An expression of love? True love, Janine, never runs smooth - and once, long ago on Golgotha, even led to crucifixion.Originally Posted by Janine
An expression of love? True love, Janine, never runs smooth - and once, long ago on Golgotha, even led to crucifixion.
For certain, for this true love that Rogozhin has for Myshkin and for Nataysia does not run anyway smooth. Well, the thought crossed my mind that maybe it was like the kiss of Judas. Right after that scene Rogozhin attempts to stab Myshkin in the stairwell, and then is only saved, by Myshkin going into one of his fits. I think I have an idea of futher events to come and so we should judge why the crosses were exchanged at that time. I hope my sceptism is not correct and this was a true expression of love on the behalf of Rogozhin. I know that it was not instigated by Myshkin...and like I said, he was reluctant to take the other cross in exchange for his.
The knife and the picture over the doorway both are forshadowing of what will come; I am sure of it.
Gladys, how far along are you in the novel?
I am not feeling well - now it is a cold I contracted from my sister. I just got over a stomach problem and caught this darn cold. Anyway, I can't post that segment of text tonight but will try to tomorrow night - the one on the naive aspect of Myshkin.
"It's so mysterious, the land of tears."
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
I read 'The Idiot' before Christmas and have been rereading bits of it since, while deliberately avoiding commentaries. I stumbled upon the Forum Book Club a month ago and am currently reading Grass's 'The Tin Drum', Ibsen's 'Brand', and Sophocles 'King Oedipus'.
The picture over the doorway: "That picture! That picture!" cried Muishkin, struck by a sudden idea. "Why, a man's faith might be ruined by looking at that picture!"
Interesting, he pointed it in Demons and in Brothers Karamazov also. But not only Russia, the rest of the world also; although he didn't care much about others.
That's such a great quote.
But it means that world is filled with smart humans which is wrong...
Interesting. The end and Nastasya's death were obvious from the start; Prince pointed it several times, Ipolit did it also; like there were no other possibilities.
That happened to Dostoevsky in Switzerland, he liked it a lot.
He was in the train with Prince and Rogozhin.I could not clearly recall when this character, Lebedyev. I did recall when he was first introduced into the story. Can someone fill me in a little better on this character and when he first appeared? I don't want to lose time searching back into the text, since I want to progress with my reading, so I can comment more in this discussion group.
Execution - true fact from Dostoevsky's life. He was sentenced to death, but just before shooting, penalty was changed for 7 years in Siberia.Edit: I failed to mention that two parts in the story have also greatly fascinated me and I believe they directly relate. One was the part when the prince was talking about the execution, and the 'second' before the guillotine blade fell upon the victim. I thought that whole passage extremely deep and interesting and I have not been able to stop thinking about it since. I realised there is much meaning in that passage and felt it also fortold some future event or events.
Guillotine - Idiot was quite inspired with Jean Valjean; and something similar was described in Les Miserables.
Personal experiences; He suffered from epilepsy also.The other was when the prince would speak of that 'second', when all clarity seemed to come to him and his sense of the world was heightened...the 'second' before he would lapse into an epileptic fit. Also, I was wondering if this is an accurate description of what people do experience who have these seizures? How did the author come up with his description? Did he have first hand knowledge of such things or was it entirely fictional?
That's also from His life; He saw that picture in Switzerland, while he was writing Idiot.
Did Aglaya liked Prince because he was Poor Knight or she felt sorry for him like he did for Nastasya?
When Prince said ''The beauty will save the world!'', did he meant on beauty of soul or beauty of face?
To those who despise Nastasya, remember the story from The Bible about Maria Magdalena.
At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.
To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
If you need me urgent, send me a PM
'...after leaving the prince, the doctor [in Pavlofsk] said to Lebedev: "If all such people were put under restraint, there would be no one left for keepers."'As I understand the quote, “If we commit to asylums all those as sane as the prince, no one saner would remain on the planet to staff those asylums”.
