The Winter's Tale - Act I

[Virgil]

Virgil and Antiquarian, take heart - I feel just as behind actually; I still need to re-listen to the audiofile; should be doing that now. We are only discussing why Leontes seems so rash in his assumptions. We haven't gotten very far into the text, I don't think; at least I hope not.

Why Leontes is rash is the key to the play. It needs full discussion. I have thoughts on it, but not ready to express them yet. I completed my full read last night and now I just need to read Act I again, while taking notes. I may post my thoughts on this tonight.

[Nightshade]

notes?! does this mean Ill be spending all summer semi studying?

[sofia82]

notes?! does this mean Ill be spending all summer semi studying?

Yes, it seems so. I have to read Act I again to find this rashness in Leon line by line and other subjects, too. First of all, I want to finish the whole play.

[Quark]

Doesn't it seem odd he would leave her for so long? I think the time reference someone did mentioned, amounted to how much actual time, that he had been in this kingdom visiting?

I'm not sure exactly how long Polixenes has been visiting, but it seems like the first scene with the lords justifies his visit. I didn't see anything wrong with the visit in itself.

The handclasps links the two events.

Wait, which two events get linked?

Of course, but had he not acted rationally instead of rashly, there would be no basis for this play. This beginning reminds me of the Thomas Hardy novel "The Mayor of Casterbridge"

That's a good parallel. In both cases, rashness is the character's inherent flaw. Circumstances conspire to give them the opportunity to act on their shortcoming, but they don't create the inherent flaw that the characters have. The only difference between between the two protagonists is that Henchard's rashness is more of a permanent trait and Leontes's is more like temporary madness.

Why Leontes is rash is the key to the play.

Well, yes and no. Discovering what makes him susceptible to jealousy seems important, but pinpointing the exact moment when he becomes jealous or what actions make him jealous are less important. When isn't important because Leontes becomes noticeably envious 150 lines into the play. It hardly seems worth it to pour over the text to pick which individual line is the turning point. I suppose one could argue over whether it starts before or after the beginning play, but there isn't anything to make us conclude one way or the other. Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

Leontes, himself, is to blame. This contrasts with Shakespeare's other jealous protagonist Othello, who is forced into jealousy by circumstances. In that play, the reader is curious to know what actions caused his downfall--after all there is a plot to this effect. The jealousy in The Winters Tale, however, lacks any rational basis. If we're to look for a cause, then, we have to inspect Leontes character more than the external actions which are irrelevant to Leontes.

The most salient characteristic of Leontes is his weakness, and this makes him very susceptible to jealousy. I already talked a little about his overly passive method of argument, but other details indicate the weakness of his character. He mentions his his heart having tremors, and the speech I quoted above shows his inability to control his own mind. This would make him susceptible to any slight impression that comes his way. Weakness, then, is probably his largest shortcoming, but there are possibly others. One could argue that his paranoid and cynical outlook is a result of his jealousy, but it might also be a preexisting condition of Leontes's mind.

I completed my full read last night and now I just need to read Act I again, while taking notes. I may post my thoughts on this tonight.

Oh, this better be good Virgil. You keep building the anticipation.

[bouquin]

I suppose it's because Hermione argues more convincingly than her husband. Leontes merely asks him stay, but doesn't addresses any of the reasons Polixenes has for leaving. Hermione, however, actively refutes Polixenes main excuse for leaving. The Bohemian king fears that enemies will overwhelm his state while he's away, but Hermione soothes that fear with news she's heard.

Another cause for Hermione's success is that she's a much stronger character--as are most of the women in this play--than her husband. She treats this conversation like a battle and chides her husband for being too passive: "You, sir, charge him too coldly." She then threatens him (albeit playfully) with imprisonment if he tries to leave. Hermione convinces because she's both more tactical and stronger than her husband in this situation.

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

[sofia82]

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

i think so. It seems that Leon is jealous of Hermione herself because of her talents more than her relationship with Pil.

[Virgil]

Well, yes and no. Discovering what makes him susceptible to jealousy seems important, but pinpointing the exact moment when he becomes jealous or what actions make him jealous are less important. When isn't important because Leontes becomes noticeably envious 150 lines into the play. It hardly seems worth it to pour over the text to pick which individual line is the turning point. I suppose one could argue over whether it starts before or after the beginning play, but there isn't anything to make us conclude one way or the other. Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

I did say "why" not "when." Don't you know your interrogative pronouns?

Oh, this better be good Virgil. You keep building the anticipation.

I hope it will be good. Tonight I promise. I had something yesterday happen which threw me out of kilter all day.

[Quark]

I did say "why" not "when." Don't you know your interrogative pronouns?

