Poe Short Story Discussion Group

[LC_Lancer]

Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I am not entirely convinved of this. Though as you know I am not completely sold on the idea that Ligeia, litteraly does take over Rowena's body at the end. Supposing that is what happend, if you look at the end, he is not exzactly overjoyed when he discovers what has happend. The end of the story does not seem to indicate that he completely embraces the idea that she comes back to him from beyond the grave.

I disagree. I am convinced.

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
And now slowly opened the eyes of the figure which stood before me. "Here then, at least," I shrieked aloud, "can I never --can I never be mistaken --these are the full, and the black, and the wild eyes --of my lost love --of the lady --of the LADY LIGEIA.

We cannot fully trust what he is seeing, but three words indicated to me that he is accepting to this turn of events.

[Dark Muse]

Persoanlly I got the impression more of horror at the sight, than one of acceptence.

[Dark Muse]

How poignant, then, must have been the grief with which, after some years, I beheld my well-grounded expectations take wings to themselves and fly away!

I found this line to be interesting. I think the use of "flight" and "wings" are deliberate here. Particularly when connected to his grief, and the death of Ligeia, reading this I could not help but think of an angel, or a dove.

Without Ligeia I was but as a child groping benighted

This is an interesting contrast. At first we have discussed how he says he is like a child under the tutelage of Ligeia, and now here, again he says he is like a child in the absence of Ligeia

Her presence, her readings alone, rendered vividly luminous the many mysteries of the transcendentalism in which we were immersed.

Here Poe deliberately suggests the idea of "transcendence" to the reader with this reference of their study of transcendentalism.

Wanting the radiant lustre of her eyes, letters, lambent and golden, grew duller than Saturnian lead.

I am sure you will recall, at the very start of our discussion I made the suggestion that Ligeia, never truly existed, that she was a Phantom to start with, and that Rowena was a sacrifice to conjure Ligeia into the living flesh, and I said that this story is riddled with suggestions of the occult and alchemy.

Here is what I think could be taken as an allusion to Alchemy within this story, coupled with the above idea of transcendence. Both gold and lead were important metals in the practice of Alchemy, and particularly the mention of Saturnian lead. In Alchemy Saturn was associated with the metal of lead.

And now those eyes shone less and less frequently upon the pages over which I pored. Ligeia grew ill. The wild eyes blazed with a too --too glorious effulgence; the pale fingers became of the transparent waxen hue of the grave, and the blue veins upon the lofty forehead swelled and sank impetuously with the tides of the gentle emotion.

Here we seen the transformation of Ligeia's beauty as she dies. Many of the very same features he first told us about when describing her beauty, her forehead, her eyes, her skin, he now refers back to in their change as she grows ill.

I saw that she must die --and I struggled desperately in spirit with the grim Azrael. And the struggles of the passionate wife were, to my astonishment, even more energetic than my own. There had been much in her stern nature to impress me with the belief that, to her, death would have come without its terrors; --but not so. Words are impotent to convey any just idea of the fierceness of resistance with which she wrestled with the Shadow.

This reflects back to the idea he suggested to us earlier about the will to live, and how death may be defeated by such a means.

I groaned in anguish at the pitiable spectacle. would have soothed --I would have reasoned; but, in the intensity of her wild desire for life, --for life --but for life --solace and reason were the uttermost folly.

I think this really shows the desperation. I love the use of the repetition "for life" it is interesting, the words chosen to be repeated within this story, all have a very chant like feeling to them.

Her voice grew more gentle --grew more low --yet I would not wish to dwell upon the wild meaning of the quietly uttered words. My brain reeled as I hearkened entranced, to a melody more than mortal --to assumptions and aspirations which mortality had never before known.

This is another curious mention of her voice, and its musical quality which has been spoken of a few times within the story, and touches back to the very root of her name.

[LC_Lancer]

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
And now slowly opened the eyes of the figure which stood before me. "Here then, at least," I shrieked aloud, "can I never --can I never be mistaken --these are the full, and the black, and the wild eyes --of my lost love --of the lady --of the LADY LIGEIA.

Originally Posted by LC_Lancer on 9/22/08, 05:22 PM We cannot fully trust what he is seeing, but three words indicated to me that he is accepting to this turn of events.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 05:47 PM
Persoanlly I got the impression more of horror at the sight, than one of acceptence.

Unfortunately, the ‘horror’ and ‘excitement’ both read the same. Even taking Poe’s own word of ‘shrieked’ does not offer any insight because people ‘shriek’ in excitement and horror (see Schoolhouse Rock “Interjections” for examples). The narrator stutters, but again people stutter in excitement and horror. But I will wait until we get to the end for more.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
How poignant, then, must have been the grief with which, after some years, I beheld my well-grounded expectations take wings to themselves and fly away!

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 06:50 PM
I found this line to be interesting. I think the use of "flight" and "wings" are deliberate here. Particularly when connected to his grief, and the death of Ligeia, reading this I could not help but think of an angel, or a dove.”

I agree with the ‘deliberate’ placing of the line. I like this line and it also piqued my interest. I, also, saw it leave and fly away ‘like a dove’ as he came to the last stage of grief. However it took him several years to get to that point. I cannot imagine loosing a spouse, especially one that I cared about and felt like a ‘child’ around.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
Without Ligeia I was but as a child groping benighted

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 06:50 PM
This is an interesting contrast. At first we have discussed how he says he is like a child under the tutelage of Ligeia, and now here, again he says he is like a child in the absence of Ligeia”

He used the term “benighted”. He said he felt like a child in the dark feeling his way. I interpreted it to mean he was looking for a new direction in his life: a life without Ligeia. However the child-like feelings have not changed. He felt like a child with her and even more like a child without her!
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
Her presence, her readings alone, rendered vividly luminous the many mysteries of the transcendentalism in which we were immersed.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 06:50 PM
Here Poe deliberately suggests the idea of "transcendence" to the reader with this reference of their study of transcendentalism.”

It also could be a reference to his wish that she would continue on (or even return) through what she has learned.
_____

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
Wanting the radiant lustre of her eyes, letters, lambent and golden, grew duller than Saturnian lead.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 06:50 PM
I am sure you will recall, at the very start of our discussion I made the suggestion that Ligeia, never truly existed, that she was a Phantom to start with, and that Rowena was a sacrifice to conjure Ligeia into the living flesh, and I said that this story is riddled with suggestions of the occult and alchemy.”