Hi Bazarov,I don't quite get your meaning here. Could your further explain? I know you are directing this to islandclimber, but I want to grasp the meaning myself.
I am not sure I understand this or the quote, not exactly. Can you explain it clearer to me?That's such a great quote.
But it means that world is filled with smart humans which is wrong...
I thought that also even though I have not yet encountered this part in the book and we are both giving this away although probably I am the one most behind in my reading. I found it out when glancing at some online commentary but I felt this would be the outcome from the various clues in the story and the forshadowing. It is not hard to guess.Interesting. The end and Nastasya's death were obvious from the start; Prince pointed it several times, Ipolit did it also; like there were no other possibilities.
So interesting, Bazarov, to know of the actual events behind this story - great! I always get into that sort of biographical information. I would like to hear more about how the story directly came from incidents or occurances in Dostoevsky's life. This makes it so much more meaningful for me. I love books based on true events or stories or experiences. This makes it all so personal and so much more thought-provoking.That happened to Dostoevsky in Switzerland, he liked it a lot.
Thanks, Bazarov, Yes, Gladys, I think, pointed this out for me. I think maybe I will eventually go back and read that passage again. Trouble was I started the book and then layed it asside and picked it up later; I kind of forgot some details from the beginning.He was in the train with Prince and Rogozhin.
Unbelievable...but so 'believable', really....because of the 'vivid' way he has described that moment. Why was he sentenced? I want to hear more.Execution - true fact from Dostoevsky's life. He was sentenced to death, but just before shooting, penalty was changed for 7 years in Siberia.
Guillotine - Idiot was quite inspired with Jean Valjean; and something similar was described in Les Miserables.
That is curious about the guillotine and being related to Les Miserables...all the time he was talking about the death penalty issue I was thinking on a certain passage in Les Miserables....I believe the priest in the story was pondering the same issue and came up with a similar conclusion. I recall it standing out to me in the book when I read it, which is ages ago now. But that one particular scene I always vividly recalled - the portent of it.
Yes, by some online research I have just found this out. I read a number of things about his personal life online; however, don't know how I missed the execution part. I must go back and read more.Personal experiences; He suffered from epilepsy also.
Amazing. I suppose authors do get most of their ideas from real life occurances; I think this fact makes for a better novel and a deeper understanding.That's also from His life; He saw that picture in Switzerland, while he was writing Idiot.
I think she genuinely loves him in some way - not necessarily earthly and I don't think she quite understands it herself. He is so Christlike and so set appart from others that one would have to be drawn to him and his idealist thoughts and actions. He has that allure. I noticed that most who come into contact with Myshkin are altered somewhat after being with him, even for a short time. He transforms people and that can be true of the lowest human being. He seems to see the heavenly light that comes through in the princeDid Aglaya liked Prince because he was Poor Knight or she felt sorry for him like he did for Nastasya?
's being. Why then would Alagya be any different. She is quite taken by him but does not want to admit it. I could be wrong because I have not finished the book. It is just the feeling I have about her. In a way she does love him as Dulcina did to Don Quixote. I do think she sees him a the poor knight and she appreciates him inwardly, even though she is always calling him 'idiot'.
I am not sure; but his 'perception' of beauty, no doubt, is much different than anyone elses in the story. But, the fact does remain that the two main woman - Alagya and Nastaysia are actual physical beauties. I don't think he sees merely the surface of either woman though. I think this beauty is of the soul more than the face. Exterior beauty will not last and I think Myshkin would know this instinctively and still find beauty within. He sees them both being needful and broken, each in her own way.When Prince said ''The beauty will save the world!'', did he meant on beauty of soul or beauty of face?
To those who despise Nastasya, remember the story from The Bible about Maria Magdalena.
From the beginning, I thought of Mary Magdalene. However, it is actually a historical/theological falsity, that MM was a whore or a fallen woman. She had commited 'sin' but we all have. Scholars now debate about her past; not that much in actual scripture is actually known about her. Most definitely though, Dostovesky is tapping into this idea of Magdalene being a fallen woman, in need of being saved by Christ, or a 'Christ-like' figure of compassion, and forgiveness. Myshkin does embody that person and so I am sure D was thinking of her when he wrote the role of Nataysia.
