I'm not the most seasoned reader, but of all the books I have read William Golding goes to the top of my list of the most overrated of writers. Nothing he has written is substantially deep or evocative, and Lord of the Flies isn't a very good allegory of human nature.
I tend to agree with this. Tribalism is not necessarily barbaric, nor is savagery so quaintly schematic in terms of being able to plot one's points toward regression.Originally Posted by JacobF
Today's gangs in the US, for example, don't need to be spearing pigs to be seen as devolving off of civic respect. Guns make human life very cheap these days, and murders don't even need motives--like it has been said about Cormac McCarthy's villains "killing seems to become just part of the conversation."
Reminds me of the fall of the Roman Empire.
Honestly JBI, only a person who hasn't read much Hemingway could refer to him as a minor writer. I've seen you misread him as a minimalist several times, and I've told you that's mostly just characteristic of his early work. You'll read Finnegans Wake but you won't put the slightest effort into reading For Whom the Bell Tolls, A Farewell To Arms, A Moveable Feast, or the Old Man and the Sea because you already have your opinion of Hemingway, somebody elses.
As far as subject matter goes, when I want to know about the mating habits of Irish prostitutes, or I want to read the only book about a struggling young writer, or a book about Dublin, or Dublin, or Dublin again, I'll read Joyce. When I want to know what it's like to hunt a lion I'll read Hemingway.
And by the way, to whomever above was talking **** about boxing, I happen to like the sport.
"So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
"This ain't over."- Charles Bronson
Feed the Hungry!
Proust.
A couple of others like Golding, Hawthorne, Heller, Balzac, Austen, And pretty much any modern writer that is published.
Oh wait, and Twain. And most American writers. Most people who wrote in English.
And Steinback is insufferable.
Last edited by Michigan J Frog; 08-25-2008 at 12:50 AM.
His Iceberg theory was revealed to the world in 1932 with the publication of Death in the Afternoon, outlining his style, which though perhaps not as simplistic as his early work, was still minimalist. But either way, the point is whether or not he is a minor writer, or whether or not he is a major writer.
The first thing we need to assess is his contemporaries, off the top of my head, the ones that hit me first are O'Neal, Faulkner, Fitzgerald, Steinbeck, Porter, Carter, Cather and on a stretch, Wharton.
Of those, he is obviously better than Steinbeck and Porter, but Fitzgerald's Great Gatsby, and any of the major works of Faulkner seem far more enduring than even the best Hemingway. O'Neal is unique, as we are dealing with drama here, which seems outside of Hemingway, and most mainstream reading. The question then remains where is the spot for Hemingway.
In terms of short stories, as I mentioned earlier, he seems, with Faulkner and Porter, the most defining of the genre, far surpassing everyone, except for Faulkner. As for novels however, he is just one amongst many great writers, as named above. This is only American modernism however, as you mentioned above, there were a lot more writers working at the time, and I am sure there were a lot more as talented, or more talented writers we don't know about because of lack of scholarship/translation.
His place in the tradition of American literature is undisputed, but it is not a stretch to say exaggerated, as many of his works are dated (despite what you say) and the whole Lost-Generation bit which seems cemented in his early work has grown a little stale. Do I deny that he was a great writer? of course not, though I wouldn't place him above Willa Cather in my esteem.
[QUOTE=mortalterror;614301]..As far as his contribution not being dangerous or meaningful, I remember a little thing called 9/11. You might have heard about it. You see, a bunch of "ambulance drivers", fire fighters, and policemen ran into a burning building to pull survivors from collapsing wreckage. Well this "ambulance driver" went to a place every bit as scary as that. He took out the maimed, the bleeding, the dying, the groaning remains of humanity; let it seep into his clothing and fester in his mind. He dropped them off at the hospital week after week, and then he went back over and over to do it again. That's a patriot. That's a hero who's service does not deserve to be slighted or mocked by men who weren't there and didn't do or see half of the things he did
Don't be ridiculous. Of course a man who risks his life as an ambulance driver/ fireman etc is brave and praiseworthy. I hugely admire the conscientious objectors in WW1 who served as stretcher bearers and won medals for rescuing men under shell fire. What I can't bear about Hemingway is his macho posturing, boasting and lying when he was never actually a combatant. It now seems to be generally accepted among biographers and scholars that he exaggerated and sometimes simply lied about his experiences in WW1 and Spain. Still, he needed to dramatise and exaggerate, wheras a man like Robert Graves in 'Goodbye To All That' simply tells of his time as an infantry officer in WW1 in a cool, precise, undramatic way because he had nothing to prove.
If you want to read about war, read something like 'The Last Enemy' by Richard Hillary: a British fighter pilot in the Battle Of Britain who was shot down over the channel and severly burnt/ disfigured. He wrote about the battle while recovering, rejoined the RAF shortly after publishing and was killed a few months later. He writes without a shred of self pity, sentimentality or drama. His little, almost forgotten, book is far more moving than anything that overrated bully Hemingway wrote.
He does write well about that I must say. Still, lots of writers write well about that period : Aldous Huxley, Evelyn Waugh, Hermann Hesse etc all capture the emptiness/ loss of meaning very well.