There are several passages that would support your conclusion and just as many that support the opposite view. I believe that Ligeia was real and she loved him. I think the ending has a supernatural twist if the reader starts with the premise that she is alive then actually dies. However, it would be a very unique supernatural ending it she was a ghost in the beginning of the story, but then we would have to question, not only the narrative, but also his sanity.
I think this whole sentence it curious. There is not a subject. For argument sake, let’s presume the subject is 'the narrator'. Why did you use the word ‘wanting’? Did you want her eyes to grow dull? If so, then why did he want her to die? Since this is the beginning of the section as she gets sick, there is only one explanation that I see, he wrote the line as foreshadow since he already knew she returned. As a teacher, I would indicate to my student that the beginning of the sentence does not match the end of the sentence.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 06:50 PM
Here is what I think could be taken as an allusion to Alchemy within this story, coupled with the above idea of transcendence. Both gold and lead were important metals in the practice of Alchemy, and particularly the mention of Saturnian lead. In Alchemy Saturn was associated with the metal of lead.

I disagree. Ok, it could be taken as a reference to Alchemy, but I think it is a simile. He was comparing her eyes that were bright and full of life earlier, then her eyes were dull and lifeless as she got sick.
____

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
And now those eyes shone less and less frequently upon the pages over which I pored. Ligeia grew ill. The wild eyes blazed with a too --too glorious effulgence; the pale fingers became of the transparent waxen hue of the grave, and the blue veins upon the lofty forehead swelled and sank impetuously with the tides of the gentle emotion.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 06:50 PM
Here we seen the transformation of Ligeia's beauty as she dies. Many of the very same features he first told us about when describing her beauty, her forehead, her eyes, her skin, he now refers back to in their change as she grows ill.

The writer’s ability to describe things we have seen (in person or heard second hand) is the basis for their craft.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
I saw that she must die --and I struggled desperately in spirit with the grim Azrael. And the struggles of the passionate wife were, to my astonishment, even more energetic than my own. ... Words are impotent to convey any just idea of the fierceness of resistance with which she wrestled with the Shadow.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 06:50 PM
This reflects back to the idea he suggested to us earlier about the will to live, and how death may be defeated by such a means.

I agree. I think he is telling us that she is resisting changing plains of existence as well as letting us know that he is convinced that her mind will not be enough to stop it.
____

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
I groaned in anguish at the pitiable spectacle. would have soothed --I would have reasoned; but, in the intensity of her wild desire for life, --for life --but for life --solace and reason were the uttermost folly.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 06:50 PM
I think this really shows the desperation. I love the use of the repetition "for life" it is interesting, the words chosen to be repeated within this story, all have a very chant like feeling to them.

It also could just show us that he is stuck with the next word to write to show us his deep feelings interfere with the writing process.
___

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
Her voice grew more gentle --grew more low --yet I would not wish to dwell upon the wild meaning of the quietly uttered words.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 06:50 PM
This is another curious mention of her voice, and its musical quality which has been spoken of a few times within the story,...

Ok I can see that, especially when he said that he did not want to think about what she was saying. That could mean he did not understand the language or the words she was saying or he just did not want to think about what she was doing.
This sentence also indicated that she was weakening with the illness. The illness is not mentioned by name, but it can deduce that it took time for her to die. If you take the stand of Ligeia being a ghost, these sentences could be interpreted as she is losing her grip on this world and by ‘death’ the narrator is telling us she is ‘stepping into the light’. I am not in that category. I think she is dying and the narrator is lamenting things to return back to way it was. I think the narrator hates the idea of her being ill and taking care of her.
___

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe.
My brain reeled as I hearkened entranced, to a melody more than mortal --to assumptions and aspirations which mortality had never before known.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/22/08, 06:50 PM
… touches back to the very root of her name.

And we have seen in movies where they indicate that something supernatural is happening by adding a musical quality to the actor’s/actress’ voice, including the Sirens, banshees, and ghosts. Another foreshadow, maybe?

[Dark Muse]

Unfortunately, the ‘horror’ and ‘excitement’ both read the same. Even taking Poe’s own word of ‘shrieked’ does not offer any insight because people ‘shriek’ in excitement and horror (see Schoolhouse Rock “Interjections” for examples). The narrator stutters, but again people stutter in excitement and horror. But I will wait until we get to the end for more.

Yes, that is true, one could easily interepet it to be either way.

There are several passages that would support your conclusion and just as many that support the opposite view. I believe that Ligeia was real and she loved him. I think the ending has a supernatural twist if the reader starts with the premise that she is alive then actually dies. However, it would be a very unique supernatural ending it she was a ghost in the beginning of the story, but then we would have to question, not only the narrative, but also his sanity.

I think we are intended to question the narrative in the story though. The very begining of the story when he speaks of his feeble memory, right away suggests to the reader that we are dealing with an unreliable narrator. We are not meant to simply take all he relates to us at complete face vaule.

I think this whole sentence it curious. There is not a subject. For argument sake, let’s presume the subject is 'the narrator'. Why did you use the word ‘wanting’? Did you want her eyes to grow dull? If so, then why did he want her to die? Since this is the beginning of the section as she gets sick, there is only one explanation that I see, he wrote the line as foreshadow since he already knew she returned. As a teacher, I would indicate to my student that the beginning of the sentence does not match the end of the sentence.[/b]

I do not interpet it in that way. It does not say to me that he wants her eyes to grow dull.

Wanting the radiant lustre of her eyes

Here it says, he wants the radient lustre in her eyes. I take it to mean, that he saw her eyes growing dull, and he wished they would return to the way they were before.

I disagree. Ok, it could be taken as a reference to Alchemy, but I think it is a simile. He was comparing her eyes that were bright and full of life earlier, then her eyes were dull and lifeless as she got sick.

If it was his intent to only compare her eyes to how they use to be, compared to how they have become. Than why would he spicify "Saturnian lead" instead of just saying lead, as Saturnian lead is speically Alchemical Lead. Saturnian lead is specifically Alchemical Lead. And why use the word "golden" which has a direct link to Alchemy, to talk of her eyes, which we know are dark in color, if he did not have a double meaning? There are other ways he could have spoken of her eyes without those words, to get the same meaning acorss.