Last edited by Janine; 10-21-2008 at 08:42 PM.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Finish the book, please
Thank you Gladys.I am not sure I understand this or the quote, not exactly. Can you explain it clearer to me?
I will, I promise. I have to translate a bit from my books, couldn't find it online. But, in originally, story was imagined like something totally different.So interesting, Bazarov, to know of the actual events behind this story - great! I always get into that sort of biographical information. I would like to hear more about how the story directly came from incidents or occurances in Dostoevsky's life. This makes it so much more meaningful for me. I love books based on true events or stories or experiences. This makes it all so personal and so much more thought-provoking.
Unbelievable...but so 'believable', really....because of the 'vivid' way he has described that moment. Why was he sentenced? I want to hear more.
That is curious about the guillotine and being related to Les Miserables...all the time he was talking about the death penalty issue I was thinking on a certain passage in Les Miserables....I believe the priest in the story was pondering the same issue and came up with a similar conclusion. I recall it standing out to me in the book when I read it, which is ages ago now. But that one particular scene I always vividly recalled - the portent of it.
Yes, yes; bishop Myriel said it! It also crossed my mind immediately while reading. Great memory, Janine! Or just a great book...
From wikipedia:Yes, by some online research I have just found this out. I read a number of things about his personal life online; however, don't know how I missed the execution part. I must go back and read more.
I think this 4 years is only how much he spend there, not for how long he was sentenced.Dostoevsky was arrested and imprisoned on April 23, 1849 for being a part of the liberal intellectual group, the Petrashevsky Circle. Tsar Nicholas I after seeing the Revolutions of 1848 in Europe was harsh on any sort of underground organization which he felt could put autocracy into jeopardy. On November 16 that year Dostoevsky, along with the other members of the Petrashevsky Circle, was sentenced to death. After a mock execution, in which he and other members of the group stood outside in freezing weather waiting to be shot by a firing squad, Dostoevsky's sentence was commuted to four years of exile with hard labor at a katorga prison camp in Omsk, Siberia. Dostoevsky described later to his brother the sufferings he went through as the years in which he was "shut up in a coffin."
I remember Don adored Dulcinea, but I can't remember she liked himIt is just the feeling I have about her. In a way she does love him as Dulcina did to Don Quixote. I do think she sees him a the poor knight and she appreciates him inwardly, even though she is always calling him 'idiot'.
But why did he then said that ''beauty like that could change the world'' after seeing Nastasya's photo for the first time? Considering we think that soul was more important to him.I am not sure; but his 'perception' of beauty, no doubt, is much different than anyone elses in the story. But, the fact does remain that the two main woman - Alagya and Nastaysia are actual physical beauties. I don't think he sees merely the surface of either woman though. I think this beauty is of the soul more than the face. Exterior beauty will not last and I think Myshkin would know this instinctively and still find beauty within. He sees them both being needful and broken, each in her own way.
At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.
To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
If you need me urgent, send me a PM
I finally finished the bookThe ending turned out pretty interesting
I found a lot of notes in the end of the edition I am using, so I'll try to check them out as soon as possible and post them if I find something interesting and useful.
Currently reading:
The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay by Michael Chabon
Alexei, I am glad you finished the book. Great that you have notes at the end; wish my edition had some. If you post, please put 'SPOILER' before you post, if you tell the ending. I don't want to know too much about that yet. I am sorry but I have 200 pages left to read. It could not be helped. I was sick all month and now I have a cold on top of that.I finally finished the book
I am doing my best to finish the book, Baz...really I am.
But one night I tried to read and felt too ill and had to keep it to one chapter. I love this book though and am anxious to move along to the ending now.
I will answer your post to my remarks later tonight or tomorrow, Bazarov; sorry for the delay...your post was most gratefully appreciated and I like hearing about D's past and life. I would answer it now, but I don't have the time and I wished to quote a few things.
