personal Responsibility

[Dark Muse]

I agree that people in poverty do not have the same options, and that it is not the fault of the children, but as they grow up they can make some choices to better thier lives, and I can speak from people who I have personally known, who were raised in horrible conditions, and as a result of that, he made some bad mistakes when he was younger, but as he grew up, he matured, and in spite of how he was raised he still knew he had to make changes that what he was doing was not good or right, so he did take steps to better his life.

A person always has a choice to do something. Once a person gets old enough to make thier own desiscions, if they continue on a certain course of bad behvaior, or simply expect the government to take care of them without making an effort, I do not buy into "it is not my fault, I had a bad childhood"

Becasue there are others who had the same, or simillar conditions, but they did raise above it. It is possible.

[motherhubbard]

In many ways I agree. I had a friend who came from an abusive childhood and really did have a lot to overcome. She loved to blame her parents for every bad choice she made and she made a lot. I remember once when we were 16 telling her that at some point she couldn’t blame her folks anymore and would have to blame herself. She really didn’t appreciate that and we weren’t friends after that. The last I heard about her wasn’t good.

I’m really glad that your friend was able to overcome his childhood. It really says a lot about a person who manages to beat the odds. Did he do that with children? Was he able to go to school or get some kind of job training? If he had kids, who watched them while he was in school, and then at work, and then doing homework? Did he have to try to support a family while working at McDonalds and no family or friends to help? If so, how did he have money left over to pay for college? It’s impressive when someone can support a family by working for seven dollars an hour at McDonalds or Wal-mart while they go to college to improve their situation. Seven dollars doesn’t cover rent, gas, utilities, groceries, childcare, diapers, medication… It’s not really enough to cover milk and gas. I suppose all the people working at the low paying jobs should just get better jobs and if they weren’t so lazy or stupid they would. Many many people in bad situations got there before they were old enough to be truly accountable for their desperate decisions. Then what can they do? Sometimes it takes more than hard work; sometimes it takes more than good decisions. I’m not saying it never happens. It does and I’m so glad it does. The fact is that without personal responsibility it won’t happen for those in poverty. But it takes more than that.

If you pull support from these families their children will starve to death. If the government won’t help these children who will? Individuals lack the infrastructure to go into the homes and assist the children. I suppose the government could just take the children from the homes of everyone who uses government assistance, but what could we do with millions and millions of needy children. How do we prevent the parents from having more?

[Dark Muse]

I am not saying that all goverment support should be pulled, but perhaps I am just cyncial, but I do belive that a lot of people use it to handicap themselves instead of using it as an aide to try and get by and hopefully try and eventurally get into a better situation, but there are those who abuse the system. There are those who think they are "intitled to it" without them having to make any personal effort. People who just live off of it, and do not try to find thier own source of income.

I had a friend in highschool, and her father and step-mother never legally got married, becasue with thier combined income they would not qualify for food stamps, even though they both had jobs, and they could have supported thsmelves and thier family without it, they wanted the free hand out.

[motherhubbard]

I am not saying that all goverment support should be pulled, but perhaps I am just cyncial, but I do belive that a lot of people use it to handicap themselves instead of using it as an aide to try and get by and hopefully try and eventurally get into a better situation, but there are those who abuse the system. There are those who think they are "intitled to it" without them having to make any personal effort. People who just live off of it, and do not try to find thier own source of income.

This is the absolute truth! I couldn’t agree with you more.

I had a friend in highschool, and her father and step-mother never legally got married, becasue with thier combined income they would not qualify for food stamps, even though they both had jobs, and they could have supported thsmelves and thier family without it, they wanted the free hand out.

I know! If everything in my life were exactly the same minus the marriage certificate my husband and I would qualify for everything the government has to offer. It would really be nice to have my tuition paid for! I understand your cynicism. Sometimes it looks like bad choices are rewarded and the transverse is that good choices are penalized. I just ask myself if I’m willing to be taken advantage of to help the few who are trying and in truth I am. I want to make a better life for myself and my family. I would totally use any government assistance I qualified for to do that. I know a lot of professionals and blue collar workers who wouldn’t have been able to improve their lives without the help, but I know loads of people who take advantage.