[LC_Lancer]

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 9/23/08, 03:15 PM
I think we are intended to question the narrative in the story though. The very begining of the story when he speaks of his feeble memory, right away suggests to the reader that we are dealing with an unreliable narrator. We are not meant to simply take all he relates to us at complete face vaule.

If you take the narrative at ‘complete face value’, then the ending is very supernatural. I like the “feeble memory” account of the story better than saying the entire story was an “opium dream” as suggested in previous posts. Each reader will have to take his/her own judgment.
I agree with you I think we are to question him as a narrator, but some truths (at least what he perceived to be true) are in the story. The narrator still had to be sane, sober, and upright long enough to write it down. Stress has a way of clearing the mind for some and fogging it for others.
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Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 9/23/08, 03:15 PM
It does not say to me that he wants her eyes to grow dull.

I agree. I could not see why he wanted her to die. The narrator did say, “I saw that she must die --and I struggled desperately in spirit with the grim Azrael.” Maybe he wanted her pain to be over. Maybe he saw she was not improving.
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from Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
"Wanting the radiant lustre of her eyes…"

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 9/23/08, 03:15 PM
Here it says, he wants the radient lustre in her eyes. I take it to mean, that he saw her eyes growing dull, and he wished they would return to the way they were before.

Yes, you are right. I did not read it as a fan. I read it as a teacher.

But the more I think of it, there is a simple explanation to why the editor did not change it. But it is a practical solution to a timeless production problem.


It fit on the page. Editors and publishers like each line to end at the same point. That is why in books there are word are chop-ped at the end of a line. In 1838, the line had an incorrect number of characters so it had to be shortened or changed to fit.
____

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 9/23/08, 03:15 PM
If it was his intent to only compare her eyes to how they use to be, compared to how they have become. Than why would he spicify "Saturnian lead" instead of just saying lead, as Saturnian lead is speically Alchemical Lead. Saturnian lead is specifically Alchemical Lead. And why use the word "golden" which has a direct link to Alchemy, to talk of her eyes, which we know are dark in color, if he did not have a double meaning? There are other ways he could have spoken of her eyes without those words, to get the same meaning acorss.

I indicated that “it could be taken as a reference to Alchemy”, but the simile reason to use those words at that moment still fits and it could have been a double meaning in those words.

Your question is a valid one: why use the word "golden" …if he did not have a double meaning? I can think of 5 reasons he might not have used it as something different than an Alchemy reference.

Initially, I must disagree with on one comment: Gold is not dark in color. It is radiant, yellow or white, light, lambent, and to him the part he misses the most.

*Since eyes themselves are not ‘golden’, the mentioning of ‘golden’ here could have been his feelings for her eyes when they were alive and well.

*However, there are streaks of gold-like color in some people eyes, maybe the narrator was telling us that Ligeia had these streaks and they disappeared when she became ill.

*Also, since he mentioned metaphysical investigation the previous paragraph, the terms in question could have been placed there to connect Ligeia’s and the narrator’s learning to their surroundings.

*He might have used the Saturnian lead’s color because it was a certain color in her eyes that he saw. He wanted the reader to know the color of her eyes were that particular color after she became ill.

*Poe could have meant it as a literary device. He was using irony and paradox to reinforce his feelings. He used direct language and the references are from of the narrator’s studies.

[Dark Muse]

The narrator still had to be sane, sober, and upright long enough to write it down. Stress has a way of clearing the mind for some and fogging it for others.]

If you have read anything else by Poe, you should know, that his narrators, do not always have to be "sane" to reccount thier tales. Sanity is not a requirment for being able to write a fantastic, and possibly supernatural tale.

I agree. I could not see why he wanted her to die. The narrator did say, “I saw that she must die --and I struggled desperately in spirit with the grim Azrael.” Maybe he wanted her pain to be over. Maybe he saw she was not improving. ]

By saying she must die, I think he is simply saying that he saw that nothing was going to save her. Ulitmately everyone must die at somepoint. I think he just means that she cannot be cured or healed.

I indicated that “it could be taken as a reference to Alchemy”, but the simile reason to use those words at that moment still fits and it could have been a double meaning in those words.

Your question is a valid one: why use the word "golden" …if he did not have a double meaning? [b]I can think of 5 reasons he might not have used it as something different than an Alchemy reference.

This is not the only possible allusion to Alchmey in the story, this is just one instance, as we go along I can point out others.

Initially, I must disagree with on one comment: Gold is not dark in color. It is radiant, yellow or white, light, lambent, and to him the part he misses the most.

You have misread what I said. I never said Gold was dark, I said the eyes of Ligeia were dark, so why than did he use the word gold to describe them, unless he wished to suggest something more to the reader than just a comparrison the eyes of Ligeia.

He might have used the Saturnian lead’s color because it was a certain color in her eyes that he saw. He wanted the reader to know the color of her eyes were that particular color after she became ill..

He could have just as easily used the word lead, without adding the Saturnian part to it. I cannot believe he would have made that specific of a reference, coupled with a reference to gold, if Alchemy was not at least remotely on his mind when he wrote this. It is too much of a coincidence for a writer like Poe. I can only conclude that it was indeed intended.

[Dark Muse]

You may still post on what has been said above, but I am going to post the next segment of text.

That she loved me I should not have doubted; and I might have been easily aware that, in a bosom such as hers, love would have reigned no ordinary passion. But in death only, was I fully impressed with the strength of her affection. For long hours, detaining my hand, would she pour out before me the overflowing of a heart whose more than passionate devotion amounted to idolatry. How had I deserved to be so blessed by such confessions? --how had I deserved to be so cursed with the removal of my beloved in the hour of her making them, But upon this subject I cannot bear to dilate. Let me say only, that in Ligeia's more than womanly abandonment to a love, alas! all unmerited, all unworthily bestowed, I at length recognized the principle of her longing with so wildly earnest a desire for the life which was now fleeing so rapidly away. It is this wild longing --it is this eager vehemence of desire for life --but for life --that I have no power to portray --no utterance capable of expressing.

At high noon of the night in which she departed, beckoning me, peremptorily, to her side, she bade me repeat certain verses composed by herself not many days before. I obeyed her. --They were these:

Lo! 'tis a gala night
Within the lonesome latter years!
An angel throng, bewinged, bedight
In veils, and drowned in tears,
Sit in a theatre, to see
A play of hopes and fears,
While the orchestra breathes fitfully
The music of the spheres.