Last edited by Janine; 10-21-2008 at 08:48 PM.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Oh, so true!
Nastasya Filippovna and Mary Magdalene seem to have little in common, though there is a candidate for Mary, in the ending.
Did you find evidence hard to come by, Janine?
The ending answers that question.
For anyone interested in my take on the ending:
I think it is true also...because someone, who is intuitive and sensitive as Myshkin, would see more than the average person would see within the concept of beauty. For instance, when he first views the portrait of Nataysia, his perception is not one of only physical beauty; in fact it is quite clear it is much different than that of Ganya and the General. What seems to attract him even more, is this 'certain something' in the eyes or the face; even he can't put his finger on whatever it is that draws him to the photo. I almost see this scene, similar to one gazing on the enigmatic Mona Lisa; although in this portrait, the sadness/tragedy/perhaps 'madness' is closer to what Myshkin sees; unlike the myterious expression, as in the Mona Lisa painting. In the beginning, Totsy also noticed this quality in the young Nataysia. It seemed to appear, when she was in her teen years, didn't it? Or at least, I think that is when it surfaced?
Perhaps one could say her look is mysterious to some, but Myskhin sees great tragedy in her eyes. He is the more perceptive one. Myshkin sees truth.
This is very true indeed. I kept thinking along the way that someone would appear that represents Mary Magdalene and so it is interesting to know this may happen near the end.Nastasya Filippovna and Mary Magdalene seem to have little in common, though there is a candidate for Mary, in the ending.
Actually, yes, I am finding it difficult to locate again; but I am sure it is there. I just tried to locate it again in my book; I recall it on the right side page, even about 3/4 down, but I can't recall where I saw it - near middle of book or closer the first 1/3 - in fact, the words 'naive', and even 'naivete' are written in italics, so they should stand out. I know I saw it and now I am a bit frustrated, not being able to locate this exact text. I know it is a fairly long section of descriptive text, in which the author is reflecting on Myshkin. I should have marked that text, when I first read it; it stood out to me because, all along, I kept questioning myself, as to whether Myshkin was truly 'naive' or we got that impression from the other characters in the book. This revealed to me the direct thoughts of the author on that aspect of Myshkin. I will keep looking for it and hope I come across it soon, so that I can post some of that passage.Did you find evidence hard to come by, Janine?
Oh, interesting, can't wait now to get there. Sorry I am behind everyone else. Will read more tonight and make good headway, I hope. I should be done soon.The ending answers that question.
[quote]For anyone interested in my take on the ending: [quote]
Oh, that was so nice of you and considerate, so I don't have the ending spoiled for me. One significant event I did find out prematurely through reading a character list online. I was annoyed they gave that key part away before I got to it. I like to maintain a bit of suspense in this type novel.Gladys,
Last edited by Janine; 10-21-2008 at 09:15 PM.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Ok, OK...I will..... sorry to hold everyone up. I am working on it but I have been slow since I was ill and even feel asleep one night only after achieving a few pages. I will push tonight to read it and probably get close to the ending.Finish the book, please
That would be great. I just love to hear the biographical information that relates to the novels. Whatever you find on this book would add greatly to this discussion. In the D.H.Lawrence thread I try to pull in things from outside sources in relation to the short stories - I think this adds greatly to ones understanding of a novel or a short story. Afterall the author does project his own life on his work; this can't be helped. It makes the work richer, in my opinion.I will, I promise. I have to translate a bit from my books, couldn't find it online. But, in originally, story was imagined like something totally different.
So it crossed your mind, also? How interesting. I loved the book LM - absolutely, it was probably the greatest book I ever read. I read the long translation of 5 full books; my friend happened to own it; was from her husband's parents; she very generously loaned it to me.Yes, yes; bishop Myriel said it! It also crossed my mind immediately while reading. Great memory, Janine! Or just a great book...
