Second Language?

[Kafka's Crow]

My advice for all:
Learn another language, know more about other cultures, travel a lot, search for other readings, study philosophies, analyse your life before it is too late...
Open your eyes for unknown.

Who has the time and money to do all that? There was a time when I traveled all over the world, most of the time, but not now.

People usually go to school, or if older, have jobs and families. They have children, bills, and mortgages to pay. They don't have the time or the money to do all those things and to travel a lot, which is very, very expensive. I was lucky I saw the world when it was a lot less expensive to travel. I know people who have a hard time buying books, let alone traveling a lot.

You're describing the lifestyle of the idle rich, who usually don't care about anything but rising in the ranks of society and getting their photo on the front page of a magazine. Most Americans are lucky to get one or two weeks of vacation each year and then they don't usually travel far away. Some spend it at home with their family, who they rarely see otherwise.

I have four children, (all under 11 years old) have a full time stressful job, mortgage, bills, Amazon.com (one of the major expenses) still I have managed to travel a good deal, learned six different languages, learned a good deal about other cultures and come to the conclusion that it was all well worth it. I am waiting for the kids to grow up and be independent. Then I'll pursue knowledge systematically. I haven't even started yet and there is a long way to go. I am not rich, my face never appeared on the front page (on any page, for that matter). Where there is a will there is a way. Nothing should stop us from aiming high.

I have serious problems with psychoanalytical interpretations of any literature therefore would stay away from Freud's readings of Shakespeare (read them back in early 90s and developed an instant abhorrence for them). Have you been watching Mel Gibson's Hamlet recently, Brasil?

[Dori]

My advice for all:
Learn another language, know more about other cultures, travel a lot, search for other readings, study philosophies, analyse your life before it is too late...
Open your eyes for unknown.

Who has the time and money to do all that? There was a time when I traveled all over the world, most of the time, but not now.

People usually go to school, or if older, have jobs and families. They have children, bills, and mortgages to pay. They don't have the time or the money to do all those things and to travel a lot, which is very, very expensive. I was lucky I saw the world when it was a lot less expensive to travel. I know people who have a hard time buying books, let alone traveling a lot.

You're describing the lifestyle of the idle rich, who usually don't care about anything but rising in the ranks of society and getting their photo on the front page of a magazine. Most Americans are lucky to get one or two weeks of vacation each year and then they don't usually travel far away. Some spend it at home with their family, who they rarely see otherwise.

The only thing that actually requires a substantial amount of money is travelling. Whether you want to learn new languages or about other cultures is a personal choice; those who set aside time for personal endeavors will find the time to do those things. By no means are these people confined to the "idle rich". It simply depends on whether or not the person in question wants to learn.

I think I can claim that I've tired to learn new languages and about new cultures and I am poor.

[NickAdams]

The Sanskrit language is one that is both very flexible and very precise.
Take a look at the following site: http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/sanskrit/tutor.html, it is for self-study.

[Dori]

But you're not married with children. The others require a substaintial amount of time, and most Americans just don't have that. They spend about eight hours a day sleeping, eight hours at work, two hours cooking dinner, eating, and cleaning up, two or so hours with the children, time with their husband or wife. It's just not feasible for most Americans with a family and job to do those things. It would be nice, and they should be able to squeeze in maybe one thing, but not all the poster recommended.

Make learning (languages, about other cultures, etc.) a family thing?

Yes, you are correct, I am not married with children. Probably won't be for years either (if at all).

Audiobooks are great for long car drives (well, anything > 30 minutes), something that seems common among many Americans.

Anyways, the advice is good advice for young'uns like me.

[stlukesguild]

But who is the Shakespeare of Iran? There are so many very great poets who wrote in Persian Language. Is it Sa'adi, the Nightingale of Shiraz, or is it Hafiz (weren't the random pages of his works used to forecast future events?) Is it the majestic Firdausi, or the beautifully lyrical Rudki. Even Ghalib and Mir and other masters from Delhi left behind a huge amount of poems in Persian. How could a language attract poets from so far and distant lands? StLukesGuild should be able to elaborate this point but Persian sensibility can be traced in the beautiful miniature paintings if you don't know the language.