Mimes, in the form of God on high,
Mutter and mumble low,
And hither and thither fly --
Mere puppets they, who come and go
At bidding of vast formless things
That shift the scenery to and fro,
Flapping from out their Condor wings
Invisible Wo!

That motley drama! --oh, be sure
It shall not be forgot!
With its Phantom chased forever more,
By a crowd that seize it not,
Through a circle that ever returneth in
To the self-same spot,
And much of Madness and more of Sin
And Horror the soul of the plot.

But see, amid the mimic rout,
A crawling shape intrude!
A blood-red thing that writhes from out
The scenic solitude!
It writhes! --it writhes! --with mortal pangs
The mimes become its food,
And the seraphs sob at vermin fangs
In human gore imbued.

Out --out are the lights --out all!
And over each quivering form,
The curtain, a funeral pall,
Comes down with the rush of a storm,
And the angels, all pallid and wan,
Uprising, unveiling, affirm
That the play is the tragedy, "Man,"
And its hero the Conqueror Worm.

"O God!" half shrieked Ligeia, leaping to her feet and extending her arms aloft with a spasmodic movement, as I made an end of these lines --"O God! O Divine Father! --shall these things be undeviatingly so? --shall this Conqueror be not once conquered? Are we not part and parcel in Thee? Who --who knoweth the mysteries of the will with its vigor? Man doth not yield him to the angels, nor unto death utterly, save only through the weakness of his feeble will."

And now, as if exhausted with emotion, she suffered her white arms to fall, and returned solemnly to her bed of death. And as she breathed her last sighs, there came mingled with them a low murmur from her lips. I bent to them my ear and distinguished, again, the concluding words of the passage in Glanvill --"Man doth not yield him to the angels, nor unto death utterly, save only through the weakness of his feeble will."

She died; --and I, crushed into the very dust with sorrow, could no longer endure the lonely desolation of my dwelling in the dim and decaying city by the Rhine. I had no lack of what the world calls wealth. Ligeia had brought me far more, very far more than ordinarily falls to the lot of mortals. After a few months, therefore, of weary and aimless wandering, I purchased, and put in some repair, an abbey, which I shall not name, in one of the wildest and least frequented portions of fair England. The gloomy and dreary grandeur of the building, the almost savage aspect of the domain, the many melancholy and time-honored memories connected with both, had much in unison with the feelings of utter abandonment which had driven me into that remote and unsocial region of the country. Yet although the external abbey, with its verdant decay hanging about it, suffered but little alteration, I gave way, with a child-like perversity, and perchance with a faint hope of alleviating my sorrows, to a display of more than regal magnificence within. --For such follies, even in childhood, I had imbibed a taste and now they came back to me as if in the dotage of grief. Alas, I feel how much even of incipient madness might have been discovered in the gorgeous and fantastic draperies, in the solemn carvings of Egypt, in the wild cornices and furniture, in the Bedlam patterns of the carpets of tufted gold! I had become a bounden slave in the trammels of opium, and my labors and my orders had taken a coloring from my dreams. But these absurdities must not pause to detail. Let me speak only of that one chamber, ever accursed, whither in a moment of mental alienation, I led from the altar as my bride --as the successor of the unforgotten Ligeia --the fair-haired and blue-eyed Lady Rowena Trevanion, of Tremaine.

So here is the death of Ligeia, and the very breif introduction to Lady Rowena.

[LC_Lancer]

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 9/24/08, 03:02 PM
If you have read anything else by Poe, you should know, that his narrators, do not always have to be "sane" to reccount thier tales. Sanity is not a requirment for being able to write a fantastic, and possibly supernatural tale.

I have read other stories by Poe and I agree that some of the narrators seem (or really were) insane. I am sure that is the draw of some people to some of his stories. But each story, the narrator had to be coherent enough to write a story that can be followed and use most complete sentences. So ‘sane’ is the wrong word; ‘coherent’ should have been my word.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 9/24/08, 03:02 PM
You have misread what I said. I never said Gold was dark, I said the eyes of Ligeia were dark, so why than did he use the word gold to describe them, unless he wished to suggest something more to the reader than just a comparrison the eyes of Ligeia.

Yes, her eyes were dark, but they might have streaks of gold-like color in some parts of her eyes, maybe the narrator was describing the streaks and they disappeared when she fell ill. It could be that the ‘golden’ were physically, metaphorically, or an optical illusion in her eyes and that's what he saw.

Whether he mentioned 'golden' here to bring in the Alchemy or to turn a lighter note in the darkening narrative that was beginning I do not know and I am open to the possibilities that Poe did things that went beyond ‘coincidence’ and double meaning. However, they may have been just the right word in the right sentence for him to write.

[Dark Muse]

That she loved me I should not have doubted; and I might have been easily aware that, in a bosom such as hers, love would have reigned no ordinary passion.

I find this interesting. There is nothing in the story that suggests he ever questioned her love, so why now does he say "I should not have doubted that she loved me?" Does he equate her dath with the fact that she no longer loves him? That she is choosing to leave him?

And then

in a bosom such as hers, love would have reigned no ordinary passion

This seems to be suggest more forshadowing. The fact that he states, she has no "ordinary love" As if there is something unatural about the very nature of her love.

But in death only, was I fully impressed with the strength of her affection. For long hours, detaining my hand, would she pour out before me the overflowing of a heart whose more than passionate devotion amounted to idolatry.

This is an intersting twist. All the way up to this point he had seemed to completely worship her, and yet in her dath, he says that her own passion for him was like worship.

How had I deserved to be so blessed by such confessions? --how had I deserved to be so cursed with the removal of my beloved in the hour of her making them, But upon this subject I cannot bear to dilate.

At the hour of her death she pours her heart out to him, as previously their relationship seemed to be stemmed from his ardor for her, and their long hours of learning together, but now she shows her own passion to him. Here she moves out of that almost motherly role she once had, to take the true form of a lover.

Let me say only, that in Ligeia's more than womanly abandonment to a love, alas! all unmerited, all unworthily bestowed, I at length recognized the principle of her longing with so wildly earnest a desire for the life which was now fleeing so rapidly away. It is this wild longing --it is this eager vehemence of desire for life --but for life --that I have no power to portray --no utterance capable of expressing.

