D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Quark]

Here too the blood would serve two purposes - to free up both men so that their bond would tap into their more primal roles and their Old Adams.

I hadn't thought about that, but it's true. The fight restores Severn and Mr. Thomas to their original friendly relationship. Lawrence tells us that

as a rule the two men were very friendly

The angry, combative postures they assume, therefore, are not natural. At first, Lawrence doesn't specify why they've changed. He only vaguely says

there came times when, for no reason whatever, they were sullenly hostile.

Eventually, though, the reason becomes clear: Mrs. Thomas. We see this in the argument over Woman's Bill. Mr. Thomas brings up the topic as way of gaining the attention of his wife.

Presently Thomas, always courting his wife and insultingly overlooking Severn, raised a point of politics

This annoys Severn because now he's the one being ignored. If only Mrs. Thomas would agree with him, then he could be comfortable. This fight with words foreshadows the fight with fists, and we see that Mrs. Thomas is the one making the men combative. Lawrence even makes this explicit with sentences like:

It was surprising how friendly the two men were, as soon as they had something to do together, or when Mrs. Thomas was absent. Then they were comrades.

Mrs. Thomas excites them to a hatred that isn't natural. When the fight breaks out, though, they're doing something together which minimalizes Mrs. Thomas's role. That reunites them.

but from reading about the family Lawrence actually resided with (in two residences)

That's interesting. I didn't know all this about L's personal life. How autobiographical do you think the story is?

Yes, I think the text does indicate that Mrs. Severn orchestrated the household.

Mrs. Severn orchestrates the action within the story, but the story doesn't say much of anything about the lives of these characters outside of this point in time. A reader could extrapolate from what we know in this story, and decide that Mrs. Severn was always controlling. But, I think this would have to remain speculative. There's nothing I could find in the story which describes the household outside of this little bit we get.

This is still something I am unclear about. Does the text actually ever say, it was Mrs. Thomas' lone decision to expell Kate from the house? Do you know what part of the text states that as a solid fact?

I don't remember it ever saying who directly was responsible for her leaving, but it is implied that Mrs. Thomas is throwing her out. The last line

Kate, her fate disposed of by her "betters", pased out of their three live.

So, it either has to be Mr. or Mrs. Thomas. There's no reason why Mr. Thomas would be throwing her out, however Mrs. Thomas could be throwing her out in a similar tiff like that the men are having. The text gives us little hints that make this seem probable. For example, Severn, who loses the fight for Mrs. Thomas and the fight itself, is connected with Kate, who loses out with Severn and her job. After Severn starts to lose in the fight, Lawrence explains that

With a shock of real agony, he met the eyes of Kate. She bent forward, she captured his eyes.

Severn and Kate connect at this moment because they are both suffering the same fate. Mr. Thomas is quarreling with Severn, just as Mrs. Thomas is quarreling with Kate. And, both Severn and Kate are being repulsed by their "betters."

Well, she may have supper for him but he did come home extremely late. I don't blame her for not doting on him. He was acting kind of childish himself and she has children to care for as it is. It seems she is quite annoyed at him for coming in late and maybe she does have some grounds for her annoyance.

It sounds like this is constant complain of Mrs. Thomas's. She tells Severn

"No," she said, quite bitterly. "Mr. Thomas is never in when he's wanted."

Whether that makes her justified in being snippy with him when he gets home, I don't know. But, it does sound like Mr. Thomas has a problem with punctuality.

[Janine]

Antiquarian, I feel badly. I think your post got lost a page or so ago - not sure anyone has answered it. I am going out with my mother - she needs me to take her to dinner. When I come back I will look into it. I guess I am back in the discussion; but may just take a break, except to reread yours and see if it needs response, until Virgil posts some more of the text - there is more, right? Anti, I hope you have been having a nice Sunday and hope your hubby is off from work.

I hadn't thought about that, but it's true. The fight restores Severn and Mr. Thomas to their original friendly relationship. Lawrence tells us that:

Quark, thanks for posting that statement. I had forgotten it did say that right in the actual text before the fight broke out.

The angry, combative postures they assume, therefore, are not natural. At first, Lawrence doesn't specify why they've changed. He only vaguely says

Well, not fighting wouldn't be natural, but in the Alpha and Beta male animal sense it might be. I guess the rivalry is active or evident in the fight; that would be animalistic in aspect; therefore, a natural response. I think Lawrence would have viewed it that way. There also may have been a friendliness; and yet, some shreds resentment on both sides. Hey, it happens sometimes, without us even being aware of it. Usually it comes out in the unwise manor, such as the sudden confrontation, physically. Remember, that these people are living together, and may just grate on each other's nerves at times.