I must be quite a Philistine - Steinbeck is my favorite writer and I find Hemingway dreadful. For Whom the Bell Tolls is his only work that I've read cover to cover, so I'm certainly no expert and am definitely planning on reading more. But I just didn't see anything that justified all the praise heaped on him. If I was a Spanish civil war aficionado I may have enjoyed it immensely, but to me it was just a simple theme wrapped in an overly dramatized* book that was 200 pages too long.
* Particularly the ending
I am rather surprised at all this Hemingway fuss. I recently reread For Whom The Bell Tolls, and there are things to like in it, but Hemingway seems incapable of humanizing characters beyond Hollywood cliches. I was certainly not moved by what I should have been moved by in Rabbit's experiences, or the other peasant soldiers of the doomed Republic. I got much more, in fact, from a Granta contributor recently recounting an earlier travel writer's experiences in 1930's Spain.
But I am not here to trash the man either--there is something to be said for the reporting style he brought to fiction. Fitzgerald transcends Hemingway, Faulkner transcends both, but they were men of their era, and I disagree with JBI putting Wharton in their camp.
Edith Wharton, like Henry James, represented the last gasp of America in the Victorian age, and that she outlived James by a significant margin doesn't change that.
Let's all take a deep breath? (In and out... )
Both Hemingway and D.H. Lawrence are better as Travel writers.' Sea and Sardinia'' and ''A Moveable Feast'' are good. Can't read Henry James and don't think much of Grahame Greene.
In this particular case, I cannot separate the writer from his writing. Just as if Karl Rove or Dick Cheney wrote the most well-written fiction book loosely based on all the great things they've done for middle east, or if Michael Vick was the most eloquent writer on the planet, I would read none of their books because they are major jerks/idiots who lack the slightest amount of empathy or compassion and possess an acute disrespect for their fellow living creatures. These type of folks have nothing of value to impart to me at this time of my life. It's not about whether an author's life (in this case Hemingway's) was exciting or boring, it's about the moral character of the individual himself/herself. It permeates and shines through in a writer's works.
His alcoholism I couldn't give a crap about. Many authors are alcoholic. Or have some sort of addiction or self-destructive foible or idiosyncrasy (sometimes these shortcomings actually enhance the author's writing, making it more interesting or rich with understanding). But if the person appears to have a bloodthirsty streak for needlessly hurting fellow creatures, then that person more than likely has nothing meaningful to impart to me. It indicates a severe lack of depth in their perception of life.
Perhaps if I hadn't read Hemingway's works before and disliked them, I would give him another chance. But I have already read a few of his novels, and did not receive enjoyment or fulfillment from them. So why would I torture myself by reading his books again? Especially when the man's character is so repugnant to me?
For the person who enjoys boxing....good for you. Nothing like watching the spectacle of pointless bloodshed carried out by two willing individuals. I just wish and pray they would bring back the old gladiatorial "games" of Rome. I don't think there is enough gore or innocent animals involved in modern day fighting.
(By the way, Etienne, is that Borat as your avatar? ;-)
Last edited by integrity; 08-25-2008 at 05:51 PM.
Well of course, but then the reason would be that you disliked his writing, not that the man was a hunter...
No, Andrei Bely(By the way, Etienne, is that Borat as your avatar? ;-)I think I'll have to change it it's confusing people
Et l'unique cordeau des trompettes marines
Apollinaire, Le chantre
For what it is worth I would just like to throw my coins into the Hemingway well and say that personally I find his novel A Moveable Feast to be easily his best work. Hemingway seems to be at his best in this novel because it is closely biographical and therefore it seems to step away from the “Hollywood” aspect of some of his other novels. Fiesta is also one of his best works. Both these works while not outstanding by any means present a flavour of continental life that I find very attractive.
In this particular case, I cannot separate the writer from his writing. Just as if Karl Rove or Dick Cheney wrote the most well-written fiction book loosely based on all the great things they've done for middle east, or if Michael Vick was the most eloquent writer on the planet, I would read none of their books because they are major jerks/idiots who lack the slightest amount of empathy or compassion and possess an acute disrespect for their fellow living creatures. These type of folks have nothing of value to impart to me at this time of my life. It's not about whether an author's life (in this case Hemingway's) was exciting or boring, it's about the moral character of the individual himself/herself. It permeates and shines through in a writer's works... if the person appears to have a bloodthirsty streak for needlessly hurting fellow creatures, then that person more than likely has nothing meaningful to impart to me. It indicates a severe lack of depth in their perception of life.
Integrity brings into play an intriguing question. Can we separate the artist from the art? Can a real a@#hole produce great art? Do we find it impossible to divorce who the artist was from what the artist did? I think such questions are in need of another thread altogether... and so:
http://www.online-literature.com/for...810#post614810
Last edited by stlukesguild; 08-25-2008 at 10:21 PM.
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I want to read more Hemingway but what on earth happens in The Old Man and The Sea?! It is apparantly 'one of the most profound stories ever told' but all they're currently doing is eating fish and reading about baseball!
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