He tells us here that Ligeia's new found passion comes from her desire for life. This could bring a new possiblity into the story. As we never really see any evidence of Ligeia's love for him, we only hear of how he feels of her, and that she educates him. Does Ligeia return out of love or becasue she simply craves life above all else?

[LC_Lancer]

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
That she loved me I should not have doubted; and I might have been easily aware that, in a bosom such as hers, love would have reigned no ordinary passion.

Strange sentence, but it might have been influenced by the same things that mentioned earlier (opium, stress, or just plain feeble memory). I inferred that he should not have doubted that she loved him, but he did. His love was strong and he showed it. It is strange for a male to show the one he loves affection and it was uncommon for 1840s, but it did happen and still does. Why would he doubt it? It could be because Ligeia did not show much affection except on the surface. The phrase ‘still waters run deep’ comes to mind. She withheld telling him all of her feelings while she was alive and well, but when faced with her death, she decided to tell him the entire depth of them. With Ligeia withholding from the narrator her true feelings, he began to doubt if she loved him as much as he loved her. Thus this first sentence is an admonishment for doubting her.

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
But in death only, was I fully impressed with the strength of her affection.

I think this is the narrator’s belief as to why Ligeia is telling him these feelings at this time.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
Let me say only, that in Ligeia's more than womanly abandonment to a love, alas! all unmerited, all unworthily bestowed, I at length recognized the principle of her longing with so wildly earnest a desire for the life which was now fleeing so rapidly away.

Here he doubts himself. He could doubt that he deserves this attention because of the opium, feeble memory, his deep love for Ligeia, or even his dependence on Ligeia that is about to change.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
It is this wild longing --it is this eager vehemence of desire for life --but for life --that I have no power to portray --no utterance capable of expressing.

Again he is at a loss of words for an adequate description. This could have been Poe leaving the reader to fill in the missing description to his/her own words.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
At high noon of the night in which she departed, beckoning me, peremptorily, to her side, she bade me repeat certain verses composed by herself not many days before. I obeyed her.

The poem he reads to her is “The Conqueror Worm”. A poem that is listed as being originally published in 1843 in Graham’s Magazine, but appears here five years earlier.

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
"O God! O Divine Father! --shall these things be undeviatingly so? --shall this Conqueror be not once conquered? Are we not part and parcel in Thee? Who --who knoweth the mysteries of the will with its vigor? Man doth not yield him to the angels, nor unto death utterly, save only through the weakness of his feeble will.

This is an extra stanza that has not been finish. But Poe must have hoped to return to it, but did not. The extra stanza is not in 1843 stand alone version. I find it ironic that even though she screamed “O God!” and leapt to her feet, he continued to read. It is implied that she jumped off of the bed, and he kept on reading. This is one of the indications that she was a real person. If she was a ghost, then she could not have died lying down. According to Hollywood, the ghost would simply disappear or moved toward the bright light. She died lying down with him beside her.

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
I bent to them my ear and distinguished, again, the concluding words of the passage in Glanvill --"Man doth not yield him to the angels, nor unto death utterly, save only through the weakness of his feeble will.

This is the quote from the prelude. It indicates to me that she believes that it is her lack of will power that will cause her to leave this life.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
She died; --and I, crushed into the very dust with sorrow, could no longer endure the lonely desolation of my dwelling in the dim and decaying city by the Rhine. I had no lack of what the world calls wealth. Ligeia had brought me far more, very far more than ordinarily falls to the lot of mortals.

Here again he states he is not poor, but he does it in a way to call into doubt what he means. His line, “what the world calls wealth” indicates that he is wealthy by what society means when it says ‘wealthy’, but the second half of the sentence he leads the reader to think that Ligeia ‘wealth’ was added to his, but upon closer inspection, he only said Ligeia gave him things that other people would not understand. I first thought he meant love and affection, but after looking at it again, I thought this might be a fore-shadow of the ending as well as the knowledge he gained as they studied together.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
The gloomy and dreary grandeur of the building, the almost savage aspect of the domain, the many melancholy and time-honored memories connected with both, had much in unison with the feelings of utter abandonment which had driven me into that remote and unsocial region of the country.

He leaves German or Switzerland for England. He takes up residence in a lonely sad place that no one visits and hardly anyone lives. The land around him mimics his mood and feelings. He is depressed and does not want any visitors.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
Yet although the external abbey, with its verdant decay hanging about it, suffered but little alteration, I gave way, with a child-like perversity, and perchance with a faint hope of alleviating my sorrows, to a display of more than regal magnificence within.

With this description of the church, we see it is an extension of the narrator himself. He say that the abbey (and himself) is not damaged on the outside, but the inside needs some work.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
--For such follies, even in childhood, I had imbibed a taste and now they came back to me as if in the dotage of grief. Alas, I feel how much even of incipient madness might have been discovered in the gorgeous and fantastic draperies, in the solemn carvings of Egypt, in the wild cornices and furniture, in the Bedlam patterns of the carpets of tufted gold! I had become a bounden slave in the trammels of opium, and my labors and my orders had taken a coloring from my dreams. But these absurdities must not pause to detail

He admits here that he is using opium. It dulls the senses so he cannot tell what is real or surreal. He even admits that some of the opium dreams may have been caused by the decorations he used in the church. However, he does not want to tell us about the dreams; it might be that we should loose total respect, empathy, and sympathy for him. Also, it will lead the reader not to trust anything the narrator tells us. The ending is in question because we can still believe the narrator at this point. If he tells us the dreams, then he will loose any hope what he saw was real.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
. Let me speak only of that one chamber, ever accursed, whither

He only tells us about one room. It may be because that is the only room he finished, but that will have to wait for the next section. He mentioned between two commas that the bedroom is cursed. Another word for cursed is haunted. I think this is a fore-shadow of the next section where Ligeia makes her present known. It could also be a fore-shadow to let us know now that Rowena and the narrator did not get a long well. It could also be the place where he used opium and will forever be reminded the drug while in that room.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
…in a moment of mental alienation, I led from the altar as my bride --as the successor of the unforgotten Ligeia --the fair-haired and blue-eyed Lady Rowena Trevanion, of Tremaine.

It is again curious that before he begins the description of the bridal chamber he tell us that he married again. This time he does not describe her at all (except hair and eye color) as he did with Ligeia. He might not have loved her. He might have been under the influence of opium when he made the decision to marry her. He might have been disappointed that she did not take care of him as Ligeia did. Whatever the reason, we are left to fill in the rest of her features as we see fit.