I'm sure I'm quite horrible with pronouns (honestly, who isn't?), but I think the problem wasn't with pronouns. It was actually with paragraphs. I crudely sutured two separate ideas together in one clump of text rather than give them their own paragraphs. Specifically, I tried to answer both "when" and "why," and it got confusing. I answered the "when" first, but later I tackled "why" as well. Here's the part where I talk about why Leontes is jealous, and how important it is to the play:

what actions make him jealous are less important

Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

I go on to say, though, that we should look for Leontes motives within his own character. Since the provocation is so minute, it really can't be the source of his jealousy. Really, it has to come from Leontes himself. Therefore, rather than pour over the first 150 lines trying to find what makes Leontes jealous, we should ask ourselves what part of Leontes is prone to jealousy.

I hope it will be good. Tonight I promise. I had something yesterday happen which threw me out of kilter all day.

That's good. Are you going to write something on Leontes?

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

i think so. It seems that Leon is jealous of Hermione herself because of her talents more than her relationship with Pil.

That may be a stretch. The only line that directly refers to that is when Leontes points out the obvious and says that he would not have been able to make him stay. Unless you perceive bitterness in his tone, I don't see any jealousy there. At least, there isn't anything in the words themselves that would make me suspicious. Can you think of any other lines that might make Leontes seem jealous of Hermione's skilled diplomacy?

[Janine]

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

See you on Monday; I will drop in occasionally since I have been reading the play. I had some good ideas also but no time to post them.
Maybe on Monday. Have a nice weekend, Bye~

[Nightshade]

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

See you on Monday; I will drop in occasionally since I have been reading the play. I had some good ideas also but no time to post them.
Maybe on Monday. Have a nice weekend, Bye~

Umm Janine, Im fairly certain that we will still be reading the winters tale in august so we wont have go too far by monday ..
well hope your computers feeling better soon, being computerless is a horrible fate..

[Virgil]

I'm not sure how I catch up. I cannot respond to all points made. Let me get to what I think is critical.

I think it of the utmost importance to understanding this play in answering the question of why Leontes turns on his wife and friends. This is the act from which all other acts of the play stem, the first cause, if you will. I find Act I, Scene 2 an powerful and intense scene. As good as anything in Shakespeare.

I thought Leonetes' jealousy was very rash and unproven and cruel. He did not try the man in question, his supposed friend but went ahead with plans to poison him immediately. I don't know how much more rash one could be. In his rashness he wounds many lives.

Is it just jealously? It is possible to read it thus. Unfortunately it goes beyond the bounds of common jealousy. Perhaps he interprets Hermione's persuasion as a indication of a relationship between Polixenes and Hermione, but look at Leontes in his conversation with Camillo:

CAMILLO
He would not stay at your petitions: made
His business more material.

LEONTES
Didst perceive it?

Aside

They're here with me already, whispering, rounding
'Sicilia is a so-forth:' 'tis far gone,
When I shall gust it last. How came't, Camillo,
That he did stay?
256-62

"Whispering"?

And when he asks Camillo directly about his wife:

LEONTES
Ay, but why?

CAMILLO
To satisfy your highness and the entreaties
Of our most gracious mistress.

LEONTES
Satisfy!
The entreaties of your mistress! satisfy!
Let that suffice. I have trusted thee, Camillo,
With all the nearest things to my heart, as well
My chamber-councils, wherein, priest-like, thou
Hast cleansed my bosom, I from thee departed
Thy penitent reform'd: but we have been
Deceived in thy integrity, deceived
In that which seems so.
276-87

Decived? But based on what does he make this assertion? "IN that which seems so" Leontes is seeing something that is beyond the surface. And of couse Camillo doesn't see it and asserts that. But here's Leontes:

LEONTES
Is whispering nothing?
Is leaning cheek to cheek? is meeting noses?
Kissing with inside lip? stopping the career
Of laughing with a sigh?--a note infallible
Of breaking honesty--horsing foot on foot?
Skulking in corners? wishing clocks more swift?
Hours, minutes? noon, midnight? and all eyes
Blind with the pin and web but theirs, theirs only,
That would unseen be wicked? is this nothing?
Why, then the world and all that's in't is nothing;
The covering sky is nothing; Bohemia nothing;
My wife is nothing; nor nothing have these nothings,
If this be nothing.
334-46

Again whisperings, he's hearing things. Then "cheek to cheek" is quite possible something he's seen. Faces accidently coming together. Then "meeting of noses"? Huh? Still possible, but "kissing with the inside lip"? Wait a second, that's something that is either true or false. And then

stopping the career
Of laughing with a sigh?--a note infallible
Of breaking honesty--horsing foot on foot?

He's really seeing a lot of things here. And then,

Skulking in corners? wishing clocks more swift?
Hours, minutes? noon, midnight? and all eyes
Blind with the pin and web but theirs, theirs only,

Wow, now he's reading their minds, "wishing the clocks ore swift." This is hulluciantion. The man is sick, mentally ill. And Camillo even responds as such:

CAMILLO
Good my lord, be cured
Of this diseased opinion, and betimes;
For 'tis most dangerous.
347-49

More than the opinion is diseased. The King is paranoid. Read over this scene again and notice two operative words that keep coming up: "fear" and "disease". This is not the same jealousy of Othello. This is a mental illness I think.