[Ohmyscience]

What do you mean by held responsible and accountable Muse? They may say they are not responsible for their situation but that is not the problem. It is most likely because they are in a bad situation that according to you can be helped where as they think the contrary. For example your friend in a bad relationship. Does she think she can ever find another partner? Do you think she can? Truthfully not everyone is capable of finding one. Perhaps this is why she choses to stay in a bad relationship rather than being alone.

On the opposite end are those that are successful, can they be truly held responsible for their success? Suppose a priviledge kid grows up to be a doctor and life is great for him/her can they really proclaim that they have earned it despite having such an unfair advantage to begin with

[Bitterfly]

I’m really glad that your friend was able to overcome his childhood. It really says a lot about a person who manages to beat the odds.

I really agree with this statement. I've always admired people from difficult backgrounds who've managed to make their lives into something. Children from privileged backgounds, even if they often have to work hard as well to succeed, have it easier on the whole, obviously.

As for those who take advantage of the system, maybe they've only had bad examples in front of them, and a lax upbringing? My parents have always told me to rely on myself, not on others or on government handouts. In consequence, I'd feel ashamed of myself if I took advantage of the system. But what about the people who haven't had the same kind of idea repeated to them since infancy? It makes sense that they should be, on the contrary, proud of wheedling money out of the government even if, especially if, they're not entitled to it. I'm not saying their behaviour is admirable, mind you, just that it's understandable.

[Dark Muse]

What do you mean by held responsible and accountable Muse? They may say they are not responsible for their situation but that is not the problem. It is most likely because they are in a bad situation that according to you can be helped where as they think the contrary. For example your friend in a bad relationship. Does she think she can ever find another partner? Do you think she can? Truthfully not everyone is capable of finding one. Perhaps this is why she choses to stay in a bad relationship rather than being alone

A person is capable of living without being in a relationship. And if she is choosing to stay with the person, she needs to stop complaining about it, because she is making that choice, and she knows the consequences of her choice, so she needs to deal with it, and quit trying to get pity from others when she is responsible for her situation.

As far is "not everyone can find another partner" that sounds like a bunch of bull to me. I cannot say I have ever heard of anyone who has been condemned to living the rest of their life alone because one single relationship did not work out.

Ending a relationship is not the end of the world like so many drama queens are given to try and think.

What do you mean by held responsible and accountable Muse?

Well let me give another example of what I mean by Personal reasonability and accountability.

With the hall obesity thing these days, there had been this group that wanted to sue McDonalds for the fact that they were obese, and there had been talk about raising the tax on fast food the way they did with cigarettes.

They wanted to hold the fast food companies accountable for selling unhealthy food, that others were of their own free will choosing to buy and eat.

People decided that it was not really there reasonability what they were choosing to eat, and that instead of thinking, hey maybe I should not have a big Mac for dinner, or maybe it would be a bad idea to have a super sized coke and fries, and a triple cheese burger.

No, instead of looking at themselves and saying, maybe I am 300 pounds, because I eat crappy food on a daily basis and do not get any exercise, they say, it is the evil cooperation's, because if they were not selling the food I would not be buying it, and I cannot be held responsible for what I am choosing to put into my own body.

And there is a certain fraction of people, and special interest groups who validate this response by saying, oh yes you are right, we need to go after those evil cooperation's. Because how can we expect an individual to have any control over themselves and what they choose to do.

[absurda]

I agree that mankind in general is responsible for everything we are living, and we complain but we don't do anything to change the current situation. But when we look closer, to each individual, then it's more difficult to be so strict. I have a friend who complains a lot about her life and never does anything to change it, but she suffers from obsessive–compulsive disorder. I honestly don't know if she could be held responsible for her situation, because I don't know how her mind works. There is also the personality factor. Some people have a stronger personality, while others are weak. The strong ones can always survive, no matter where life leads them. The weak ones though can't do it by themselves, they need someone to act in their behalf. I think we should avoid judging others, because usually when we do it we assume that the others are like us. But I sympathize with you, because yesterday my boyfriend ate A LOT of white bread knowing that white bread always makes him sick the next day. I told him not to eat it, but he ignored me, because he was hungry. Now, guess what he told me today? He's sick. I just had to tell him "I told you so".