[Dark Muse]

Strange sentence, but it might have been influenced by the same things that mentioned earlier (opium, stress, or just plain feeble memory). I inferred that he should not have doubted that she loved him, but he did. His love was strong and he showed it. It is strange for a male to show the one he loves affection and it was uncommon for 1840s, but it did happen and still does. Why would he doubt it? It could be because Ligeia did not show much affection except on the surface. The phrase ‘still waters run deep’ comes to mind. She withheld telling him all of her feelings while she was alive and well, but when faced with her death, she decided to tell him the entire depth of them. With Ligeia withholding from the narrator her true feelings, he began to doubt if she loved him as much as he loved her. Thus this first sentence is an admonishment for doubting her.
I think this is the narrator’s belief as to why Ligeia is telling him these feelings at this time.

Yes I too found this to be a strange scentence and mentioned it in my above post, so I will not completely repete myself here, but it was currious, his sudden indication of having at some point doubted in her love.

Here he doubts himself. He could doubt that he deserves this attention because of the opium, feeble memory, his deep love for Ligeia, or even his dependence on Ligeia that is about to change. ]

I think it is fairly common when one loves someone to doubt they are worthy of that love. I think it is a normal reaction when a person holds another in high-esteem to think the person they love is better then they are. Most anyone who has been in love I think has had such feelings of doubting thier own self-worth.

Again he is at a loss of words for an adequate description. This could have been Poe leaving the reader to fill in the missing description to his/her own words.

I think it helps show the emotion of the narrator. It brings his feelings to life, in such a moment I think it would be hard for anyone to truly complete a thought.

I find it ironic that even though she screamed “O God!” and leapt to her feet, he continued to read. It is implied that she jumped off of the bed, and he kept on reading. This is one of the indications that she was a real person. If she was a ghost, then she could not have died lying down. According to Hollywood, the ghost would simply disappear or moved toward the bright light. She died lying down with him beside her.

It is currious in a way Ligeia's reaction to his reading the poem here, in someways refelcts the narrators own reaction at the end of the story when Ligeia rises from the dead Rowena.

I do not think we can use Hollywood as the authority on the proper way for a ghost to "die" particuarly when talking about a story which came out befroe hollywood. I think that it is rather open to anyones personal interpitation how they wish to portray ghosts and there is no ulitimate right or wrong way.

Here again he states he is not poor, but he does it in a way to call into doubt what he means. His line, “what the world calls wealth” indicates that he is wealthy by what society means when it says ‘wealthy’, but the second half of the sentence he leads the reader to think that Ligeia ‘wealth’ was added to his, but upon closer inspection, he only said Ligeia gave him things that other people would not understand. I first thought he meant love and affection, but after looking at it again, I thought this might be a fore-shadow of the ending as well as the knowledge he gained as they studied together.

Yes at first reading it would seem to indicate it meant he had recvived money from Ligeia after her death, but when one considers how he does state

what the world calls wealth

When talking about his own wealth but in the last scentence indicates

very far more than ordinarily falls to the lot of mortals.

This suggests that the wealth he had from her was not a matterilistic vaule. I think that it is a connection both of the love he had for her, and the learning in which she instructed him that he gained from her.

He leaves German or Switzerland for England. He takes up residence in a lonely sad place that no one visits and hardly anyone lives. The land around him mimics his mood and feelings. He is depressed and does not want any visitors.

This is a good observation that the setting reflects his current mood. Also interesting that this new setting also reflects the state of his new marriage, as his second marriage is a dreary and depressing one.

With this description of the church, we see it is an extension of the narrator himself. He say that the abbey (and himself) is not damaged on the outside, but the inside needs some work.

The gloomy and dreary grandeur of the building, the almost savage aspect of the domain, the many melancholy and time-honored memories connected with both, had much in unison with the feelings of utter abandonment which had driven me into that remote and unsocial region of the country. Yet although the external abbey, with its verdant decay hanging about it, suffered but little alteration, I gave way, with a child-like perversity, and perchance with a faint hope of alleviating my sorrows, to a display of more than regal magnificence within.

This whole passage is beautiful and as you have mentioned and pointed out. It is a wondeful way in which the external envrioment reflects the mood and feelings of the narrator. It is a wondeful metaphor.

He only tells us about one room. It may be because that is the only room he finished, but that will have to wait for the next section. He mentioned between two commas that the bedroom is cursed. Another word for cursed is haunted. I think this is a fore-shadow of the next section where Ligeia makes her present known. It could also be a fore-shadow to let us know now that Rowena and the narrator did not get a long well. It could also be the place where he used opium and will forever be reminded the drug while in that room.

Later in the story of course the decour will become quite inporante and the way in which it is viewed, and what is dream/hallucnation/reality can all become blurred. But I think the nature of the chamber, and the way in which he talks about it, is another way in which the mind of the reader is meant to question just what really happens. It adds more mystery and doubt, suggestion to the story.

It is again curious that before he begins the description of the bridal chamber he tell us that he married again. This time he does not describe her at all (except hair and eye color) as he did with Ligeia. He might not have loved her. He might have been under the influence of opium when he made the decision to marry her. He might have been disappointed that she did not take care of him as Ligeia did. Whatever the reason, we are left to fill in the rest of her features as we see fit.

The funny thing about Rowena, is the fact that he seems to acutally know more about Roweana, at least of her past and where she came from than he ever did of Ligeia. For one thing he gives us Rowena's sir name while he never even knew Ligeia's and he had direct contact with Rowena's parents, and yet he only vaugely recalls Ligeia speaking of her family. Yet the reader is given to know less about Rowena than Ligeia.

Also it cannot be ignored the way in which Rowena is clearly the exact oppisite of Ligeia in apperance, and the fact that he makes the point of that being the one thing which he points out about Rowena.

[LC_Lancer]

At first this post was over 2000 words, so I thought it was too long. Even I would not want to read a post that long.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
That she loved me I should not have doubted; and I might have been easily aware that, in a bosom such as hers, love would have reigned no ordinary passion.

Dark Muse asked on 09-25-2008 at 07:56 PM
I find this interesting. There is nothing in the story that suggests he ever questioned her love, so why now does he say "I should not have doubted that she loved me?" Does he equate her dath with the fact that she no longer loves him? That she is choosing to leave him?