It seems to me as a kind of madness, without any investigation and questioning deciding on poisoning a King is not rational at all. About Camillo's accepting Leonetes plot and then revealing the plot to Polixenes, here is the justification of his act:

Yes I agree. It is not rational, but I think it's more than a jumbled mind as in Othello. Here it is a diseased mind. I think such a distinction can be made.

What do you make of Leontes' jealousy? And what do you make of Camillo's behaviour?

I think Camillo's behavior is quite natural and rational. He sees a sick King who orders him to poison another. I guess for a Renaissance courtier he may be more noble than the average since he does not carry out the task. But he pulls together a plan to escape with Polixenes and saves himself as well. By failing to carry out the task, he will no doubt be killed.

I think one question we have to answer is whether or not Leontes paranoid jealousy is in existence before Hermione convinces Polixenes to remain. That's what seems to set Leontes off.

well, that is a good question, and we don't quite see it at the very beginning of the scene. He wishes Poli to stay and actually pushes the Queen to persuade his friend. It does seem odd. But the hullucinations Leontes mentions later are things could only have occured earlier than this scene. So I would have to think that at the beginning of the scene Leontes is just being politically savy.

[LadyWentworth]

Ah, I see this is the chosen one.

Boy, I know we are only on Act I, but the conversation has really started. I will have to dig out my Complete Works and get started then, don't ya think?

I read over the comments, but I will have to read this play again before I can comment on anything. So I think I should get started then before I get too far behind.

[Virgil]

Ah, I see this is the chosen one.

Boy, I know we are only on Act I, but the conversation has really started. I will have to dig out my Complete Works and get started then, don't ya think?

I read over the comments, but I will have to read this play again before I can comment on anything. So I think I should get started then before I get too far behind.

It would be nice if you could join us. You're not far behind. You can read the first act in a half hour.

[Quark]

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

I was wondering where you disappeared to, Janine. Hopefully you can solve the computer problem soon.

I think it of the utmost importance to understanding this play in answering the question of why Leontes turns on his wife and friends. This is the act from which all other acts of the play stem, the first cuase, if you will.

That's definitely true. Leontes's jealousy is the germ of the conflict, and the rest of the plot grows out from it. What do you think his envy says about the play, though? If we agree that it's important, then we have to tell how it's important. It certainly sets things in motion, but what else. Does it effect the themes of the play? Perhaps it changes how we think of the other characters?

Perhaps he interprets Hermione's persuasion as a indication of a relationship between Polixenes and Hermione

I think so. The quotes you posted seem to show that. Janine and I posted some other parts of the conversation that prompt his jealousy, too. Janine pointed out that the tone Hermione uses with Polixenes is much warmer than that which she regards her husband. The Leontes's first aside shows that he's bothered by this. Also, I posted something about the uncomfortable association Leontes keeps making. He mentions the handclasp as a symbol of matrimony, and then Hermione clasps hands with Polixenes. This might prompt his jealousy, too. When we look at all of this combined it's easy to see how Leontes's mind could consider infedelity. Leontes, however, goes beyond that. His imagination turns it into a certainty. He bemoans this (in the quote I keep posting), but he's powerless to stop it.

More than the opinion is diseased. The King is paranoid. Read over this scene again and notice two operative words that keep coming up: "fear" and "disease". This is not the same jealousy of Othello. This is a mental illness I think.

It's clear that he's acting irrationally, but haven't we all done this? We sometimes get an idea, and then start reinterpreting everything around us with that idea. Sometimes this can get out of hand, too. Leontes is obviously an extreme example, but I don't think what he's doing is necessarily deranged. "All too human" may be a better description.

[Virgil]

I was wondering where you disappeared to, Janine. Hopefully you can solve the computer problem soon.

Yes, she wanted me to tell you. But she beat me to it. She may be out of a computer for a while.

That's definitely true. Leontes's jealousy is the germ of the conflict, and the rest of the plot grows out from it. What do you think his envy says about the play, though? If we agree that it's important, then we have to tell how it's important. It certainly sets things in motion, but what else. Does it effect the themes of the play? Perhaps it changes how we think of the other characters?

Absolutely we need to put it in the context of the entire play. Why not wait until we reach some conclusions on the other Acts?

It's clear that he's acting irrationally, but haven't we all done this? We sometimes get an idea, and then start reinterpreting everything around us with that idea. Sometimes this can get out of hand, too. Leontes is obviously an extreme example, but I don't think what he's doing is necessarily deranged. "All too human" may be a better description.

Oh? Ploting to kill your friend and throwing your wife in jail all on the basis of one incident? I think we're going to disagree on this Quark. Why does Shakespeare use the word "disease" several times throughout the act?