D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Hello Everyone It is me, again! Seems I thought about posting more text; then bingo - about 6 or more new posts came in concerning this present text. Ok, so rather then feel bogged down myself responding to each and every one of those, I simply read them all and pretty much agree with the conclusions you all came up with and I think now basically, we all agree.

I too do not see the scene with Severn and the little child as sexual; I think everything mentioned is quite natural to a 3 yr old. They can be very precocious and a little naughtly at times and they can be argumentive at that age and stubborn; especially about going to bed; I did not see anything that unusual or deviant about her behavior, only perhaps the licking kiss, which also was just a smarty kind of gesture that some kids will pull; it is not that unusual. I think Severn, if anything knew it was not nice as seen from the adult perspective and so he discouraged the child from continuing. He could think she was imitating adults and thus shedding her babyhood and her pure innocense, also. But 'sexual tension' between them? This I do not see at all; so everyone can 'hit me over the head with a book', as Antiquarian said.

I also have an opinion on the sorrow part. I don't think it has a thing to do with Kate. They were not involved at all, I don't see how they could have been. It is not indicated or even implied in the story. I think, that since Lawrence wrote this story at a time he was feeling a lot of personal sorrow in his own life he is speaking about Severn's past sorrows, which we are never allowed assess to in this story. Sorrow is just a general term here to group any sorrows he may have felt in the past, such as Lawrence had experienced himself not long before this story took form in his mind.

Other than that I think all of you have good ideas on this story and I fairly agree with most of what you all have said and expounded on or changed through the course of the discussion so far. I like the undercurrents of suggestion of things to come later on; but I do think we need to stop ourselves from going too far into analysising every tiny bit and turning things into allegory that just are not quite developed as such. This is an early Lawrence work, afterall.
I also am ambiguous about the title and just who that applies to. I tend to think of it as both men at the end of the story; but we can wait till that part and explore the idea more indepth.


So, I guess it would be a good time now to post more text and move on. I really can't think of anything more to add to this part; can any of you? When you all give me the word I will post the next part of the text.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, I am ready now for the next part of the text if everyone else is

[Janine]

DM, why are you being so agreeable? It's kind of frightening to me. Anyway, thanks for saying we can progress; I would think everyone else is ready as well so I will post it now:
Yay - I want to move on, so we can progress with the main interaction between the adults. The portion below is just of Severn and Mrs. Thomas alone in the room.

The Next Part of the Text

It was still not quite dark; the clouds had opened slightly. The young man flung himself into an arm-chair, with a volume of French verse. He read one lyric, then he lay still.

"What, all in the dark!" exclaimed Mrs. Thomas, coming in. "And reading by this light." She rebuked him with timid affectionateness. Then, glancing at his white-flannelled limbs sprawled out in the gloom, she went to the door. There she turned her back to him, looking out.

"Don't these flags smell strongly in the evening?" she said at length.
He replied with a few lines of the French he had been reading.

She did not understand. There was a peculiar silence.

"A peculiar, brutal, carnal scent, iris," he drawled at length. "Isn't it?"
She laughed shortly, saying: "Eh, I don't know about that."
"It is," he asserted calmly.

He rose from his chair, went to stand beside her at the door.
There was a great sheaf of yellow iris near the window. Farther off, in the last twilight, a gang of enormous poppies balanced and flapped their gold-scarlet, which even the darkness could not quite put out.

"We ought to be feeling very sad," she said after a while.
"Why?" he asked.
"Well--isn't it Kate's last night?" she said, slightly mocking.
"She's a tartar, Kate," he said.
"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas sounded very much incensed.
"Poor Kate, she'll have to lower her key," said Severn.
"Indeed she will, and a good thing too."

There was silence again.

"It's lightning," he said at last.
"Where?" she asked, with a suddenness that surprised him. She turned, met his eyes for a second. He sank his head, abashed.
"Over there in the north-east," he said, keeping his face from her. She watched his hand rather than the sky.
"Oh," she said uninterestedly.
"The storm will wheel round, you'll see," he said.
"I hope it wheels the other way, then."
"Well, it won't. You don't like lightning, do you? You'd even have to take refuge with Kate if I weren't here."
She laughed quietly at his irony.
"No," she said, quite bitterly. "Mr. Thomas is never in when he's wanted."
"Well, as he won't be urgently required, we'll acquit him, eh?"

