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  1. #31
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    "Precisely. If everything is an illusion, it seems that we are owed an explanation about what everything is an illusion (OF), and those who so argue cannot provide this whilst remaining consistent."

    The everything that is illusion is in relation to the subject. There is infact a truth beyond this, beyond any everything or any subject-- okay, and this is what we measure it all by.

    When I consider this, the idea comes to mind that the illusion is the idea of separateness. For instance, that I think I am an "I" separate from my environment. Subject and environment are actually connected, interlinked, one affects the other and so they are part of each other. So in this view, subject actually disappears.

    Moksha, or liberation, occurs when we overcome this duality. But it is more than that. It is understood many different ways, in many different analogies. Plato's man of illumination, who has climbed to a level of truth-- the Buddhist, who has realized his Buddha nature; these are but two. It has been said that in truth we are more than we think we are. We are like a sleeping giant. Or you might consider how the ideals of heaven could solve our problems, and then you could set about bringing this light down to earth, so that there is peace, and there is no longer separation between what is low and what is high, what is great and what is small.

    You have expressed complete disdain for anything otherworldly. That is fine. I will attempt to explain. The Buddhists have the teaching that reality-- akin to enlightenment-- is not far away. It is immanant. We are searching for enlightenment, but it is like being in the ocean, searching for wetness. This enlightenment, the goal, is described like this in one Upanishad:

    "What the sages sought they have found at last.
    No more questions have they to ask of life."

    And while I have spoke of this as it is a singular goal, enlightenment, in truth, there are many different consciousnesses. In fact, as far as I can tell there are infinite consciousnesses. Anyway, some consciousnesses are closer to enlightenment, some are further away.

    So the basic idea I am speaking of is that there are not two worlds, not this one and another. We are not separate from reality, but there is illusion, and that is that we do not know the reality. And the ideas that our conceptions are illusions-- this is based on experience, based on the experience of revelation.

    Cheers,
    Alex

    To sum up, it is not that everything is illusion: of two illusions, the first is "I am everything." The truth is that I am part of the whole, and the second illusion is "I am not part of the whole." The first of these is mainly a moral deficiency, and the second is a question of consciousness-- we have traveled many twists and turns, as Alan Watts puts it, so far that we have completely lost track of where we started-- thus we are in illusion, or ignorance. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by NikolaiI; 07-15-2008 at 02:11 AM.

  2. #32
    Registered User jgweed's Avatar
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    I am not clear about this argument:"When I consider this, the idea comes to mind that the illusion is the idea of separateness. For instance, that I think I am an "I" separate from my environment. Subject and environment are actually connected, interlinked, one affects the other and so they are part of each other. So in this view, subject actually disappears."

    To say that subject and object are connected and interlinked, and that ONE effects the OTHER is one thing. But does this mean that they are the "same"? For if subject and object "disappear" then how do they interact one with another?

    Again I am unclear what is meant by "The everything that is illusion is in relation to the subject. There is infact a truth beyond this, beyond any everything or any subject-- okay, and this is what we measure it all by."

    If everything is an illusion, and utterly dependent on the Self (which disappears into the non-Self) then how can the Self get beyond the illusion to know truths that are not illusory? When the criteria for differing between truth and illusion would be subject to the same illusion, to argue the contrary would be to argue that not everything is illusion.

    We seem to agree that there are not two worlds, only the one in which we exist and travail. Where we disagree is about the ability of the self to make sense of it and to understand it; and whether to "know reality" can mean ONLY to know it absolutely and with perfect certainty.
    Cheers,
    John
    Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

