D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Virgil]

Ok, I agree with most of what you said here but I think you left out one vital part of that line:
"They had never lived; his life, his will had always been upon them and contained them. They were only half-individuals."

Doesn't this say to you, that the father was willful at one time and exerted his will over his children? Now he may be broken and withdrawn, and even docile, and under their control and 'will'; but this line suggests to me that it was not always that way for this family. Could it be, that now the roles are somewhat reversed?

No question, that is a very important sentence at the end there. I didn't touch on it because i don't know how to explain it. The concept of "will" is very oimportant in Lawrentian thought, and is almost always a negative. Flowers have no will, that is Lawrence's ideal. Apparently the father's will is what has caused the dysfunctionality. But we don't really see it in the story and is almost a last minute add on. If I wqere to speculate, I would guess that the father's will to have a properous home is at the root cause of the dysfunctionality.

The very ruin of him was like a lodestone that held them in its control.

I also think the word 'lodestone' is an interesting word and used well here. I am going now to look up the exact meaning of that word.

lode·stone /ˈloʊdˌstoʊn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lohd-stohn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a variety of magnetite that possesses magnetic polarity and attracts iron.
2. a piece of this serving as a magnet.
3. something that attracts strongly.

I guess Lawrence means it as an attracting force. It's symbolic for his will I think.

Yes, the last part after the day of the Christening, reverses everything and seems to bring this feeling of hope. Can it be that the new life of the baby is related to the flowers of the earth and this child, brought out by his Christening, also brings new hope?

Not sure about bringing hope. Perhaps for the father. The daughters "shrink" from it. I think the father has reached an enlightenment, almost a transfiguration, if you will. But not the daughters.

[Janine]

No question, that is a very important sentence at the end there. I didn't touch on it because i don't know how to explain it. The concept of "will" is very oimportant in Lawrentian thought, and is almost always a negative. Flowers have no will, that is Lawrence's ideal. Apparently the father's will is what has caused the dysfunctionality. But we don't really see it in the story and is almost a last minute add on. If I wqere to speculate, I would guess that the father's will to have a properous home is at the root cause of the dysfunctionality.

Yes, I was thinking about the 'will' and how often that appears in Lawrence's writing. I think you were the first to point that out to me and the group. It really does make more sense to me now. Often in this type of family unit, with 3 woman and one(?) brother and a father - the father may be prominent at one time and exert his will over them; say when they were children and under his rule. Even now the youngest - the son - is afraid of him. The daughters have outgrown that fear, with the appearance of this man's illness, into more of a person needing to be watched over and protected. The roles have reversed. The daughters now treat him as though they are his caretakers, even his mother. This is not so unusual in families where older adults become ill or have a degnerative condition. Often too it is necessary; you saw how he burned himself. If left on his own entirely he could cause himself more harm perhaps. The fact that they have a rough manner and seem angry, in their treatment of him, also speaks to me. It says that they are feel deep 'resentful' now that they have his care on their hands. This family does not seem to have much compassion for one another.

I guess Lawrence means it as an attracting force. It's symbolic for his will I think.

Oh, thanks for looking that up. I forgot myself and did not venture to do so last night. I got distracted with other things. Yes, I would think that is what he meant - the attracting force being his 'will'. In someways by his passionate speech after the Christening he was exerting his 'will' upon them. All of them shrank and were embarrassed concerning that speech.

Not sure about bringing hope. Perhaps for the father. The daughters "shrink" from it. I think the father has reached an enlightenment, almost a transfiguration, if you will. But not the daughters.

I agree and I think that is basically what I meant. Still the tone at the end was more of one of 'hope' than dispair, especially compared to his former speech.

[Janine]

Where is everyone??? I wanted to finish up this story soon. It is already October. Helloooooo, anybody there?

[Dark Muse]

Hey, I am still here, I just got a little behind

[Janine]

Hey, I am still here, I just got a little behind

Well, Dark Muse, you are always here somewhere.....usually when I post a call you do respond..thanks for that. I am wondering where Virgil ran off to. If I say his name he might also arrive and comment on what I wrote last; I guess mostly that post was directed at his comments.

I am anxious now to put this story to rest. Then, I will periodically, post interesting things about Lawrence, in general, to keep this thread active; that is until we return in November for a brand new story. I have to think about what that one will be; but it should not be difficult, since I have read many more SS's that we still have not discussed. Lawrence wrote a ton of stories, so it is not hard to find a good one or one of interest.

[Dark Muse]

Hehe yes, I usually am around somewhere

[Janine]

Hehe yes, I usually am around somewhere

Yes, and how many social groups have you started now and how many new threads recently?

[Dark Muse]

LOL, I know, far too many.

[Janine]

LOL, I know, far too many.

No wonder you are behind in here....they call it distracted....

[Dark Muse]

LOL, no acutally the reason I got behind is I am back in school now, and you and Virgil got ahead of me one of the days, while I was in class. When I got home, there was a ton of new posts here LOL.

The social groups I usually just pop in on when I am sitting here without anything else going on.

[Virgil]

I don't have anything more to say on the story. If there is a comment that striks me one way or the other by someone else I may repsond to it. Otherwise I feel we have done the story.

[Janine]

So Virgil, does that mean you do agree with my post below (was from above)?

Yes, I was thinking about the 'will' and how often that appears in Lawrence's writing. I think you were the first to point that out to me and the group. It really does make more sense to me now. Often in this type of family unit, with 3 woman and one(?) brother and a father - the father may be prominent at one time and exert his will over them; say when they were children and under his rule. Even now the youngest - the son - is afraid of him. The daughters have outgrown that fear, with the appearance of this man's illness, into more of a person needing to be watched over and protected. The roles have reversed. The daughters now treat him as though they are his caretakers, even his mother. This is not so unusual in families where older adults become ill or have a degnerative condition. Often too it is necessary; you saw how he burned himself. If left on his own entirely he could cause himself more harm perhaps. The fact that they have a rough manner and seem angry, in their treatment of him, also speaks to me. It says that they are feel deep 'resentful' now that they have his care on their hands. This family does not seem to have much compassion for one another.

Basically I was waiting for your response on this one thought of mine.

[Virgil]

I guess I would agree with most of that. You speculate a little more than I feel comfortable. I prefer to only go on what the author shows us. But everything you say is possible.

[Dark Muse]

Yes I agree with you there Virgil I usually always try to just stick with what is acutally shown within the story

[Janine]

Oh good, glad that you both responded and I will agree with you; I was indeed speculating somewhat. I guess I like to make my own conclusions; my imagination runs away with me sometimes.

Soooo - I suppose now we are officially on break for the month. Please check in from time to time, since I will post some filler material about Lawrence that should interest you. This has been a great group with many good discussions. I hope soon, when we resume in November, it will continue as enthusiastically.

Hey, everyone, when we reach 3000 posts we will have to have a cake!