At that moment a white flash fell across the blackness. They looked at each other, laughing. The thunder came broken and hesitatingly.
"I think we'll shut the door," said Mrs. Thomas, in normal, sufficiently distant tones. A strong woman, she locked and bolted the stiff fastenings easily. Severn pressed on the light. Mrs. Thomas noticed the untidiness of the room. She rang, and presently Kate appeared.

Interesting to note: there is the mention of two flowers in this section and they both seem to have significance to me - the red poppies again and flags or iris'. Lawrence knew and loved his flowers and plants! It is one aspect of L's writing I truly enjoy.

He rose from his chair, went to stand beside her at the door.
There was a great sheaf of yellow iris near the window. Farther off, in the last twilight, a gang of enormous poppies balanced and flapped their gold-scarlet, which even the darkness could not quite put out.

Interesting, that the iris are yellow and the poppies are, not merely decribed as red or scarlet, but 'gold-scarlet', isn't it Antiquarian? You picked up on these yellow/gold references and their significance before. Also, I would say the gold/yellow would relate directly to the sun. The sun to L, was always a good thing.

This passage with the light and dark, being mentioned often, is also a good indication of opposites and contrast. It may also mimic the oncoming scene with the two men so much in contrast; Severn the light figure and the husband the dark figure. Then the very fight itself, is forshadowed here, in the flashes of the lightening and the contrast of light and darkness. Also, the very nature of lightening/thunder storms evoke a kind of hostility and agressiveness. As with Severn who is normally low key, will also express pent up hostility (as the storms electricity discharges it's energy) near the end of the story.

I will leave the rest up to all of your. I don't have time for futher comments now. I have to get ready to go out.

[Quark]

The first detail that seems important in this section is Severn reading. This later becomes a signal to the reader of the wife's affection. During the argument between Severn and the husband, the wife can be seen alternatively reading and stitching. When she reads it's an indication that she's supporting Severn, and as she stitches she takes her husbands side.

[Dark Muse]

"What, all in the dark!" exclaimed Mrs. Thomas, coming in. "And reading by this light." She rebuked him with timid affectionateness. Then, glancing at his white-flannelled limbs sprawled out in the gloom, she went to the door. There she turned her back to him, looking out.

Here it feels as if Mrs. Thomas, is almost being motherly to Severn, she scolds him becasue he is reading in poor light. Like one might do with a child.

"Don't these flags smell strongly in the evening?" she said at length.
He replied with a few lines of the French he had been reading.

I was a bit confused when I first read this, is flag a type of flower?

"A peculiar, brutal, carnal scent, iris," he drawled at length. "Isn't it?"
She laughed shortly, saying: "Eh, I don't know about that."
"It is," he asserted calmly.

The use of the words here seems to refelct the events about to happen in the house, with the use of "peculiar" "brutal" and "carnal"

"We ought to be feeling very sad," she said after a while.
"Why?" he asked.
"Well--isn't it Kate's last night?" she said, slightly mocking.
"She's a tartar, Kate," he said.
"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas sounded very much incensed.
"Poor Kate, she'll have to lower her key," said Severn.
"Indeed she will, and a good thing too."

Though I still do not think Severn agreed with letting Kate go, and I think a part of him did feel for her, here he seems to be moking her along with Mrs. Thomas, though later he becomes angery at Mrs. Thomas for her treatment of Kate, but he seems as if he does let his opinions be dicated by others, and just gets swept along with other people.

"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas

I found this currious and wondered what was meant by it, when first she says that Kate is critical of Severn, but than quickly changes, and says it is instead her.

[Pensive]

"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas

I found this currious and wondered what was meant by it, when first she says that Kate is critical of Severn, but than quickly changes, and says it is instead her.

Am a bit puzzled here as well. Maybe Mrs. Thomas is implying plain sarcasm in her later sentence? And well, what kind of things that Severn does, Kate has a problem with? I think there are so many questions about Severn that we can not help but ponder about...

[Janine]

Quote by Quark

The first detail that seems important in this section is Severn reading. This later becomes a signal to the reader of the wife's affection. During the argument between Severn and the husband, the wife can be seen alternatively reading and stitching. When she reads it's an indication that she's supporting Severn, and as she stitches she takes her husbands side.

Who says? I am just kidding with you, Quark! Well, it might be one idea, but I am not sure about it. Seemed interesting to me at first but now I wonder how the stitching relates to her husband. Can you explain just what you are thinking on that score?

Quote by Dark Muse

Here it feels as if Mrs. Thomas, is almost being motherly to Severn, she scolds him becasue he is reading in poor light. Like one might do with a child.