  3. #33
    amor fati CognitiveArtist's Avatar
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    Hi blp, it is always good to find people who appreciate Zizek and psychoanalysis. It is a fascinating body of thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by blp View Post
    I think Zizek's quite explicit about the the Kantian sublime and the Lacanian Real being pretty much the same idea. It's interesting though that if Kant had used a term like 'the Real' he would probably have meant something different - his notion of transcendental reality, which is not just beyond symbolisation, but beyond our capacity to perceive at all. Or

    is that really so different after all? I mean, what is really beyond symbolisation other than that which is completely beyond experience? In which case, what does this mean for the definition of the sublime?
    It is interesting how close Zizek and Kant come. I'm not sure what in Kant is most parallel to the Lacanian real. Those things-in-themselves, noumena or the transcendental reality (I can't really distinguish) seem like Kant's version of the real. As you said, his notion of the real seems to be beyond our capacity or perceive at all. It may be that I don't know enough Kant, but I find it hard to imagine this stuff (whatever it is) which is beyond our experience/perception is philosophically supportable.
    I think though a difference between Lacan's the real and Kant's noumena is, I believe, Kant considered the noumena to be really existent which is why Kant is described as having a metaphysics of idealism. Lacan on the other hand, (albeit later unlike earlier in his career, I believe) said the real didn't actually exist objectively, and was only apart of human experience. Yet the real is apart of human experience which is never experienced fully, but is experience of being overshadowed or overwhelmed, as the real is never fully present or fully experienced (like much of Lacan's thought, which stresses the fleeting nature of things in our mind, e.g. the subject being an empty signifier). By the way, I have referred to this useful book Jacques Lacan by Sean Homer to clarify my understandings, though I'm not sure I understood it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by blp View Post
    it seems to me that people go around happily claiming that the sublime is beyond symbolisation all the time, yet keep managing to convey it through symbols, whether in music, literature or visual art. Not an easy brief, I'll grant, but it does happen.
    Art has a strange relationship with philosophical thinkers like Kant, Heidegger and (I think) Lacan. They on one hand seem compatible and support to some degree a hermeneutics which declares that we can only encounter things which we interpret, whilst simultaneously trying to affirm that art is in some way incommensurable or ineffable.
    I'm not sure how Kant reconciles the elusive nature of the sublime with the incredible fathoming ablilities Kant bestows upon the subject. Lacan though I can guess. One thing first, I somewhat incorrectly described the Lacanian real when I called it "that which we lose and cannot conceive of when we gain language". That which avoids being made into a sign, or that which cannot be represented in language is better. The idea of the real being before we gain language suggests the real is something primordial, existent in infancy. Lacan though seems to emphasise that the real exists throughout human development. Also that the real is often experienced beyond infancy, and it is the real which we try to communicate (put into language, words) yet we are always unable to. The real, I understand, frames what we talk about, by the real being something which we can never pin down (the real is the thing we desire to say. Yet in Lacanian psychoanalysis a subject never can achieve what is desired, as desire is a surplus, something unattained, as for Lacan you cannot desire what you have).
    Lacan's psychoanalysis, I believe, is more able to cater to slippery and sublime qualities then Kant's philosophical project because Lacan is near post-structuralism and thus, through post-structuralist logic, emphasises that the things we experience and think of are decentered and not fixed. I'm not sure about Lacan's ideas on art, but I'm guessing art relays (I'm avoiding using the verb "communicates") to the subject (person) what was lost when they started living as a subject (that is, a language-being, as language creates the subject and bestows upon them their humanity). Perhaps art then is like a master signifier, some vague identity through which people experience and think of the world (for example, other master signifiers are gothic subculture, "Australian-ness" or catholicism. A master signifier is pretty much something that is irreducible to it's parts).

    Quote Originally Posted by blp View Post
    Two other philosophical ideas seem pertinent, Derrida's 'There is nothing outside the text' and Wittgenstein's 'Whereof we cannot speak, we must be silent.' I would say, the latter could refer to Kant's Transcendental Reality, the former could refer to everything within Kant's Phenomenal (perceivable) Reality and are, thereby, not mutually exclusive. The sublime, then, and perhaps the Lacanian Real too, would be the furthest limit, the point where the ability to symbolise experience threatens to break down.
    I agree that these specific quotes from these two thinkers are relevant, yet I'm not sure I could rewardingly discuss the matter by throwing these two thinkers into the juggle. To try and summarise the discussion though, it seems to be revolving around the idea that what is sublime (for Kant) and what is real (for Lacan) cannot easily, if at all, be pinned down or ensnared in language.