[Dark Muse]

The weak ones though can't do it by themselves, they need someone to act in their behalf. I think we should avoid judging others, because usually when we do it we assume that the others are like us. But I sympathize with you, because yesterday my boyfriend ate A LOT of white bread knowing that white bread always makes him sick the next day. I told him not to eat it, but he ignored me, because he was hungry. Now, guess what he told me today? He's sick. I just had to tell him "I told you so".

Well I am a survival of the fitist type of person. I do not believe in babying those that are to weak-willed to take care of themselves. I think they create their own conditions and I do not think they are truly incapable but others feel sorry of them and enable them. I think they really could make choices in their own life if they were forced to. Instead of told it was ok to be completely infective in their own life, that someone else would just do it for them.

[motherhubbard]

Well let me give another example of what I mean by Personal reasonability and accountability.

With the hall obesity thing these days, there had been this group that wanted to sue McDonalds for the fact that they were obese, and there had been talk about raising the tax on fast food the way they did with cigarettes.

I don't have a problem with taxing things like fast food. Not at all.

Well I am a survival of the fitist type of person. I do not believe in babying those that are to weak-willed to take care of themselves. I think they create their own conditions and I do not think they are truly incapable but others feel sorry of them and enable them. I think they really could make choices in their own life if they were forced to. Instead of told it was ok to be completely infective in their own life, that someone else would just do it for them.

Spoken like someone who has either overcome a great deal with no help (or no help they can recognize) or like someone who has never had much to overcome. Strength may be your hubris. I read a thread about the correct way to use the word hubris last week and now I’m second guessing my usage here.

I don't like to baby people, but I always try to offer encouragement and support.

[wessexgirl]

Well I am a survival of the fitist type of person. I do not believe in babying those that are to weak-willed to take care of themselves. I think they create their own conditions and I do not think they are truly incapable but others feel sorry of them and enable them. I think they really could make choices in their own life if they were forced to. Instead of told it was ok to be completely infective in their own life, that someone else would just do it for them.

Again, this is very harsh. There may be some people who are capable, but many are not. You're tarring everyone with the same brush, and assuming that the situation they're in is their own fault, and they have the means, intelligence, circumstances etc. to change their lives. Your choice of language, i.e. "weak-willed", to describe them, is unfair. You don't know the circumstances behind someones situation, and many people in such circumstances are not "weak-willed", but either of low intelligence, mentally ill, depressed, and/or just plain unlucky. The situation they find themselves in makes them apathetic, if they have the knowledge or intelligence to try and change their lives. What's the saying..."therefore but the grace of God go I?"

[Dark Muse]

Again, this is very harsh. There may be some people who are capable, but many are not. You're tarring everyone with the same brush, and assuming that the situation they're in is their own fault, and they have the means, intelligence, circumstances etc. to change their lives. Your choice of language, i.e. "weak-willed", to describe them, is unfair. You don't know the circumstances behind someones situation, and many people in such circumstances are not "weak-willed", but either of low intelligence, mentally ill, depressed, and/or just plain unlucky. The situation they find themselves in makes them apathetic, if they have the knowledge or intelligence to try and change their lives. What's the saying..."therefore but the grace of God go I?"

I am talking specially of people who are mentally capable but simply do not wish to do anything that would be too much trouble or work, or do not wish to do anything difficult, or those that just want others to take care of them, when they are in fact capable themselves.

That is why I used the term weak-willed, a person who is weak-willed is not the same as a person who has a mental illness. They are a person who has the same potential as anyone else, but chooses not to use that potential.

I am sure all of us at one point or another has known that needy person, who really just wants everyone else to solve all their problems for them, because they don't want to put the effort into doing it themselves.

Spoken like someone who has either overcome a great deal with no help (or no help they can recognize) or like someone who has never had much to overcome. Strength may be your hubris. I read a thread about the correct way to use the word hubris last week and now I’m second guessing my usage here.

I will say this, one thing perhaps to my credit. I am one of those rare people who practice what they preach. I do hold myself to the same standards I hold others to. I judge myself as harshly as I judge others. I do not make excuses for myself. And when I do act in a way which I would condemn in others, I hold myself accountable.

And I am lucky that one of my closet friends is much of the same mind as me, so he does not enable me or validate me when I am acting a fool, he tells it to me straight without sugar coating.