Good observation. I thought she was also and seemed to me that Severn was rather in her favor in this way. She seemed to like to mother him and he liked it as well.

I was a bit confused when I first read this, is flag a type of flower?

As Antiquarian has pointed out that is the old-fashioned name for an iris. My mother used to call them flags all the time; my grandmother did as well.

The use of the words here seems to refelct the events about to happen in the house, with the use of "peculiar" "brutal" and "carnal"

Well 'carnal' means: 1. of the flesh; material; worldly. 2. sensual. Pair that up with the words peculiar and brutal and I am not sure what to think accept that carnal can be base and brutal at times I suppose. I do think this foreshadows the events to happen in the house this evening.

Though I still do not think Severn agreed with letting Kate go, and I think a part of him did feel for her, here he seems to be mocking her along with Mrs. Thomas, though later he becomes angery at Mrs. Thomas for her treatment of Kate, but he seems as if he does let his opinions be dicated by others, and just gets swept along with other people.

I never have seen Severn as actually mocking Kate in any way. He may say a few things about her in a joking sort of way but never vicious or mocking. I see mocking as much more intense like ridiculing someone. I just don't see this in Severn's makeup or manor. He simply states 'she's a tartar'; this is a common older expression; I have heard my mother use it countless times. I don't know the exact definition of it but I never heard someone say it in a tone of mockery. I think, most likely the two woman clashed and so Kate stood her ground; she stood up for her rights and did not let the other woman push her around; therefore Severn is stating that 'she's a tartar'.

Quote by Pensive

Am a bit puzzled here as well. Maybe Mrs. Thomas is implying plain sarcasm in her later sentence? And well, what kind of things that Severn does, Kate has a problem with? I think there are so many questions about Severn that we can not help but ponder about...

Hi Pensive, good to see you here again. Sorry you are puzzled. I do think Mrs. Thomas is implying sarcasm quite a bit in this conversation between Severn and herself. I don't think we will ever know what kind of things; I doubt they are very serious, probably just petty things that people living in close proximity run up against all the time. We may end up pondering much about Severn, because the story is a short one and doesn't provide much information about him to us; only what is truly necessary to the plot and the interaction of the characters.


Quotes by Antiquarian

A "flag" is just an old-fashioned word for an iris. They are one and the same, though some people called wild iris only flags. Obviously, in this story they're referring to yellow iris, and the poppies are gold-scarlet, so we're still dealing with yellow/gold flowers, though all the poppies I've seen are scarlet. No, come to think of it, I've seen pink ones. I guess they come in many colors, like iris. Scarlet flowers are coming into play now, too, and red signifies passion.

Yellow iris are a bit unusual, aren't they? Maybe they are more abundant in England and maybe they smell there stronger than they do here. I will have to check that out and see if they do indeed have any odor. I think mine are done blooming now. I think poppies can indeed come in various colors but here he does say they are scarlet-gold; interesting. Yes, the scarlet flowers do seem to suggest passion to Lawrence and would apply to this story. They only hint at passion that could exist if unguarded or acted upon by Mrs. Thomas or Severn.

But the iris have a strong scent that Edward describes as peculiar, brutal, and carnal. I never knew them to have any scent at all. I wonder why he thinks that? Foreshadowing of the fight to come? Then why yellow iris?

Antiquarian, I think that is foreshadowing but I don't know why the yellow color either.

Now, the subtext comes into play as Gertie teases Edward about Kate leaving. Obviously Kate has criticized Gertie, but not Edward. It's obvious to me that Gertie is also jealous of Kate and afraid Edward may come to establish some kind of close relationship with her.

I would agree with that. Seems like a reasonable explaination.

"We ought to be feeling very sad...." (meaning they really shouldn't be)

"Why?" (Edward is not all that sad)

"Well - isn't it Kate's last night?" (Gertie is mocking Edward)

"The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence-" (Obviously, it's not the things Edward does LOL)

"The things I do?" (Edward knows Kate doesn't become upset with him.)

"Oh, no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." (Now, Gertie admits that it's she with whom Kate finds fault.)

Thanks for breaking this down sentence by sentence, Anti; that is pretty much how I view it, also. I don't know how sad Edward is though. I don't think he is happy she is leaving but not torn appart by it either. I think Mrs. Thomas has a very sardonic way of speaking. She is being kind of snide in my opinion.

I supposed the approaching thunderstorm presages the fight to come, but right now, Edward makes the observation that it's still a ways off. And Gertie makes a point of saying that Mr. Thomas is never home when he's wanted. She doesn't say needed, but wanted.