Eventually, though, the reason becomes clear: Mrs. Thomas. We see this in the argument over Woman's Bill. Mr. Thomas brings up the topic as way of gaining the attention of his wife.

That may be the catalyst to cause the buildup of resentments and hostiliy that later is expressed in the fight. I don't believe it is the complete reason. Severn also might be somewhat annoyed/resentful about the expulsion of Kate from the household. Afterall, that would now place Severn on precarious ground as well, being below the statis of the husband and wife. He might have felt subconsiously threatened. The Thomas' would have the option to expell him as well anytime they pleased. They hold the power here.

This annoys Severn because now he's the one being ignored. If only Mrs. Thomas would agree with him, then he could be comfortable. This fight with words foreshadows the fight with fists, and we see that Mrs. Thomas is the one making the men combative. Lawrence even makes this explicit with sentences like:

This could further his feelings of insecurity - as though people are taking sides and he is now the one being left out; much as Kate is being left out of the household, after this evening. Yes, I do see parallels, to the two women at odds and the two men and it does seem Mrs. Thomas is making the two men turn against each other - she is causing or adding to this state of mind in each; therefore the verbal combat does forshadow the fight.

Mrs. Thomas excites them to a hatred that isn't natural. When the fight breaks out, though, they're doing something together which minimalizes Mrs. Thomas's role. That reunites them.

Now it does leave her completely out, even before they reconcile their differences.

That's interesting. I didn't know all this about L's personal life. How autobiographical do you think the story is?

I wrote about it in the introduction to this story.

Mrs. Severn orchestrates the action within the story, but the story doesn't say much of anything about the lives of these characters outside of this point in time. A reader could extrapolate from what we know in this story, and decide that Mrs. Severn was always controlling. But, I think this would have to remain speculative. There's nothing I could find in the story which describes the household outside of this little bit we get.

It is only a short story; same with Chekhov - don't we have to guess about that? Quark Don't you mean 'Mrs. Thomas' and not 'Mrs. Severn?' Last story you kept calling the guy and gal husband and wife and they were only engaged.

I don't remember it ever saying who directly was responsible for her leaving, but it is implied that Mrs. Thomas is throwing her out. The last line

Thanks, that is helpful; yet it could indicate the married couple have conferred on that decision and then decided she must leave. Also, if Mrs Thomas and Kate were often antagonistic to each other perhaps the husband did take control and decide she must depart. There really is no solid evident within the boundries of this story that it was Mrs.Thomas' decision alone.

So, it either has to be Mr. or Mrs. Thomas. There's no reason why Mr. Thomas would be throwing her out, however Mrs. Thomas could be throwing her out in a similar tiff like that the men are having. The text gives us little hints that make this seem probable. For example, Severn, who loses the fight for Mrs. Thomas and the fight itself, is connected with Kate, who loses out with Severn and her job. After Severn starts to lose in the fight, Lawrence explains that

Like I said above, it could be either - or. My inclination would be to believe that Mrs. Thomas instigated Kate's removal. She probably did confer with the husband and so she is leaving the household. Yes, at the end, it seems that it brought Severn down to Kate's level. She showed her strength and power over him to stop the fight. He covered his face ashamed of his actions. If anything I think Kate was more dominent at this moment. Mrs. Thomas could not even be dominent enough to control the two men, and yet Kate handled the situation brillantly and with much strength of character.

Severn and Kate connect at this moment because they are both suffering the same fate. Mr. Thomas is quarreling with Severn, just as Mrs. Thomas is quarreling with Kate. And, both Severn and Kate are being repulsed by their "betters."

This I am not sure of. Is Severn being repulsed by his betters? How is Severn suffering the same fate as Kate?

It sounds like this is constant complain of Mrs. Thomas's. She tells Severn:

"No," she said, quite bitterly. "Mr. Thomas is never in when he's wanted."

Whether that makes her justified in being snippy with him when he gets home, I don't know. But, it does sound like Mr. Thomas has a problem with punctuality.

I don't doubt he does and on a regular basis. That would make the wife rebell against his habitual lateness. I can't help relate this to Lawrence's own father who came in late night after night and missed many a dinner, because he had to stop off first at the local pub. That was common to some, in those days.