    Quote Originally Posted by blp View Post
    Lacan's Real actually does introduce a new idea, a second level of remove from 'reality', as follows: first, already, as a condition of experience, we must be separated from Kant's Transcendental Reality, but are able to experience, prior to the acquisition of language, The Real. Second, the acquisition of langauge separates us inexorably from this initial, non-linguistic experience of Phenomenal Reality.
    The first point I completely agree with. Lacan has no actual concern for describing what reality is really like, and what human nature is really like, therefore he avoids things like Kant's transcendental reality. This is done (later in his career) by Lacan's stating that "the real" is just apart of our experience and is not objective, existent matter, the real is just what the experience of "brute matter" is like to us, as human beings. Moreover, Lacan at the end of the day is just concerned with training analysts, and using a provisional language to discuss the human psyche. Lacan is not concerned with actual description; first and foremost Lacan is about psychotherapy.
    Your second point is as I was mistakenly talking in my last post, I believe. In Lacanian psychoanalysis the real exists after the acquisition of language. Before the acquisition of language the person is not "human" (that is, not a [human] subject).

    Quote Originally Posted by blp View Post
    This idea simultaneously has an interesting psychological effect on me, in that talking (writing) about it seems to rather wake me up. At the same time, it seems inadequate. From what I can understand in Zizek, the Real is a lot more than just a baby's eye view of the world.
    I agree. I think the one incongruence in this discussion is a part of my first post. The Lacanian real is an important order or register (one order of three, Lacan's triad, the imaginary, the symbolic and the real) throughout the human life. This importance of the real is seen with art, also the real has a relationship with Lacan's desire (desire is for Lacan really important).


    The real is something which occupies a lot of Lacanian scholarship because, amongst other ideas, Lacan's idea of the real was developed late in his career. Lacan's thought changed significantly, he was really a thinker who was willing to revise anything and everything to make his thought more superior. Furthermore, Lacan's psychoanalysis is such a rich system or discourse and there are extensive relationships with every concept. I'm ignorant of how important the real is. After understanding the predicates to one concept it's really a matter of fathoming how that concept connects with other concepts. I'm interested in Lacan and Zizek because their psychoanalysis is such a conceptually unique discourse, also it is the most holistic body of knowledge I know. Learning it is like laying siege to a fortress, yet it's not without enjoyment


    This seems to accord with Lacan's notion that the infant experiences its own being as fragmentary. At the Lacanian 'mirror stage', the child becomes fascinated with its own image precisely because it presents a more coherent bodily image than the child is aware of.

    Quote Originally Posted by blp View Post
    It seems self evident that, ultimately, some greater ability is being acquired, the ability to function and manipulate the world to meet one's needs etc., but it's worth bearing in mind that a loss of some sort occurs too. And perhaps its in our terrifying/wonderful experiences of the sublime that we are able to acknowledge that loss and give it its due (i.e. admit that we've lost is not just terrifying and debilitating, but wonderful too). This would say a lot a lot a lot about the really extreme difficulty of being human.
    I don't think the real is lost, as stated above, but this text reminded me of an important loss to a human. If I remember a person becomes separated from the world when it enters the mirror stage and a person becomes alienated (or "barred" or "split" [these terms are synonyms, as I've learned Lacan is word crazy, and his thought developed and change a lot]) when he/she becomes a subject: when the person acquires language.