True, she does make a point of his not being home and she does use the work 'wanted' and not needed. Yes, the thunderstorm does suggest the human conflict to come. That builts, just like the approaching storm.


Did you notice how the boys are missing again? All four of us women (the faithful) have posted but where are the men? They are such slowpokes all the time. They are, no doubt absorbed in the Aeneid or some other thread. After they post some comments I will post more of the story - keep it moving right along....

Wait, I take it back, Quark did post a few lines but where is our tried and true L fan, our beloved Virgil?

[Dark Muse]

I never have seen Severn as actually mocking Kate in any way. He may say a few things about her in a joking sort of way but never vicious or mocking. I see mocking as much more intense like ridiculing someone. I just don't see this in Severn's makeup or manor. He simply states 'she's a tartar'; this is a common older expression; I have heard my mother use it countless times. I don't know the exact definition of it but I never heard someone say it in a tone of mockery. I think, most likely the two woman clashed and so Kate stood her ground; she stood up for her rights and did not let the other woman push her around; therefore Severn is stating that 'she's a tartar'.

To me it felt as if he was mocking her along with Mrs. Thomas, here becasue he knows that is more or less what she would exepct or want. She would probably grow angery with him if he acutally tried and defend Kate to her.

A tartar is a person of irritable or violent temper

Also when he says

"Poor Kate, she'll have to lower her key," said Severn.

He seems almost to be agreeing with Mrs. Thomas here, and suggesting that Kate is in the wrong in someway for the way she acts, inspite of what he later thinks to himself.

[Janine]

To me it felt as if he was mocking her along with Mrs. Thomas, here becasue he knows that is more or less what she would exepct or want. She would probably grow angery with him if he acutally tried and defend Kate to her.

A tartar is a person of irritable or violent temper

Well, of the two I think the first might fit her but not the second. Where exactly did you get this definition? I could not find it in my dictionary, but forgot to look online. I get the sense that Kate might be headstrong or fiesty, but not of a 'violent temper'; after all she plays reverie when she breaks up the fight with Severn and Thomas.

He seems almost to be agreeing with Mrs. Thomas here, and suggesting that Kate is in the wrong in someway for the way she acts, inspite of what he later thinks to himself.

This part might be true, but I still find fault with that word 'mock'. It really seems to overstate the case for me. I looked the word up in the dictionary online, as a verb:

Main Entry:
1mock
Pronunciation:
\ˈmäk, ˈmȯk\
Function:
verb
Etymology:
Middle English, from moker
Date:
15th century
transitive verb1: to treat with contempt or ridicule : DERIDE2: to disappoint the hopes of3: DEFY, CHALLENGE4 a: to imitate (as a mannerism) closely : MIMIC b: to mimic in sport or derisionintransitive verb

Then I looked up 'ridicule' as a verb:

Main Entry:
2ridicule
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
ridiculed; ridicul•ing
Date:
circa 1700
: to make fun of
— rid•i•cul•er noun
synonyms RIDICULE, DERIDE, MOCK, TAUNT mean to make an object of laughter of. RIDICULE implies a deliberate often malicious belittling <consistently ridiculed everything she said>. DERIDE suggests contemptuous and often bitter ridicule <derided their efforts to start their own business>. MOCK implies scorn often ironically expressed as by mimicry or sham deference <youngsters began to mock the helpless wino>. TAUNT suggests jeeringly provoking insult or challenge <hometown fans taunted the visiting team>.

I don't get the sense of ridicule here or of mocking; I get more a sense of discussing and criticising, but not mocking her. There is some sarcasm, but I don't think that adds up to mocking either.

[Dark Muse]

I found my definition in my old websters dictionary

[Janine]

And I always thought it was just a slang type expression.

I looked online, but could not come up with anything except 'cream of tartar' -you should know about that Antiquarian, having attended cooking school.

My mother used to use the expression all the time. The way she used it it was not really mocking, more like poking fun or stating the person was a bit precocious or difficult to get along with. From what I have seen so far in the story, concerning the temperment of Mrs. Thomas, I think she is the one who would be hard to get along with. I see her more as the tartar. It is kind of ironic.

[Virgil]

The use of the words here seems to refelct the events about to happen in the house, with the use of "peculiar" "brutal" and "carnal"

That is a rather unusual way to describe flowers or even just the aroma of flowers, but i do think, like others have mentioned, that it presages thigs to come.