Neither. I think it was that she was not very verbal with her love and kept the depth of her feelings from him. In every relationship, there is a hint of uncertainty; a doubt. But DM already agree with that sentence when he wrote.

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Dark Muse wrote on 09-29-2008 at 04:39 PM
…it was currious, his sudden indication of having at some point doubted in her love.

AND

Dark Muse wrote on 09-29-2008 at 04:39 PM
I think it is fairly common when one loves someone to doubt they are worthy of that love. I think it is a normal reaction when a person holds another in high-esteem to think the person they love is better then they are. Most anyone who has been in love I think has had such feelings of doubting thier own self-worth.

Originally Posted by LC_Lancer 9/29/08 at 3:22 PM
Again he is at a loss of words for an adequate description. This could have been Poe leaving the reader to fill in the missing description to his/her own words.

Dark Muse wrote on 09-29-2008 at 04:39 PM
I think it helps show the emotion of the narrator. It brings his feelings to life, in such a moment I think it would be hard for anyone to truly complete a thought.

Yes, Yes. I can see that. Great idea. We also must remember that he is writing this story years after it happened. He may have simply forgotten how he felt.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
in a bosom such as hers, love would have reigned no ordinary passion

Dark Muse wrote on 09-25-2008 at 07:56 PM
This seems to be suggest more forshadowing. The fact that he states, she has no "ordinary love" As if there is something unatural about the very nature of her love.

The ‘nature’ of her love could be ‘un-natural’, but I think it was the depth of her affection toward him that he questioned. Even in a woman like her, her love was beyond that of other persons. Since he loved her so deeply, it might have been just that he saw it differently than other people’s love.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe But in death only, was I fully impressed with the strength of her affection. For long hours, detaining my hand, would she pour out before me the overflowing of a heart whose more than passionate devotion amounted to idolatry.

Dark Muse wrote on 09-25-2008 at 07:56 PM This is an intersting twist. All the way up to this point he had seemed to completely worship her, and yet in her dath, he says that her own passion for him was like worship.

True, but I think he was praising her comments of him as ‘devoted’ as someone would have for God. He was also telling us the type of praise she was giving him. The reason he ‘seemed to completely worship her’ was he is writing the story. He is telling us only of his feelings.

Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
How had I deserved to be so blessed by such confessions? --how had I deserved to be so cursed with the removal of my beloved in the hour of her making them, But upon this subject I cannot bear to dilate.

Dark Muse 09-25-2008 07:56 PM
At the hour of her death she pours her heart out to him, as previously their relationship seemed to be stemmed from his ardor for her, and their long hours of learning together, but now she shows her own passion to him. Here she moves out of that almost motherly role she once had, to take the true form of a lover.

Here he is, also, lamenting the idea that she is telling her feelings at the end of her life. He does not want even to think of the things they could have done if she had only told of her deep feelings earlier. I think the reason she ‘moves out’ of the mother role to a lover is because he is taking care of her.
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Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe
Let me say only, that in Ligeia's more than womanly abandonment to a love, alas! all unmerited, all unworthily bestowed, I at length recognized the principle of her longing with so wildly earnest a desire for the life which was now fleeing so rapidly away. It is this wild longing --it is this eager vehemence of desire for life --but for life --that I have no power to portray --no utterance capable of expressing.

Dark Muse 09-25-2008 07:56 PM
He tells us here that Ligeia's new found passion comes from her desire for life. This could bring a new possiblity into the story. ... Does Ligeia return out of love or becasue she simply craves life above all else?

I think the passage indicates that she wanted to hang to life, but no other reason was given. I think it is interesting that again he fails to find the words that would contribute to the reader understanding the situation and all of its depths.
Wait, have you changed your position that the conclusion is the actual return of Ligeia and not the wishes of a opium, grief, stress induced male? If she did return it is a good question. The readers will have to decide for themselves. I know what I think. There is other evidence that something else may be in play later in the story.
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Dark Muse wrote on 09-25-2008 at 07:56 PM
The funny thing about Rowena, is the fact that he seems to acutally know more about Roweana, …he had direct contact with Rowena's parents, and yet he only vaugely recalls Ligeia speaking of her family. Yet the reader is given to know less about Rowena than Ligeia.

Since Rowena was a maiden at the time of the wedding, he would have met with the parents. Ligeia seemed to be an older woman; older than even the narrator.
AND

Dark Muse wrote on 09-25-2008 at 07:56 PM
Also it cannot be ignored the way in which Rowena is clearly the exact oppisite of Ligeia in apperance, and the fact that he makes the point of that being the one thing which he points out about Rowena.

It also cannot be ignored that he kept Rowena at arms length and refused to let her know his true self. But just the opposite with Ligeia, he knew her ‘intimately’.

There is more description of Rowena at the end of the story than at the moment she enters the story, but more on that later.

[Dark Muse]

Here he is, also, lamenting the idea that she is telling her feelings at the end of her life. He does not want even to think of the things they could have done if she had only told of her deep feelings earlier. I think the reason she ‘moves out’ of the mother role to a lover is because he is taking care of her.

That is a good observation and an interesting point. That he is now the one taking care of her during her illness.

have you changed your position that the conclusion is the actual return of Ligeia and not the wishes of a opium, grief, stress induced male? If she did return it is a good question. The readers will have to decide for themselves. I know what I think. There is other evidence that something else may be in play later in the story. [/b]

I thought I had made it clear from the very begining that I never held an offical posistion on what I thought of the ending, and that I remain still uncertain of what happend.

And sense when did I aruge that it was my posistion that the ending was just an opium dream? In the beigning of are disucssion you kept accusing me of that stance. I meerely mentioned it as a possiblity that should be explored and as one of the many ways this story could be viewed.

If I have any posistion at all, I think based on past dicussions, it would be the case that Ligeia never was a flesh and blood woman, but from the very beigning she was a phantom.

Though I wanted to get this story wrapped to start a new story for October, there is a bit too much left to go all the way to the end with. So we will have to take a little more time with this story, but I think it is worth it.

