Poe Short Story Discussion Group

[Quark]

Good introduction, DM. I like the picture, too. My book has some illustrations with it, and if I can to a scanner I might post them--there is one of Ligeia which I think is perfect.

As for the story, it was a classic Poe tale: mystery, the supernatural, opium-dreams. I look forward to the discussion.

[Dark Muse]

Thank you that would be great if you could post the pictures, glad you enjoyed the story.

[Quark]

Thank you that would be great if you could post the pictures

It will take me a day or two for me to locate a scanner, but once I do I should be able to post them. Like I say, the Ligeia one is very realistic--in a supernatural way, of course.

glad you enjoyed the story.

I did. It was a little slow at first with all of his descriptions of Ligeia, but you could tell it was going somewhere.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, I agree the discription of her does take a number of pages. But this was like my thrid time reading this story, and each time I do, it seems I get something a little different.

[Quark]

this was like my thrid time reading this story, and each time I do, it seems I get something a little different.

Yes, I would think this story does give more with each rereading. I'd like to look over it again a second time to see if I can't see some of those other interpretations you mentioned in your introduction. Originally, I had just taken it as the wild imaginings of an opium addict, but I'm starting to see how other explanations are possible.

[Dark Muse]

Yes on my second reading of this story I began to really look at some of the symbolism this story offers, and peel back the layers to what may be suggested, and a little bit later I will start posting some of the text and pointing out certain things I noticed which suggest other possible interpretations.

The other thing I cannot help but keep in mind when reading this story, was how much Poe really did love mystery, and how clever he was. I wonder, would he really write a story that was so simple, as just being the ravings of an opium haze?

[Quark]

would he really write a story that was so simple, as just being the ravings of an opium haze?

Well it would have the reversal in the middle when you discover the opium addiction, and it would have the mystery surrounding that addiction. Why was he using? How much effect did that have on him? What relation do his fantasies have to reality? It isn't a question of whether Poe would write a story so simple as this, but more would he write a story so psychological as this? You have to remember that many of my favorite authors are from nineteenth century Russia when stories often included deep psychological portraits of the main characters. I suppose I'm naturally inclined to interpret other stories I read in this way, too. Hopefully, though, when I reread I'll get a little more in tune with what Poe is trying to do.

[Dark Muse]

Though Poe is known for his fantastic tales of horror, I think there is a psychological aspect to his stories, as I think a lot of his own personal fears leak into his work. One of the interesting things about this story, is that it features the death of both the women, while in Poe's own life. When he was a child his mother had died, and than later, his own beloved wife had fallen ill and died. And both those deaths had a strong effect upon him. Though when this story was published, it was before the death of his wife, she was ill for a time before her death.

[LC_Lancer]

The story may have been slow at first, but when you consider that Poe kept in mind the ending the entire time he was writing, you know he was going some place special. It was interesting that the narrator could not tell us where or when they met, but could describe her in detail. As a writer, I try to know the backstory of all of the characters. Some details do not make it into the story, but I still 'flesh them out' so to speak. I felt he was not interested in that aspect of the story, or at least not interested in tell us that part of the story. Something we will have to invent for ourselves.
Regarding Ligeria description taking several pages, I feel that he adored her. I think he adored women in general (ALL OF THEM). It seems to me that since she was described in glowing terms that she was a figment of his imagination. Then, I thought he could truly be in love and that IS how he saw her.
Regarding the deaths that surrounded Poe, his first crush of a much older woman (a neighbor in Richmond) also died when Poe was a teenager. Even though death surrounds us all, it seemed to effect him more than others. He may have took it personally.

[Dark Muse]

The story may have been slow at first, but when you consider that Poe kept in mind the ending the entire time he was writing, you know he was going some place special. It was interesting that the narrator could not tell us where or when they met, but could describe her in detail. As a writer, I try to know the backstory of all of the characters. Some details do not make it into the story, but I still 'flesh them out' so to speak. I felt he was not interested in that aspect of the story, or at least not interested in tell us that part of the story. Something we will have to invent for ourselves. .

There were a couple of things I wanted to mention about the fact that he does not seem to remember anything about her past or background. I think this can be seen in a few different ways.

I CANNOT, for my soul, remember how, when, or even precisely where, I first became acquainted with the lady Ligeia. Long years have since elapsed, and my memory is feeble through much suffering

First he does tell us in the beginning that he is telling us this story long after it had happened, and that his memory tends to fail him. This device could be used to establish an unreliable narrator considering the events that come to take place. It is a clue to the reader not to necessarily take everything he tells us at his word, because things may not have truly happened the way he accounts for it.

Also it could offer a clue to the true nature of Ligeia and could case some doubt upon the fact that she ever truly exisisted.

