D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Virgil]

Yes, and I read that he was doing a lot of painting at this time when he wrote this story. I think Lawrence often uses white; it can signify purity and a certain innocense; a purity before the world's tainting perhaps; a kind of departure back into the purity of the past and the pagan world. It brings to mind a passage in "The White Peacock" in the woods when they all come across wild snowdrops. I will have to look that up and post that passage and it may give you some insight into the idea of white and what it meant to L. It also, could mean a kind of virginal whiteness - the purity of the child and the young man's purity at this point in his life - maybe the purity of Adam, before Eve tempted him with the apple. Also, if you notice, this scene takes place in a garden.

Yes Anti made a good association with the colors.

I found this poem online today. I think it is interesting and relates somehow:

The poem does seem like it relates to the story. Good find Janine.

I believe this story was based on Lawrence's time as a border at the home of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones. I stated this earlier in my introduction.

When and where was he a border? Was that in London?

I think this poem is quite innocent and I sm surprised actually at some of your seeing sexual connotations to do with the child in the story. I think only in the way the child might be beginning to imitate adults and thus is breaking out of the inate 'purity' she would have been born with. It does not say how old the child is, but if Severn is thinking, soon she will be too old for him to undress, then she has some learned behavior, by her age. Children learn by what they see; this would maybe even explain, these little games she is playing with Severn. The 'teasing' would be something she would have learned from adults, by observing them.

I just don't see that; first off, there is no licking games between them. The baby is doing the licking and teasing, not Severn. I do see that he feels uncomforable with the child, now that she is growing older and doing such things. He probably realises he will have to let go of her, as she leaves her innocence behind and accept her as no longer being 'a baby'. Even though, she is referred to, continually, in the story as 'the baby', actually she is growing up into a child and will be leaving her babyhood and untouched purity (whiteness) behind her eventually. As a baby, she is pure and sexless in a way; as she grows she takes on her womanhood. Severn must know that soon this will be the case and he can no longer have the intimacy with the baby/child.

well, the very fact that he's uncomfortable suggests sexual tension. Perhaps I should define it not as learing lust but an awareness of the sexual implications of what's going on. Or something like that. I did not have scotch tonight, but a couple of glasses of Chiante.

Oh D-M that was good on the suggestion of the garden of eden. I had not thought of that.

[Virgil]

I wonder if there is an actual definition. I'll see if I can look it up. I don't think the child feels any sexual tension, though it could be implied as being in her subconscious.


Edit: Goodness gracious, you're right Anti. There's an actual Wiki entry for sexual tension:

Sexual tension is a plot element employed in works of fiction wherein two or more of the characters sexually long for one another, but the consummation is postponed or never occurs. This longing is often suggested by incidents of intimacy; for instance, when two characters are alone, are physically close, but desire is never explicitly expressed. It also might be suggested in dialogue, as in, for example, a subtle reference to a character's feelings. Sometimes, displays of hostility are used to hide secret attraction, or to deflect true but inconvenient romantic feelings.

The device creates a direction for the plot: toward a resolution. Alternatively, it might create a subplot that may or may not be resolved.

The device, when used by a skilled writer, evokes tension in the audience on account of this private knowledge. In a generic movie, by contrast, sexual tension is often employed and then concluded with a love scene. Soap operas in particular, rely heavily on sexual tension between characters to extend storylines, and maintain interest.

It is important to note that many popular television shows, such as NBC's Friends and Frasier, suffered declining ratings and subsequent cancellation, once the sexual tension between the main characters was dissolved. This was usually achieved when the characters married, entered an ongoing sexual relationship or had a child.

Sexual tension can be a normal part of human sexuality in day to day life. It is particularly common in the workplace, where many people work together in close proximity and develop an attraction to each other, but are unable to pursue a connection for any number of reasons.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_tension"

[Virgil]

I do think she's going to grow up to be a temptress, but right now, I think Mary symbolizes the freedom and innocence man felt before the fall in the Garden of Eden. No sexual tension. That's how I see it.

Ok I concede. Based on the definition above there is no sexual tension. There must be another word then for what I mean.

[Janine]

Yes Anti made a good association with the colors.

Did you mean Anti or me, Janine - my quote was above this remark?

The poem does seem like it relates to the story. Good find Janine.

Thanks, there are few other baby poems and they also are lovely and revealing. I will look them up; I could not find them online.

... where was he a border? Was that in London?

I posted this earlier but you can read more about that in my introduction page to this story:

"This is one of a group of poems inspired apparently by Hilda Mary, the baby daughter of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones, at whose house Lawrence lodged when he was teaching at Croydon."

Interesting, the real baby is Hilda Mary and in this story he calls her just Mary. Croydon, I believe is a superb or section of London. You can probably find photos online of the exact house. In reality Lawrence was attracted to his landlady. It is strange because in the play I just bought, I felt the young man character was representative of Lawrence, and that play may have been written to represent the same sort of triangle, even though the young man in the play is not a border, just a friend to the wife.

well, the very fact that he's uncomfortable suggests sexual tension. Perhaps I should define it not as learing lust but an awareness of the sexual implications of what's going on. Or something like that. I did not have scotch tonight, but a couple of glasses of Chiante.