There is no individual portion of the architecture and decoration of that bridal chamber which is not now visibly before me. Where were the souls of the haughty family of the bride, when, through thirst of gold, they permitted to pass the threshold of an apartment so bedecked, a maiden and a daughter so beloved? I have said that I minutely remember the details of the chamber --yet I am sadly forgetful on topics of deep moment --and here there was no system, no keeping, in the fantastic display, to take hold upon the memory. The room lay in a high turret of the castellated abbey, was pentagonal in shape, and of capacious size. Occupying the whole southern face of the pentagon was the sole window --an immense sheet of unbroken glass from Venice --a single pane, and tinted of a leaden hue, so that the rays of either the sun or moon, passing through it, fell with a ghastly lustre on the objects within. Over the upper portion of this huge window, extended the trellice-work of an aged vine, which clambered up the massy walls of the turret. The ceiling, of gloomy-looking oak, was excessively lofty, vaulted, and elaborately fretted with the wildest and most grotesque specimens of a semi-Gothic, semi-Druidical device. From out the most central recess of this melancholy vaulting, depended, by a single chain of gold with long links, a huge censer of the same metal, Saracenic in pattern, and with many perforations so contrived that there writhed in and out of them, as if endued with a serpent vitality, a continual succession of parti-colored fires.

Some few ottomans and golden candelabra, of Eastern figure, were in various stations about --and there was the couch, too --bridal couch --of an Indian model, and low, and sculptured of solid ebony, with a pall-like canopy above. In each of the angles of the chamber stood on end a gigantic sarcophagus of black granite, from the tombs of the kings over against Luxor, with their aged lids full of immemorial sculpture. But in the draping of the apartment lay, alas! the chief phantasy of all. The lofty walls, gigantic in height --even unproportionably so --were hung from summit to foot, in vast folds, with a heavy and massive-looking tapestry --tapestry of a material which was found alike as a carpet on the floor, as a covering for the ottomans and the ebony bed, as a canopy for the bed, and as the gorgeous volutes of the curtains which partially shaded the window. The material was the richest cloth of gold. It was spotted all over, at irregular intervals, with arabesque figures, about a foot in diameter, and wrought upon the cloth in patterns of the most jetty black. But these figures partook of the true character of the arabesque only when regarded from a single point of view. By a contrivance now common, and indeed traceable to a very remote period of antiquity, they were made changeable in aspect. To one entering the room, they bore the appearance of simple monstrosities; but upon a farther advance, this appearance gradually departed; and step by step, as the visitor moved his station in the chamber, he saw himself surrounded by an endless succession of the ghastly forms which belong to the superstition of the Norman, or arise in the guilty slumbers of the monk. The phantasmagoric effect was vastly heightened by the artificial introduction of a strong continual current of wind behind the draperies --giving a hideous and uneasy animation to the whole.

In halls such as these --in a bridal chamber such as this --I passed, with the Lady of Tremaine, the unhallowed hours of the first month of our marriage --passed them with but little disquietude. That my wife dreaded the fierce moodiness of my temper --that she shunned me and loved me but little --I could not help perceiving; but it gave me rather pleasure than otherwise. I loathed her with a hatred belonging more to demon than to man. My memory flew back, (oh, with what intensity of regret!) to Ligeia, the beloved, the august, the beautiful, the entombed. I revelled in recollections of her purity, of her wisdom, of her lofty, her ethereal nature, of her passionate, her idolatrous love. Now, then, did my spirit fully and freely burn with more than all the fires of her own. In the excitement of my opium dreams (for I was habitually fettered in the shackles of the drug) I would call aloud upon her name, during the silence of the night, or among the sheltered recesses of the glens by day, as if, through the wild eagerness, the solemn passion, the consuming ardor of my longing for the departed, I could restore her to the pathway she had abandoned --ah, could it be forever? --upon the earth.

About the commencement of the second month of the marriage, the Lady Rowena was attacked with sudden illness, from which her recovery was slow. The fever which consumed her rendered her nights uneasy; and in her perturbed state of half-slumber, she spoke of sounds, and of motions, in and about the chamber of the turret, which I concluded had no origin save in the distemper of her fancy, or perhaps in the phantasmagoric influences of the chamber itself. She became at length convalescent --finally well. Yet but a brief period elapsed, ere a second more violent disorder again threw her upon a bed of suffering; and from this attack her frame, at all times feeble, never altogether recovered. Her illnesses were, after this epoch, of alarming character, and of more alarming recurrence, defying alike the knowledge and the great exertions of her physicians. With the increase of the chronic disease which had thus, apparently, taken too sure hold upon her constitution to be eradicated by human means, I could not fall to observe a similar increase in the nervous irritation of her temperament, and in her excitability by trivial causes of fear. She spoke again, and now more frequently and pertinaciously, of the sounds --of the slight sounds --and of the unusual motions among the tapestries, to which she had formerly alluded.

Here we have the detailed discription of the Bridal Chamber, much like the discription of Ligeia particular empahsis is placed upon this descirption, for the time and detail that has went into discussing it, as well like the apperance if Ligeia this room clearly has imporantance to the narrator that he remeberes it so vividly. There are some interesting things here, and then we are lead up to the illness now of Rowena.

[LC_Lancer]

Dark Muse wrote on 10-01-2008 at 02:45 PM
I thought I had made it clear from the very begining that I never held an offical posistion on what I thought of the ending, and that I remain still uncertain of what happend.

Maybe that is where we split. I am convinced of the ending, but I know it may be an opium-induce, stress, grief stricken, wishing against all hope reaction of a man.

Dark Muse wrote on 10-01-2008 at 02:45 PM
And sense when did I aruge that it was my posistion that the ending was just an opium dream?

Ok. I will look again. I was under the impression that you were advocating that ending and wanted to lean away from the supernatural ending. I am sorry of the misunderstanding. I know you liked the ‘Ligeia is a phantom’ idea, but if she lived and loved him and she returned then the conclusion is very supernatural. For me, it is even more supernatural than if she is a ghost in the beginning and simply possesses Rowena at the end.

Dark Muse wrote on 10-01-2008 at 02:45 PM
I meerely mentioned it as a possiblity that should be explored and as one of the many ways this story could be viewed.

True this story can be taken different ways, but the supernatural ending begins with her being alive and then dies.

Dark Muse wrote on 10-01-2008 at 02:45 PM
If I have any posistion at all, … it would be the case that Ligeia never was a flesh and blood woman, but from the very beigning she was a phantom.

Maybe that is where we split. I have at no time been convinced that she was a ghost at the beginning much less the end of the story. She is a live lady that lays down, dies, and interacts with the narrator. She can do some of that if she is a ghost, but not all.