Persia is indeed a fascinating culture... perhaps THE most fascinating culture of the middle-east. I have long been fascinated with Persian/Islamic art, but it has only been recently... as part of a course on Non-Western art... that I have delved into it a bit deeper. The Persian Empire was one of the greatest empires of the ancient world. It outlasted both the Greek Empire and the Roman. Some major miscalculations, poor leadership, and a direct confrontation with the Byzantine Empire resulted in the collapse of an empire that had lasted more than a millennium. Much of the art and architecture of Persia was destroyed over the ensuing years... first under the Arab/Islamic invasions, and then under the Mongols. Nevertheless, what remains of ancient Persia is quite evocative and exquisite:


The famous "Ishtar Gate"


Temple relief sculpture


Support column and ornate capital


Ishtar


Sculptural fragment of a horse


Bronze portrait bust

Among the most exquisite Persian artistic achievements were their ornate metal works. There is more than ample evidence to prove that the Persians had mastered working in metal on an epic scale:



continued...

But the most influential works were their smaller metal objects: plates...



... serving challises-





The ornate patterns and abstracted animal forms were especially influential...



... and this influence spread east to the Scythians (themselves of Persian/Iranian stock) and via the the Scythians, Persian innovations in metals spread along the Silk Road to China as well as northward to the Celts... who would take their own interpretation of the Persian love of ornate patterned metalry all the way to Western Europe and as far as Ireland:


Scythian Necklace


Celtic/Saxon latch

Following the fall of the Persian Empire to the Byzantines, the Islamic Arabs swept into Persia. The Arabs conquest of Persia might be best compared with the Mongol conquest of China. In both instances the greater nation with a grand cultural history was overcome by smaller, nomadic, horse-bound armies of a people who were far less sophisticated... even "crude" in comparison. From the Byzantine Empire, the Persians absorbed the Byzantine use of ceramic tiles and mosaics. From the Arabs, the Persians absorbed Islam. The Arabs, in turn, would absorb most of their art and culture from Persia. Persia housed the great libraries and provided the great poets whose words would spread throughout the Islamic world. Persia would house the great schools of calligraphy, painting, ceramic design, etc... (especially at Tabriz, Herat, and Shiraz). The ornate interweavings of Persia design would be absorbed by Arab/Islamic calligraphers:







continued...

Contrary to strictures laid down by many Arab/Islamic clerics, Persia never abandoned the concept of figurative art. The painters of Persian miniatures rank among the greatest painters in history, while the finest Persian illuminated manuscripts equal the greatest examples of books arts (the Book of Kells, the Lindesfarne Gospels, the Tres Riches Heures of the Limbourg Brothers, etc...) to be found anywhere:







Persian art has been a direct influence upon artists ranging from Ingres and Delacroix through Renoir, Matisse, Chagall, and Paul Klee and on to contemporaries such as Howard Hodgkin, Francesco Clemente (among others). Looking at the spread of artistic forms rooted in Persian culture throughout the realm of Islam (from Eastern Europe, throughout the Middle-East, India, North-Africa, and into Spain, Portugal and Southern France) one cannot help but recognize the fact that Western Culture has been just as profoundly impacted by Persian/Arabic culture as it has been by the Greco/Roman heritage, and Hebrew/Judeo-Christian. It is too bad that the current war in the Middle-East, as well as radical Islam... and the exaggerated responses to radical Islam, results in many never recognizing just how rich a culture there is there to be found.

[sofia82]

Great information on Persian art and culture. Thank you, stlukesguild.
And I add some other parts. Besides what stlukesguild mentioned, persian carpet "is an essential part of Persian art and culture. Carpet-weaving is undoubtedly one of the most distinguished manifestations of Persian culture and art, and dates back to ancient Persia. The art of carpet weaving in Iran has its roots in the culture and customs of its people and their instinctive feelings. Weavers mix elegant patterns with a myriad of colors. The Iranian carpet is similar to the Persian garden: full of florae, birds, and beasts."

http://www.therugs.com/
http://www.persiancarpethouse.com/
http://www.orgtx.com

Tabriz Floral Medallion

[sofia82]

Persian Miniature

Farshchian, Morning star. I love this miniature.

It is good advice if one's young enough to be able to indulge in it and smart enough to do it while they can.

I think it's great when families learn a language together. More of them should.

I also like the idea of audiobooks, but personally, I've never been able to get into most of them. I did like A Christmas Carol and few others as audiobooks, though.