He tells me you are acting like a victim, knock that crap off because you are better then that.

[Jozanny]

Dark, I am not really sure what you are reacting against. Is it complaining, or entitlement? I do not always agree with George Will, the conservative columnist, but I respect him for an independence of mind, and he has mocked the entitlement society, which he sees as a cancer spreading across the country--but self-reliance is not an end all and be all in itself, and that is what you seem to be suggesting. I know from my own personal narrative that it isn't, and I know from living in the inner city that it isn't. The forces of caste, in and of themselves, can be overwhelming, whether you look at how federalism helps the dynastic wealth of Warren Buffet, or simply reinforces the fear within the drug culture of a city like Baltimore, or Philly, where I live.

Yes, you can point to a life narrative like Obama's and see an astonishing success story, but Obama had a certain amount of exceptionalism that a child beholden to the public school system here where I live, doesn't.

I used to be a lot like you, trust me, but government made it nearly impossible for me to emerge on my own into the middle class. I had to lose my job so that the *state* would pay for me to get a personal attendant--and I put up with this program for ten years, under a good deal of duress, violated mentally and more rarely physically by a few of these helpers--and it took the death of my mother to tell my service provider to stuff it, at least for the time being.

But I don't think you've really seen enough to know what you mean--and the forces the play against any individual will when the community around that individual doesn't provide appropriate support. Choice is a small thing when you're a single mother on Walmart wages with three children to feed.

[Virgil]

Sometimes it looks like bad choices are rewarded and the transverse is that good choices are penalized.

Perhaps bad choices are not always rewarded but many times they are. But good choices are always penalized. And then they tell you you're not paying your fair share or that it's patriotoc to pay taxes. That burns me up.

He tells me you are acting like a victim, knock that crap off because you are better then that.

Hear hear!! There are victums in life through no fault of their own. But if you're healthy you have the responsibility to get your a** out into the world and work. I don't feel like paying for them.

[Dark Muse]

Dark, I am not really sure what you are reacting against. Is it complaining, or entitlement? I do not always agree with George Will, the conservative columnist, but I respect him for an independence of mind, and he has mocked the entitlement society, which he sees as a cancer spreading across the country--but self-reliance is not an end all and be all in itself, and that is what you seem to be suggesting. I know from my own personal narrative that it isn't, and I know from living in the inner city that it isn't. The forces of caste, in and of themselves, can be overwhelming, whether you look at how federalism helps the dynastic wealth of Warren Buffet, or simply reinforces the fear within the drug culture of a city like Baltimore, or Philly, where I live.

I am reacting to those that:

Spend most there time complaining about their problems instead of taking action, when in fact there are things they could do to try and improve their situation, but they find it is easier to just feed off of the sympathy of others. And they have found when they boo woo someone will come and hold there hand and tell them it is not their fault. So they do nothing, but still moan and gripe about it. Yet there are things they could actually do to make changes, they just think those options are too hard and don't want to make the effort or sacrifice.

And those who think there bad decisions should be rewarded. Or those that think they are entitled to something, when in fact they are not contributing anything, and they are fully capable of doing so. As well as those, who want someone else to be responsible for their own lack of common sense, and think they should have the right to sue someone else and deserve a fat settlement when in fact they are reasonable. (as in the McDonalds example I gave earlier. I buy junk food, and eat it of my own free will, but the company should be held accountable for the choices I made, because if they did not sell the food then I could not go and buy it. So it is not may fault)

I am also reacting against those that think the government should act as parents and who want to make more laws that are purely for the sake of protecting people from themselves, and anytime someone does something in which basic common sense would tell a person they ought not to do, someone wants to make a law. Instead of accepting the fact, that individual has to suffer the consequences of their deciding to act like an idiot.

In airports now one of the stupidest things, is because of the whole peanut allergy thing, some group complained about the peanuts on airplanes, and now, it actually has a warning label on the bag of peanuts, that says "may contain peanuts"

Now, isn't the fact that it is in fact a bag of peanuts, warning enough that it contains peanuts? Does there really need to be a warning label telling people that a bag of peanuts contains peanuts?

But because some ninny babies got together, they had to waste time and money with that pointless warning.