Yet I believe that I met her first and most frequently in some large, old, decaying city near the Rhine

I always found it interesting that he spoke of having met her in an old decaying city. This does bring to mind the idea and thought of ghosts, that he met some mysterious woman of whose past he cannot recall, within a city likely no longer inhabited by the living.

And now, while I write, a recollection flashes upon me that I have never known the paternal name of her who was my friend and my betrothed, and who became the partner of my studies, and finally the wife of my bosom.

Here is another currious fact, the fact that this woman of whom he loved and soon maarried, yet never new her last name in all thier time together, and for how close they had become.

As on the other hand he is well aquianted with the name and family of his second wife. Lady Rowena is for more "earthly" compared to Ligeia.

[LC_Lancer]

"Yet I believe that I met her first and most frequently in some large, old, decaying city near the Rhine" Quote from Legeia

Dark Muse wrote "I always found it interesting that he spoke of having met her in an old decaying city. This does bring to mind the idea and thought of ghosts, that he met some mysterious woman of whose past he cannot recall, within a city likely no longer inhabited by the living."

You bring up a point that I was afraid to bring up. Ligeia might be a ghost, but I do not think so.
First the pros: He described her “the quiet ease, of her demeanor, or the incomprehensible lightness and elasticity of her footfall. She came and departed as a shadow.” Since he did not hear her enter the ‘closed study’ she might have walked through the wall. Also, he describes her hand as ‘marble’ and her beauty as ‘airy’. Both of which could be interpreted as a ‘ghost’. Legeia was fluent in several ‘ancient’ languages such as a language that has died long ago after she did.
However, I think she was real. The "quiet ease, of her demeanor, or the incomprehensible lightness and elasticity of her footfall. She came and departed as a shadow" description could have come from they lived in a noisy part of the city and he might have been concentrating on his work/book as not to hear her come through the door. Besides, she died (and she did not return until the end of the story and I believe only in his imagination). She requested him to do things on her death bed. This also shows interaction. We only have Hollywood showing us that conversations with ghosts are possible. If she was a ghost, she would have known that she could not die thus she would not need the stanzas read to her. He witnessed her die and even held her hand as she passed.
I believe that she was a live person. Even though they stayed in the “some large, old, decaying city near the Rhine” Since he mentions this description twice and no other, then I took it to mean his view of the city looking back on it after her death.

"And now, while I write, a recollection flashes upon me that I have never known the paternal name of her who was my friend and my betrothed, and who became the partner of my studies, and finally the wife of my bosom."
Quote from Legeia-

Dark Muse wrote, "Here is another currious fact, the fact that this woman of whom he loved and soon maarried, yet never new her last name in all thier time together, and for how close they had become."

Yes, I was surprised also, but sometimes a relationship happens quickly without time to find out deeper questions. Then again it was not that surprising if you factor in the opium. Even though he said he ‘never’ knew her name, it could be that the opium has erased it from his mind, just like the ‘how, when, or even precisely where” they first met.

[Dark Muse]

After having read the story 3 times now, I am still completely certain if I think Ligeia was a living person from the beginning or if she was an ethereal figure, but the idea of her being something other than an mortal woman I think is supported in more than one way within the story.

One interesting thing to note is her very name Ligeia, was actually the name given to one of the Greek Sirens, which may suggest her ethereal quality.

Also in that description of Ligiea, the narrator often refers to a quality about her beauty that is not quite normal, that there is something off about her which cannot put a name to.

Yet her features were not of that regular mould which we have been falsely taught to worship in the classical labors of the heathen. "There is no exquisite beauty," says Bacon, Lord Verulam, speaking truly of all the forms and genera of beauty, without some strangeness in the proportion." Yet, although I saw that the features of Ligeia were not of a classic regularity --although I perceived that her loveliness was indeed "exquisite," and felt that there was much of "strangeness" pervading it, yet I have tried in vain to detect the irregularity and to trace home my own perception of "the strange."

There is something about her which he cannot quite name, which is unnatural in her appearance.

And later when it begins to discuss Rowena and the Bridal Chamber, there are Alchemical allusions which emerge in the story. And the core goal of Alchemy is transmutation.

The 'death" of Ligeia could be seen as a more symbolic death, than a literal one, if you look deep within the story, it could be that Rowena was sacrificed to bring Ligeia into the living flesh.

Let me just say, I am not saying, with abslution this is what I think is ment by the story, but it is a possiblity I have explored and find of some interest. But I sill remain uncertain of my concluisions about the true nature of Ligeia and this story.

[LC_Lancer]

Regarding the name Legeia, it could have been given by her well-read, highly educated parents who thought she was a tiny Goddess (what parent doesn't) or it could have just been a name the narrator chose. He might have chosen that name on purpose to have the reader begin thinking like he does; she is a Goddess. A man in love might think that way of his lover and wife.