I was married when I traveled, but my ex-husband had a lot of moolah. LOL And being centrally located in Switzerland was nice. Now, though, I'm more interested in establishing a home, but I don't regret any of the traveling I did and consider myself lucky to have done so much and seen the better part of the world. All continents but Antarctica, and I don't mind skipping that one.

I really dream of traveling around the world. It must be a great experience seeing people, countries, sceneries. But no experience

[sofia82]

I loved it when I did it, but right now, I'm very focused on a home and settling down.

But for me no home, no settlling down, and no traveling

[JBI]

But for me no home, no settlling down, and no traveling

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield!
Funny how all conversations of travel always lead me to Tennyson's Ulysses.


For those who have not yet read it,
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ulysses_%28Tennyson%29
This is perhaps the most perfect poem for memorization, as it has some of the greatest moments of English literature in its scope.


As for me, I plan to travel when I can, but I am on a student budget, and, unless I can secure work in a foreign country before I leave my home, will not venture out there without a full wallet.

I was quite blessed in my youth to visit many countries (I even got as far as Bali Indonesia, and Laos on one of my trips) and have seen many things. The one strange thing is though, no matter how versed in a language one is, in the majority of places I have gone, locals will always resort to English rather than listen to a foreign accent. I am fluent perfectly in Hebrew, yet in Israel
as soon as I utter one syllable, English enters the conversation.

That being said, language learning is essential for really enjoying the arts. Unfortunately, for the most part the arts are limited to the rich, though thanks to photography and film one can see more by standing still, and for nothing. It is a real shame however, that unlike Europe, the U.S. and Canadian mindset seems to be off of language learning, and geared more towards social sciences and sciences. Perhaps the cost of language learning though is the real problem, being that unless the school is quite large, most languages will not be taught, and outside of school lessons are always expensive. Universities provide excellent options for diverse learnings, multiple languages included, however time and money seem a problem there too.

I guess than one must really know where they wish to end up when they choose which languages to study, and which not to. That being said, map out the next 20 years of your language learning life before embarking on learning a language.

[PeterL]

LOL I already speak German, Yiddish, and some French, and can get by in halting Spanish and Italian. Can read Russian and speak a little.

But I'm allergic to shellfish, though not to "regular" fish, and I'm afraid a life on the high seas wouldn't be for me, though I do love the ocean and find it very tranquil. Well, most of the time.

I am thinking of getting that canoe, though.

You could put into German, French, Yiddish, Italian, and English speaking ports. French and English would cover most of Africa and Asia. Far out at sea there aren't many storms, but there are plenty of fish but no places to spend money. Just the amount you saved in a year would pay for the boat. The canoe would come in handy for landing on uninhabited islands.

[Kafka's Crow]

All you youngsters (I will be reaching the end of my 30s soon, so I don't count anymore), try to do some volunteer work abroad. This is a unique and most effective way of learning a new culture and language. Try teaching English Literature abroad, come to England and teach literature here. It will open your eyes. The thing is unimaginably different from anywhere else. Resistance to learning other languages is a disease of all English-speaking nations, not just the US or Canada. We think we don't need another language. My English-speaking wife laughed when I first brought the primers of French language for my kids. Now she is the only one in the household who can't speak that language!

It is a manifestation of the spirit of adventure, learning new language requires, hard and sustained effort, self-discipline and perseverance. It is like an odyssey with its own perils and pitfalls, despair being the biggest one among them.

Thanks stlukesguild and Sofia for your comprehensive and highly informative replies. Only if there was some way of explaining the Persian poetry. Khayyam's Rubaiyat are just not what we see in English translation, they are more, much more. Khayyam is considered a major astronomer and mathematician and not a major poet in is home-country. This should give an idea of the people with whom he is competing for that title.

Edit:
Teaching/ Learning English Literature in England might not teach a new language but the concept of the 'canon' is so different here that it might give some a cultural shock.

[sofia82]

All you youngsters (I will be reaching the end of my 30s soon, so I don't count anymore), try to do some volunteer work abroad. This is a unique and most effective way of learning a new culture and language. Try teaching English Literature abroad, come to England and teach literature here. It will open your eyes. The thing is unimaginably different from anywhere else. Resistance to learning other languages is a disease of all English-speaking nations, not just the US or Canada. We think we don't need another language. My English-speaking wife laughed when I first brought the primers of French language for my kids. Now she is the only one in the household who can't speak that language!