[Quark]

There also may have been a friendliness; and yet, some shreds resentment on both sides. Hey, it happens sometimes, without us even being aware of it. Usually it comes out in the unwise manor, such as the sudden confrontation, physically. Remember, that these people are living together, and may just grate on each other's nerves at times.

It's possible they may have fought before, but it doesn't appear that they were every at each other's throat like this. This episode seems like an aberration in their usually peaceful relationship. The quotes I posted above indicate that, and what Lawrence tells us at the end also points that way.

To the end of their acquaintance, Severn and Thomas were close friends, with a gentleness in their bearing, one toward the other.

That may be the catalyst to cause the buildup of resentments and hostiliy that later is expressed in the fight. I don't believe it is the complete reason. Severn also might be somewhat annoyed/resentful about the expulsion of Kate from the household.

That may be true, but I don't know why anyone would be lead to think that. Severn is somewhat angry that Kate is being forced out, but he doesn't direct his hatred toward Mr. Thomas. He points it at Mrs. Thomas. Lawrence:

"Poor Kate," Severn thought. "It's a shame to kick her out into the world, and all for nothing," He felt an impulse of hate toward womankind.

I wrote about it in the introduction to this story.

I'll have to go back and read your post. I came into the discussion a few days late, so I missed it.

Don't you mean 'Mrs. Thomas' and not 'Mrs. Severn?' Last story you kept calling the guy and gal husband and wife and they were only engaged.

Doh.

Thanks, that is helpful; yet it could indicate the married couple have conferred on that decision and then decided she must leave. Also, if Mrs Thomas and Kate were often antagonistic to each other perhaps the husband did take control and decide she must depart. There really is no solid evident within the boundries of this story that it was Mrs.Thomas' decision alone.

No, there is no solid evidence--meaning, Lawrence never comes out and says Gertie fired Kate. There are, however, a few good indications that Mrs. Thomas is responsible. The quote I posted in my last post was just one. The quote I posted above in this post is another.

Yes, at the end, it seems that it brought Severn down to Kate's level. She showed her strength and power over him to stop the fight. He covered his face ashamed of his actions. If anything I think Kate was more dominent at this moment. Mrs. Thomas could not even be dominent enough to control the two men, and yet Kate handled the situation brillantly and with much strength of character.

Kate comes onto the stage as a innocent third party which makes the players involved in the fight ashamed. I don't know if she's actually leading anyone, though.

This I am not sure of. Is Severn being repulsed by his betters? How is Severn suffering the same fate as Kate?

Severn fails to attract Mrs. Thomas. He's unable to overcome the husband who is better. Severn does win the fight (I think I messed that detail up in my last post), but he isn't able to win the kind of attention he wants from Mrs. Thomas. Kate, meanwhile, desires greater respect and possibly Severn's attention, but is repulsed by the wife.

[Janine]

Oh, that’s fine, Janine. I think it was answered. Unfortunately, my husband never has Friday, Saturday, or Sunday off as those are the busiest days at the restaurant. But he is home from Sunday night to Thursday afternoon, so that’s good.

Antiquarian, I just checked and you were correct; I had answered it; I must be cracking up!
Well, at least he is home now til Thurs evening. I know the weekends are a bummer for you; I can well understand.
At my age, I would rather do things on the weekdays, since weekend traffic is horrible here; and more and more I hate driving in traffic.

I don’t think Severn really wants to attract Mrs. Thomas. When they’re alone together during the thunderstorm before Mr. Thomas comes home, Severn is repulsed by his momentary attractive to Gertie.

I agree; I don't think he really does either; he is quite taken aback by her remarks.

[Virgil]

Well, I think everyone by now has gotten their concluding say on "The Old Adam." If not go ahead and continue. I would like to propose we take the summer off on the Lawrence short story thread. I know I got a busy reading schedule. I'll be reading Cormac McCarthy's The Road for the July book club forum, and reading John Banville's The Sea for the summer read, and I'm working on Shakespeare's "The Winter's Tale, and of course forever trying to get through Virgil's The Aeneid. I really would like to catch up and complete these reads. I'm not the fastest reader in the world, so I hope you'll understand if I wish to by pass Lawrence for a bit. Plus it's time to take a break. So I hope you'll forgive me.

[Janine]

Well, I think everyone by now has gotten their concluding say on "The Old Adam." If not go ahead and continue. I would like to propose we take the summer off on the Lawrence short story thread. I know I got a busy reading schedule. I'll be reading Cormac McCarthy's The Road for the July book club forum, and reading John Banville's The Sea for the summer read, and I'm working on Shakespeare's "The Winter's Tale, and of course forever trying to get through Virgil's The Aeneid. I really would like to catch up and complete these reads. I'm not the fastest reader in the world, so I hope you'll understand if I wish to by pass Lawrence for a bit. Plus it's time to take a break. So I hope you'll forgive me.