    I have no illusions that all I've managed to do is light a match in the thick darkness of Lacan's psychoanalysis. I'm not sure what art means for Lacan & Zizek, and how art for both of them relates to the real. I don't know how important the real is, and I certainly don't know all of Lacan's concepts which the real relates to. I've just been talking about the relationship between the real and art, and Lacan's real and Kant's sublime.

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    Last edited by NikolaiI; 07-16-2008 at 03:57 PM.

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    Registered User DapperDrake's Avatar
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    Lots of interesting thoughts! getting too late for me to read it all or reply. I really must get that copy of "critique of pure reason" off the shelf and have a proper go at it, the size and language keep putting me off
    Suicide carried off many. Drink and the devil took care of the rest. - R L Stevenson

    Currently Reading: Dead Souls - Gogol

  6. #36
    Registered User jgweed's Avatar
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    Comment 1: "Those things-in-themselves, noumena or the transcendental reality (I can't really distinguish) seem like Kant's version of the real. As you said, his notion of the real seems to be beyond our capacity or perceive at all. It may be that I don't know enough Kant, but I find it hard to imagine this stuff (whatever it is) which is beyond our experience/perception is philosophically supportable."

    It is, as I understand him, Kant's argument is that noumena are somewhat like figments of the understanding; and his point is that any discussion of them as objects of possible knowledge are illegitimate. Kant would be the last one to say, therefore, that noumena are real.

    Comment 2. "...the size and language keep putting me off." To put it mildly Kant is very dry reading; somewhat easier to read, and certainly shorter than the Critique is his Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics, which covers as a "preliminary exercise" the same material.

    Comment 3."Anyway the truth is beyond words, conceptions." This seems then, to make either knowledge about truth, or discussion about it, impossible, especially from a philosophical or rational point of view.
    Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

  7. #37
    amor fati CognitiveArtist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgweed View Post
    Comment 1: "Those things-in-themselves, noumena or the transcendental reality (I can't really distinguish) seem like Kant's version of the real. As you said, his notion of the real seems to be beyond our capacity or perceive at all. It may be that I don't know enough Kant, but I find it hard to imagine this stuff (whatever it is) which is beyond our experience/perception is philosophically supportable."

    It is, as I understand him, Kant's argument is that noumena are somewhat like figments of the understanding; and his point is that any discussion of them as objects of possible knowledge are illegitimate. Kant would be the last one to say, therefore, that noumena are real.
    Do you know if Kant thinks the noumena are existent? I thought they were in some way the independent, essences of things (therefore the "real" reality), which exist whether people do or do not. Perhaps Kant is just referring to the impossibility of metaphysics when he talks about noumena? My qualm about Kant's noumena is he seemed to suppose they exist, and then that we can't know anything about them. If noumena were hypothetical ("if there were these essences of things [noumena], we could know nothing about them"), then I'd appreciate Kant's point.

  8. #38
    unidentified hit record blp's Avatar
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    I'm going to try a longer response to your long post when I have more time, CA.

    I thought the noumena were simply things about which our knowledge was so utterly absent that we could not even say whether they existed or not. God, the soul etc. In this sense, they are different from transcendental reality, which, I think, Kant does believe exists, it's just that it's not possible for us to perceive it.
    Last edited by blp; 07-16-2008 at 06:14 AM.

  9. #39
    Registered User jgweed's Avatar
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    In the third Chapter of the Critique, Kant writes:
    "The understanding...at the same time forms, apart from that relation [object of cognition and cognitor], a representation of an object in itself, and so comes to represent itself as also being as also being able to form concepts of such objects" (B307).
    It seems that Kant is indicating in this and what follows that noumena arise from the understanding postulating "some thing," or permanent substance that is the cause of appearances. Obviously for him, this assumption is illicit because independent of experience. Kant would say, under this reading, not that noumena do or do not "exist" but that it makes no sense to talk about them at all.
    Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