Really, It is interesting that English speakers think like this!
Volunteer work is great idea! I never thought about it.

Thanks stlukesguild and Sofia for your comprehensive and highly informative replies. Only if there was some way of explaining the Persian poetry. Khayyam's Rubaiyat are just not what we see in English translation, they are more, much more. Khayyam is considered a major astronomer and mathematician and not a major poet in is home-country. This should give an idea of the people with whom he is competing for that title.

You're welcome! About Khayyam,

"He is best known for his poetry, and outside Iran, for the quatrains (rubaiyaas) in Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, popularized through Edward Fitzgerald's re-created translation. His substantial mathematical contributions include his Treatise on Demonstration of Problems of Algebra, which gives a geometric method for solving cubic equations by intersecting a hyperbola with a circle[2]. He also contributed to calendar reform and may have proposed a heliocentric theory well before Copernicus.

Omar Khayyám's poetic work has eclipsed his fame as a mathematician and scientist.

He is believed to have written about a thousand four-line verses or quatrains (rubaai's). In the English-speaking world, he was introduced through the The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám which are rather free-wheeling English translations by Edward Fitzgerald (1809-1883).

Other translations of parts of the rubáiyát (rubáiyát meaning "quatrains") exist, but Fitzgerald's are the most well known. Translations also exist in languages other than English.

Ironically, Fitzgerald's translations reintroduced Khayyam to Iranians "who had long ignored the Neishapouri poet." A 1934 book by one of Iran's most prominent writers, Sadeq Hedayat, Songs of Khayyam, (Taranehha-ye Khayyam) is said have "shaped the way a generation of Iranians viewed" the poet.[9]

Omar Khayyam's personal beliefs are not known with certainty, but much is discernible from his poetic oeuvre.

Although he was ignored to some extent, he is famous all over the Iran for his Four-line verses. But the theme of his peotry is against popular religious beliefs. It rejects some religious beliefs, so some poeple do not consider him as a great poet. But there is more than this anti-religious theme. And he is famous for the theme of Carpe Diem, too.

خيام اگر ز باده مستى خوش باش

با ماه رخى اگر نشستى خوش باش

چون عاقبت كار جهان نيستى است

انگار كه نيستى، چو هستى خوش باش

which translates in Fitzgerald's work as:

And if the Wine you drink, the Lip you press,

End in the Nothing all Things end in — Yes —

Then fancy while Thou art, Thou art but what

Thou shalt be — Nothing — Thou shalt not be less.

A more literal translation could read:

If with wine you are drunk be happy,

If seated with a moon-faced (beautiful), be happy,

Since the end purpose of the universe is nothing-ness;

Hence picture your nothing-ness, then while you are, be happy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubaiyat_of_Omar_Khayyam

[Kafka's Crow]

Yes Khayyam had highly controversial views, his reputation was revived only recently. It was mainly his astrology and maths (Algebra) that kept him in discussions till the beginning of the last century when Fitzgerald and others brought his poetry to the wider audience. This Sadeq Hedayat is the one who wrote Boof-e koor (The Blind Owl). I read that book recently and recommend it repeatedly on this forum:
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bashiri.../blindowl.html

[sofia82]

Yes Khayyam had highly controversial views, his reputation was revived only recently. It was mainly his astrology and maths (Algebra) that kept him in discussions till the beginning of the last century when Fitzgerald and others brought his poetry to the wider audience. This Sadeq Hedayat is the one who wrote Boof-e koor (The Blind Owl). I read that book recently and recommend it repeatedly on this forum:
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bashiri.../blindowl.html

Kafka's Crow, it seems you have lots of information about persian literature. It is interesting for me!

[Kafka's Crow]

Kafka's Crow, it seems you have lots of information about persian literature. It is interesting for me!

I stopped studying Persian Lit back in 1987. It has been English Literature ever since. My teacher was Irani and I can still speak with his accent which amazes my Afghan colleagues at work! After all these years, I have come to the conclusion that Persian language has the best treasure of poetry. Unfortunately its effect can't be translated into English Language. I had a bilingual anthology of Modern Persian Poetry as well. Last time I saw it was in my sister's library. I didn't ask her to return it. She can keep it!