But the iris have a strong scent that Edward describes as peculiar, brutal, and carnal. I never knew them to have any scent at all. I wonder why he thinks that? Foreshadowing of the fight to come? Then why yellow iris?

I don't recall smelling irises, so i can't say. But I remember from Odor of the Chysanthums that Mums from my experience also don't give off any scent. But the story is based on it. I don't know if they're just different in England.

Now, the subtext comes into play as Gertie teases Edward about Kate leaving. Obviously Kate has criticized Gertie, but not Edward. It's obvious to me that Gertie is also jealous of Kate and afraid Edward may come to establish some kind of close relationship with her.

Now I hope people will agree with me and see the sexual tension between Severn and Gertie. Do you think Gertie is letting Kate go because she feels jealous of Severn or Mr. Thomas?

"We ought to be feeling very sad...." (meaning they really shouldn't be)

"Why?" (Edward is not all that sad)

"Well - isn't it Kate's last night?" (Gertie is mocking Edward)

"The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence-" (Obviously, it's not the things Edward does LOL)

"The things I do?" (Edward knows Kate doesn't become upset with him.)

"Oh, no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." (Now, Gertie admits that it's she with whom Kate finds fault.)

I like that kind of analysis too. Very good Anti. As to whether mock is too strong a word, perhpas tease is more accurate.

A tartar is a person of irritable or violent temper

I think that's what's meant by the word. Kate seems like a passionate person who could be Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know.

[Dark Muse]

When they are alone together with the storm raging outside, it says that they were no longer afraid of the storm but of each other, and Severn is thinking:

There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But that idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on sonconcsiously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his concious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yeild allegiance and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone.

Here he seems to clearly express some sort of physcial desire towrd Mrs. Thomas, only his thinking mind refuses to give into it, and he resists the temptation, but he is tempeted by her.

[Dark Muse]

I was just using a quote from the text to illustarte what I think is an example of sexual tension within the story between Severn and Mrs. Thomas.

It is hard to effectively discuss ideas within a story if one can only go in chronolgicial order without using context within the story from elsewhere to help support a point.

[Janine]

Edit - How did those quotes get in my post? I don't even know how to put two in or I would have done so. LOL As I've said, I do see some sexual tension later, but not quite yet, so I'm not being quite as disagreeable as I might have first appeared. LOL

Antiquarian, Those quotes go in automatically, when you click on someone's post to respond. Those are from Dark Muse. This brings up a good point. I have been reading the posts, sort of taking a backseat this time to see what progresses; and to be honest with you all, I see a lot of going around in circles. I really can't get into all this debating and what seems to me at times as bickering or nitpicking about the tiny details, because to be honest again, I find that usually I can't make sense out of it all, when the posts keeps changing so rapidly, along with individuals opinions. I wish I could. I probably need to just copy out posts and take them offline and take what I wish to respond to. I think that Quark made mention of this in the other thread. He said he only responded to a few from each person.

Anyway, it would be helpful, Antiquarian, if you could use the quote system when you are posting. I have the worst time reading your posts, I have to be honest with you, because everything seems to run together - italics are hard for me to see and read since I have bifocals (you know, getting old); I actually take my glasses off and sit close to read the screen. If you don't know how to do the quotes, maybe ask Logos or Scher. I can help, also. I really do wish to read your posts and not get confused. I know you have some good things to add.

I guess I am really tired out and a little crouchy myself today. I just read all the posts and before I post the next section of the text, I would like to look up a few things in my books and post some ideas on what I find or what I think at this point; this might give you all further insight into the story; since these characters were based on some true people in Lawrence's young life and a family he lived with. I do tend to go with Virgil and DM on the idea that there is sexual tension exisiting between Gertie and Edward as the sit in the room together alone. I will explain later on. Everyone keeps giving their opinions on this idea, but I don't see a lot of backup. I did see that DM posted some of the text and she did indeed, point out phrases that indicated 'sexual tension' or at least 'attraction'. I think it is always good to quote the text to backup an opinion. As we have seen in the past, so many times even words or phrases are miscontrued. I read somewhere that Lawrence was brutally misunderstood in his time and now scholars look on his work in a whole new light; they are finally beginning to know his true meanings. I believe it. In fact, often texts were so cut down by his publishers that they do indeed lack something to make the meaning totally clear to us. I heard some have been recovered and now they are published as L would have intended them to be read.

I will be back soon to post some idea before we progress on with the next part of the story text.

I am glad to see you here, Virgil. I wondered if you read my post #2294.