  10. #40
    unidentified hit record blp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgweed View Post
    In the third Chapter of the Critique, Kant writes:
    "The understanding...at the same time forms, apart from that relation [object of cognition and cognitor], a representation of an object in itself, and so comes to represent itself as also being as also being able to form concepts of such objects" (B307).
    It seems that Kant is indicating in this and what follows that noumena arise from the understanding postulating "some thing," or permanent substance that is the cause of appearances. Obviously for him, this assumption is illicit because independent of experience. Kant would say, under this reading, not that noumena do or do not "exist" but that it makes no sense to talk about them at all.
    This sounds as if it may be an address to the ontological proof of the existence of God, a version of which had been propounded by Descartes - one cannot have a concept of God without there having been a God to create that concept in one's mind. At a glance, without having read as far as you in the book, it looks as if he's saying, no, we really can't know at all what the 'thing in itself' that is the source of any of our concepts is. Not at all.

  11. #41
    Registered User jgweed's Avatar
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    That is my understanding of Kant's position. Further, I doubt that Kant would even go so far as to say that a thing-in-itself (noumena) is the source or cause of appearances. Reason, when it transcends its proper scope (that which gives real knowledge) ends up with what he calls Antimonies, or opposites, each of which conflict with the other, and each of which "can be shown by equally clear, evident, and irresistible proofs." In the Prolegomena, Kant provides examples:
    "Thesis: The world has, as to time and space, a beginning (limit).
    Antithesis: The world is, as to time and space, infinite."
    (Paragraph 51. Beck translation).

    If one strictly follows the argumentation of the Critique, it does appear that "God exists" and "God does not exist" is another example.
    But we must remember that subsequently, Kant did offer arguments for the existence of God, immortality of the soul, and freedom. Many commentators question the consistency of these proofs with the Critique's conclusions.
    Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

  12. #42
    unidentified hit record blp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgweed View Post
    But we must remember that subsequently, Kant did offer arguments for the existence of God, immortality of the soul, and freedom. Many commentators question the consistency of these proofs with the Critique's conclusions.
    That does seem rather disappointing! Oh, except, perhaps, for the 'freedom' part. I think I've read the essay in which he defends this idea. It actually seems all of a piece with his Transcendental Aesthetic. Nothing to do with the object thing in itself creating the concept. What he actually says, I think, is that, because truth is not external to us, but is a product of our perceptual faculties, we don't need any authoritarian figures to tell us what it is. I think that's it. Sorry, I've probably made a complete hash of it. Anyway, it was a good reading experience. I spent most of it feeling irritated and oppressed by his defense of the idea of absolute truth, then, suddenly, as I realised it was a defense of freedom, burst out laughing - with delight, not scorn!

  13. #43
    amor fati CognitiveArtist's Avatar
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    I've come across a very helpful source which I will relay, as it explains Kant's noumena and thing in itself as best I can understand it.

    1. 1. Kant’s conception of the thing in itself.

    Kant begins his chapter on Transcendental Aesthetics with this enigmatic passage:
    In whatever way and through whatever means a cognition may relate to objects, that through which it relates immediately to them, and at which all thought as a means is directed as an end, is intuition. This, however, takes place only insofar as the object is given to us; but this in turn, at least for us humans, is possible only if it affects the mind in a certain way. (A19, B33, italics added.)
    In this Kant clearly says that objects are given to us through a certain affection they have on the mind. This leads him to making a distinction between things in themselves and thing as they appear to us. The latter are the objects as we experience them, the former are the ground or cause of these appearances. In the preface to the second edition of Critique of Pure Reason, he says the following: “[C]ognition [Erkenntnis] reaches appearances only, leaving the thing in itself as something actual for itself but uncognized by us.” (Bxx.)
    Thus the thing in itself is the ground of everything we can cognize, yet it itself is beyond the reach of our cognition. The thing in itself is then basically an object considered as independent of the (human) cognition, whereas the appearances are objects as viewed through the cognition.
    The precise nature of this division has been the source of numerous philosophical problems and proposed solutions, because as seen in the quote above, he himself gives only rather vague explanations on how exactly this division should be understood.
    (underlines by CognitiveArtist)

    Kant's method, transcendental reflection, is a piece of the puzzle which made this all, for me, more understandable

    1. 2. Of Kant’s transcendental philosophy.