If he did think that way then he may become tongue-tied as to describing her beauty with 'moral' words. Since he could not think of any words that might do her justice, he then uses images the reader might know, those of Bacon, Lord Verulam. I find that modern authors do not use this type of connection to other pieces as much as writers in the distance past.

I am unsure about the "symbolic death" or that Rowena was sacrificed, but I will read it again.

[Dark Muse]

If he did think that way then he may become tongue-tied as to describing her beauty with 'moral' words. Since he could not think of any words that might do her justice, he then uses images the reader might know, those of Bacon, Lord Verulam. I find that modern authors do not use this type of connection to other pieces as much as writers in the distance past.

I think one should be careful of trying to rationalize Poe too much. Even if it might be harder to accept supernatural explanations or considerations in this day and age. Poe was not a writer who was completely tied into the world of logic and rationality.

Though there may indeed be certain physiological aspects to his writing, he was still a writer of horror and the "fantastic" as well as a romantic writer. He was not a realist.

In regards to her name, there are a couple of places within the story that mention the musical quality of Ligeia's voice.

and the thrilling and enthralling eloquence of her low musical language, made their way into my heart by paces so steadily and stealthily progressive that they have been unnoticed and unknown

I was never made aware of her entrance into my closed study save by the dear music of her low sweet voice, as she placed her marble hand upon my shoulder

I am unsure about the "symbolic death" or that Rowena was sacrificed, but I will read it again

I do not want to jump too far ahead in the text just yet but when we get more into Rowena I will point out some of the occultic allusisons which appear within the story.

Though one thing I want to mention now, is the other thing which is brought up within the story. Is the unusual learning of Ligeia. Her knowlege goes beyound just a normal to typically educated girl. There is something more about her leanrning.

Ligeia! Ligeia! in studies of a nature more than all else adapted to deaden impressions of the outward world

I said her knowledge was such as I have never known in woman --but where breathes the man who has traversed, and successfully, all the wide areas of moral, physical, and mathematical science?

Here he says her knowlege goes beyond what he has ever known in either man or woman.

she bent over me in studies but little sought --but less known --that delicious vista by slow degrees expanding before me, down whose long, gorgeous, and all untrodden path, I might at length pass onward to the goal of a wisdom too divinely precious not to be forbidden!

Here it speaks of stuides that have not been well sought nor well known, with the suggestion of the divine and the forbidden.

[LC_Lancer]

Quote Dark Muse:"he was still a writer of horror and the "fantastic" as well as a romantic writer. He was not a realist."

I could not disagree more. Yes, he is a writer of horror and romantic literature. All of them have at their base a reality that began with him. Poe, the writer, the person who sat down and put pen to paper wrote fantastic stories as a realist. He knew his readers. He knew what the readers would find believable and what things they would reject. Because he was centered in reality when he wrote, the stories and poems have an even MORE horrific and surreal feel. Poe, the writer, is the bridge between reality and the surreal.
As a writer, he has all of the control. He chooses the place, the characters, NAMES, plot, and what to reveal to the reader. It was Dark Muse who added the quote that proves this point: "Another way of looking at this theory suggests that the author must compose the story with the conclusion, or denouement, constantly in mind." A writer who keeps an eye on the end of the story is most certainly grounded in reality, at the moment he/she is writing.

Quote Dark Muse:"In regards to her name, there are a couple of places within the story that mention the musical quality of Ligeia's voice."
Poe has been praised many times for his use of music quality in his writings, both in poems and story stories. I think that if one believes that Ligeia is real then the music described in the story is the way he (the narrator) hears her. Poe, as a writer, may hear ‘music’ when Virginia spoke and translated his feelings to paper. Only a writer ground in reality could describe those feelings. As the romantic Poe has few peers. He shows us readers what he finds fascinating by the words he uses and the imagines he produces.

Quote Dark Muse: "[T]he unusual learning of Ligeia. Her knowlege goes beyound just a normal to typically educated girl. There is something more about her leanrning."
The knowledge of Ligeia could be explained by her parents’ influence as well as travels around the world. Or just that the narrator sees her knowledge as “beyond just…normal” because he views her that way; beyond normal.

The horror of the story comes from the reality that some men feel that way about a woman in their life (hopefully it is their wives) and how they have gone mad when she dies. Lady Rowena was the opposite of Ligeia, a common mistake people make when a love one dies. That is truly horrible. I do not believe Poe could have written that aspect of the story if he was not grounded in reality.
Yes, Poe had his problems and drank too much, but he needed a clear head to begin writing the stories with such fantastic ending that he aimed toward with every sentence.