I actually shocked myself, Bazaro... I didn't know I had such a keen memory...but then again when a passage in a book truly impresses me, I tend to recall the portend of it years later. That passage was very thought-provoking, so that I have often recalled this part throughout my life.
Thanks for the wikipedia article - very helpful! Sad though....
Wow, so you think he was probably sentenced for even longer?I think this 4 years is only how much he spend there, not for how long he was sentenced.
True, but I thought, even though she fought it, she underneath did love him. I thought that she basically did not feel worthy of his love. In someways it is the same or similar in this novel since Dulcina called Don a fool all the time.....fool, idiot...pretty much the same and both Don and Myshkin are 'idealists'.I remember Don adored Dulcinea, but I can't remember she liked him
Well, in a way, her beauty does change people, but not necessarily for the good. I think the prince sees her at first, as having the kind of beauty that is powerful and could indeed change the world - such as a Cleopatra type beauty - rare and powerful, alluring, yet dangerous. In Nayashia's case she could change the world for good or for evil, in Myshkin's eyes - remember he is an idealist. She had this potennial, but I still contend that it was not just the physical features that lead him to this conclusion; rather this raw power that he feels exists in the eyes or the face in the portrait. Powerful women do often rule the world. Didn't Helen of Troy' beauty result in a huge army (nation) to fight major battles, over that beauty?But why did he then said that ''beauty like that could change the world'' after seeing Nastasya's photo for the first time? Considering we think that soul was more important to him.
Last edited by Janine; 10-21-2008 at 09:22 PM.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
I presume all are aware that an on-line version of 'The Idiot' is available from this site at:
I may have found your passage on the prince's naivete - the only time the narrator so describes the prince. Much later, the narrator also writes, 'Aglaya, beside herself with naive amazement' - the only other instance in the novel.
In Chapter 29, we find:
The prince blushed and broke off, without finishing what he meant to say.
In spite of his shyness and agitation, he could not help being greatly interested in the conversation. A special characteristic of his was the naive candour with which he always listened to arguments which interested him, and with which he answered any questions put to him on the subject at issue. In the very expression of his face this naivete was unmistakably evident, this disbelief in the insincerity of others, and unsuspecting disregard of irony or humour in their words.
But though Evgenie Pavlovitch had put his questions to the prince with no other purpose but to enjoy the joke of his simple-minded seriousness, yet now, at his answer, he was surprised into some seriousness himself, and looked gravely at Muishkin as though he had not expected that sort of answer at all.
"Why, how strange!" he ejaculated. "You didn't answer me seriously, surely, did you?"
"Did not you ask me the question seriously" inquired the prince, in amazement.
Everybody laughed.
Not only is this passage far from straight forward, but also involves Evgenie Pavlovitch, who intrigues me still.
Last edited by Gladys; 10-06-2008 at 09:08 PM.
Good work, Gladys, what would we do without you? I am not sure this was the exact passages, but it fits, doesn't it? I thought when I read it that there was no dialogue near the words, but my memory may be failing me. Now what part of the plot did this crop up in? Fill me in on what plot elements lead up to this part, if you can?
In my translation, the names are slightly altered, which is a little confusing, in this discussion for me. For instance, he is Yevgeny Pavlovitch in my book. He also intrigues me. I can't recall when he was first introduced or exactly who he is, or what his story is. I only know he was pursuing Aglaya for her hand. In my book she is referred to as Aglaia; see what I mean? Russian novels can be a bit confusing to read and discuss, with all the name changes and nicknames.
Last edited by Janine; 10-21-2008 at 09:25 PM.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Evgenie Pavlovitch's feigned attack on 'Russian liberalism' followed Lizabetha Prokofievna's:
Thank goodness, he's an idiot, and a friend of the house! Surely Aglaya hasn't fallen in love with such a gaby! What an idea! Pfu! we ought all to be put under glass cases--myself first of all--and be shown off as curiosities, at ten copecks a peep!
Last edited by Gladys; 10-07-2008 at 03:50 AM.
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