    In his transcendental philosophy Kant examines the necessary conditions of possible human experience, that is, what sort of prerequisites must be set for the things in themselves in order for them to be able to be represented by appearances. This method is called transcendental reflection and it will play an important part in our future considerations.

    ...

    Kant claims that human cognition is always discursive, that is, it represents objects. This discursivity thesis is best understood through its counterpart, intuitive intelligence, which would be able to grasp objects directly as they are without any mediating representation.
    The exact philosophy of mind behind Kant’s view is very complex, but I will give a brief and simplified account of it, so that the presentation is easier to follow.
    Kant distinguishes two parts of human cognition: sensibility (Sinnlichkeit) and understanding (Verstand). Objects cause (in one way or another, cf. quote in 1. 1. [the Kant quote above]) sensations (Empfindung) in our sensibility, which the sensibility sets into its forms, time and space, producing (empirical) intuitions. Understanding then cognizes common features in the intuitions and puts them together as a mark (Merkmals). These marks are thus derived from experience and correspond to the sensed properties. These marks correspond to the content of the concept and together with the form of understanding produce the whole concept itself.


    Therefore Kant’s view is that our experiences are in a sense “filtered” through the forms of understanding and sensibility. The forms of understanding are called the categories. According to Kant there are 12 of them, and they correspond to the Table of Logic, which represents the basic logical operations. (Cf. A70-80, B95-106, Prol, 61.) Even though the experiences are caused by the things in themselves, they do not appear as they are. It is worth nothing that the objects are not merely distorted by our cognition, but their form is completely constructed by it. This means that the things in themselves are not, or so the standard view goes, one or many, nor are they spatiotemporal in any ordinary sense. They are completely alien, and wholly unimaginable to us.
    My final snippet is of the beginning of an argument which claims by the nature and/or qualities (of the lack of qualities) of the thing in itself (I paused here for a moment on whether or not to include the last 2 paragraphs. I ended up including them as they helpfully explain Kant's argument for the existence of the thing in itself)

    2. 1. The unintelligibility argument.

    Kant’s claims that we cannot know the thing in itself calls for the question: how can Kant then claim that they exist? It surely seems at first blush that this is an absurd stance, but as we will see, the whole argument is based on a misunderstanding of Kant’s transcendental method of reflection.
    Kant’s account of transcendental reflection is given in the following passages:

    Reflection […] is the consciousness of the relation of given representations to our various sources of cognition. […] The first question prior to all further treatment of our representation is this: In which cognitive faculty do they belong together? […] [A]ll judgments, indeed all comparisons, require a reflection, i.e., a distinction of the cognitive power to which the given concepts belong. The action through which I make the comparison of representations in general with the cognitive power in which they are situated, and through which I distinguish whether they are to be compared to one another as belonging to the pure understanding or to pure intuition, I call transcendental reflection. (A260-1; B316-7.)
    [T]ranscendental reflection is a duty from which no one can escape if he would judge anything about things a priori. (A263, B319.)
    Transcendental reflection is thus the action through which the conditions of experience are exposed. As Westphal aptly puts it: “Kant uses transcendental reflection to identify several of our key cognitive capacities by identifying several of our key cognitive incapacities.” (KTPR, 2.) The basic idea is, then, that Kant is simply charting the borders of what can and what cannot be cognized by finding out the necessary conditions for our cognition, i.e. the conditions without which no cognition in general would be possible.
    From this it is relatively easy to see that Kant is merely maintaining that we could not possibly know anything about any objects that did not fulfil these necessary conditions – a claim that is true on the basis of the definition of ‘necessary condition of cognition’. Thus Kant is not, as such, making a claim about the thing in itself, but about the capabilities of our cognition.
    Now there are, however, other problems involved with this part of Kant’s view. One could ask, and indeed many have, about the grounds of Kant’s claim of the existence of such objects. It is one thing to accept that we cannot know anything about such objects that do not exhaust the requirements set for possible knowledge, but quite another thing to claim that these hypothetical objects actually exist.
    This is where the transcendental reflection again steps in. Let us follow Kannisto’s footsteps here. Surely enough, we experience. Now this is only possible if there is something to experience. If what we experience, on the other hand, were fully the production of our cognition, then we could not err – and the possibility of error is a necessary condition of knowledge (or, it could be asked, what would knowledge mean without the possibility of error?). (Kannisto, 321-2.) Such a view would also fail to account for why things (seem to) persist even when we do not perceive them, or why we seem to share our world.
    This leads Kant to the claim that something external to us causes these experiences – hence the thing in itself. (Ibid, 322.) In short: Kant is not making claims about the noumenal realm, but of the borders of the phenomenal realm. He is, so to speak, arguing from a box that because something comes into the box, something must be outside the box. Therefore, his claims here are not inconsistent at all, and arguments stating otherwise arise from the failure to understand Kant’s transcendental method.
    I get the method Kant uses to philosophise about experience and what must exist to cause the experience. I still am at odds with the existence of thing in itself/noumena, and also Kant's project, yet there is nothing I can really think of which is faulty. To put the cherry on the cake with this precise summation
    the thrust of Kant’s argument is that we cannot know anything about the thing in itself (apart from its transcendentally deduced existence), and therefore cannot in particular know them to be for example spatiotemporal.
    I did aim for trophy quotes, so I hope my lengthy post isn't too cumbersome. I did cut the above passages out of an all around useful 18 page document on Kant's Nomena and thing in itself.

    The helpful website with a lot on Kant, and the specific document.

    And the specific document.
    Last edited by CognitiveArtist; 07-16-2008 at 01:09 PM. Reason: improved picture

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    Registered User jgweed's Avatar
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    Continuing the discussion, Kant distinguishes between a positive and a negative definition of noumena (B307):
    “If by 'noumenon' we mean a thing so far as it is not an object of our senseible intuition, and so abstract from our mode of intuiting it, this is a noumenon in the negarive sense of the term. But if we understand by it an object of a non-sensible intuition, we thereby presuppose a special mode of intuition, namely the intellectual, which is not that which we posses, and of which we cannot comprehend even the possibility. This would be “noumenon' in the positive sense of the term.”

    Now obviously, Kant rejects the positive sense, since the noumenon would be an object of an intellectual intuition which we do not enjoy. The negative sense then requires some explanation, since Kant writes that “The doctrine of sensibility is also the doctrine on noumena in the negative sense.”
    If I may summarise Copleston's discussion of this duality of noumena in his History of Philosophy (Vol.6, Part II,Chapter 12) this may be because the negative concept is necessary as a limiting concept---things considered INSOFAR as they do NOT appear to us; for we cannot say with certainty that appearances exhaust all that can be called real, nor can we say that reality is TOTALLY created by the Self (traditional idealism, for example).
    Since the Kantian Self contributes only the formal, formative parts of experience, we must, it seems, keep the distinction between these formed phenomena and something-else-in-addition-but-not-phenomena which we call noumena, or things-in-themselves, even if we cannot know their characteristics or even if they actually exist.

    Bibliographic note: for those interested, the first edition of the Critique of Pure Reason, translated by Meiklejohn, is available on-line at Project Gutenburg. This lacks, though, cross-references to the Prussian edition making citations difficult.
    http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/wor...=5144&pageno=8
    Last edited by jgweed; 07-18-2008 at 09:04 AM.
    Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

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    What interesting discussions! Thank you all who have given time to it and those who will.
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