That is fine Virgil; I can well understand that mountain of reading you have ahead of you; I read slowly, too. I am glad to take this break for a few months, the hopefully restful summer. I think the break would refresh us all. We have discussed so many stories and this has been quite an achievement, thanks to everyone. We could all use a rest. I know that Antiquarian and I are both attempting to participate in the Shakespeare summer read; and I have a two visual threads I want to start; and a participant in the Shakespeare thread and myself are colaborating on a thread, that she will start soon, relating to Shakespeare - also visual...oh, yeah and then there is Chekhov...all three of us women are dedicated to that thread of Quark's.
Anyway, good luck with your reading, Virgil!

Only comment I have is concerning this story is, aren't we missing the very ending of the story? Maybe we could all just go ahead and point out some things that stand out in the ending. I noticed these tears in this passage:

"Thank you, Mr. Severn," she said coldly. Severn, dismissed, slunk out of the room. She went up to her husband, took his pathetic head upon her bosom, and pressed it there. As Severn went downstairs, he heard the few sobs of the husband, among the quick sniffing of the wife's tears. And he saw Kate, who had stood on the stairs to see all went well, climb up to her room with cold, calm face.

It is interesting to see tears in context with the non-emotional side of Mrs. Thomas. Is she shedding those tears for her husband or herself, I wonder. In this paragraph, it seems both Severn and Kate leave the scene and the husband and wife remain alone. It is interesting to note, the way the characters line up together in this story, from scene to scene; both referring to male/female, male/male, female/female.

[Dark Muse]

It would be good for me if we took the Summer off because I would have missed half the dicussion for next month as I am going to be gone a week in July

[Virgil]

Oh I commented on his tears. I said, some neanderthal.

[Quark]

I could use the time, too. I've wanted to get into the Shakespeare discussion for a while now, but haven't found time to read the play yet.

[Janine]

Quark, DM, Anti, I think we all share the Shakespeare thread dilema. I have now listened to the first disk of the play, for about the 4th time. I still can't separate all the characters entirely, so I know I need to read the text at the same time. I just have not found the time.

So I guess we have finished with this story - what does everyone think? I am satisfied, if all of you are as well.

Time to put this thread to sleep for the summer and depart for Shakespeareland! ah, 'To sleep, perchance to dream'......

[Janine]

Thank you Logos, for keeping this going; this thread means a lot to me.

Well, I just wanted to check in today and say hi to everyone. I really have been missing the forum (major forum withdrawal brings on weird symptoms) and not only missing this forum, but have been in Lawrence short story withdrawal; although, when I was without a computer for all those several weeks, I actually managed to read another Lawrence biography -that is at least the fourth I have read now, yet they are all different and quite fascinating. I hope my new found knowledge will lend itself to this forum and this thread, in particular.

I definitely wanted to announce that we will start a new story in September. I love this thread and could never depart long, you all know that. There are many more stories we have not done yet and it will be exciting to discuss them each month...I so much look forward to that. We have a good group and we have learned to discuss really well together. I guess it just took us time to get to know each other's style. I hope also, with the new upgrades to the site, we will draw other DHL enthusiasts to our discussions.

I have read several stories now ahead and have a few in mind, so it won't be difficult to choose one to begin the fall. Well, for now, back to Chekhov. I will check in here from time to time until I post the new story. I may have something I can add to the thread in the interum such as L photos or something of interest related to the stories.

[Dark Muse]

Nice to see the thread open again

[Janine]

It is that. I really missed it. Glad to see you gravitated back here, DM. September we can all start afresh; looking forward to a new story.

[Virgil]

Great, it's open. Start thinking about which story you are going to choose Janine.

[Janine]

I think I know the one I will pick, Virgil...but you know me, I have to review them first. Did you want to start a short one soon?

I am having one problem with either my browser or this thread itself. I can't hit the 'last' button and get here - the internet explorer connection page appears with no connection. Now the only way to get here to this page is to start at page 1 and work my way back, which takes me at least 4 clicks. I now know we are on page 143 but it shows all these other pages afterward, when you click on those I can't get anything but that internet explorer page. Are you all having this same problem? Also, this the connection on this particular thread is super slow.