I don't think it is sexual tension either. I think it takes two for that sort of thing and Severn does not see the child in any kind of sexual light. He is only observing that soon she will be too old for him to undress. That would be a natural thought. I think all of you people are seeing too many movies with pedefiles and sick people lately. I don't think 'sexual tension' was Lawrence's intention here at all.

Oh D-M that was good on the suggestion of the garden of eden. I had not thought of that.

Maybe we both were thinking in the same vain since I mentioned it too; I just post slower.

Quotes by Antiquarian

Lawrence states that Mary is three-years-old, Janine:

Running down the grass by the flower-border was a little girl of three, dressed in white.

I'm one who sees zero sexual tension in the scene in the garden between Edward and Mary. I see it as all innocence, though Mary is an Eve-in-the making.

I think she asks Edward to put her to bed because before the Fall, Adam and Eve were not ashamed of their nakedness, remember? I'm not sure they even knew they were nude. It was just the natural way to be. It was only after the fall that they became ashamed, as Edward is, not exactly ashamed, but more modest. He's grown up enough to know about sin. Mary isn't. Mary is still innocent, so she's not embarrassed by things such as nudity or the licking of Edward's face. It's just natural fun to her, not something sexual.

Thanks for pointing out she was a three year old. That would be about right then to think of no longer undressing/dressing her.
I agree, Antiquarian, with everything else you wrote here.

[Janine]

White signifies purity and innocence, gold and yellow a positive and happy future. There is mention of a train with a "gold-light" while they are in the garden. The flowers are marigolds. Edward and Mary are dressed in white.

It seems to me it's a figurative scene in the Garden of Eden before the fall, but then Edward, who is old enough, is reminded of man's sin. Adam's sin. Also like Adam, Edward succumbs to Mary's (Eve's) tempting, but in this case, Mary is too young to realize what she's doing. However, she does have some knowledge of it. Lawrence says as much. She knows she's tempting Edward, but it's free and innocent. She doesn't know about sin.

Thanks, Antiquarian, that is good; I think that is an accurate way of paraphrasing it.
I guess I should post more of the story now; what do you think?

[Janine]

Next Part of the Text:

Mrs. Thomas stood in the dark doorway watching the night, the trains, the flash and run of the two white figures.

"And now we must go in," she heard Severn say.
"No," cried the baby, wild and defiant as a bacchanal. She clung to him like a wild-cat.
"Yes," he said. "Where's your mother?"
"Give me a swing," demanded the child.

He caught her up. She strangled him hard with her young arms.

"I said, where's your mother?" he persisted, half smothered.
"She's op'tairs," shouted the child. "Give me a swing."
"I don't think she is," said Severn.
"She is. Give me a swing, a swi-i-ing!"

He bent forward, so that she hung from his neck like a great pendant. Then he swung her, laughing low to himself while she shrieked with fear. As she slipped he caught her to his breast.

"Mary!" called Mrs. Thomas, in that low, songful tone of a woman when her heart is roused and happy.
"Mary!" she called, long and sweet.
"Oh, no!" cried the child quickly.

But Severn bore her off. Laughing, he bowed his head and offered to the mother the baby who clung round his neck.

"Come along here," said Mrs. Thomas roguishly, clasping the baby's waist with her hands.
"Oh, no," cried the child, tucking her head into the young man's neck.
"But it's bed-time," said the mother.

She laughed as she drew at the child to pull her loose from Severn. The baby clung tighter, and laughed, feeling no determination in her mother's grip. Severn bent his head to loosen the child's hold, bowed, and swung the heavy baby on his neck. The child clung to him, bubbling with laughter; the mother drew at her baby, laughing low, while the man swung gracefully, giving little jerks of laughter.

"Let Mr. Severn undress me," said the child, hugging close to the young man, who had come to lodge with her parents when she was scarce a month old.

"You're in high favour to-night," said the mother to Severn. He laughed, and all three stood a moment watching the trains pass and repass in the sky beyond the garden-end. Then they went indoors, and Severn undressed the child.

She was a beautiful girl, a bacchanal with her wild, dull-gold hair tossing about like a loose chaplet, her hazel eyes shining daringly, her small, spaced teeth glistening in little passions of laughter within her red, small mouth. The young man loved her. She was such a little bright wave of wilfulness, so abandoned to her impulses, so white and smooth as she lay at rest, so startling as she flashed her naked limbs about. But she was growing too old for a young man to undress.

She sat on his knee in her high-waisted night-gown, eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment: she did not want to go to bed. But Severn made her repeat a Pater Noster. She lisped over the Latin, and Mrs. Thomas, listening, flushed with pleasure; although she was a Protestant, and although she deplored the unbelief of Severn, who had been a Catholic.

The mother took the baby to carry her to bed. Mrs. Thomas was thirty-four years old, full-bosomed and ripe. She had dark hair that twined lightly round her low, white brow. She had a clear complexion, and beautiful brows, and dark-blue eyes. The lower part of her face was heavy.

"Kiss me," said Severn to the child.

He raised his face as he sat in the rocking-chair. The mother stood beside, looking down at him, and holding the laughing rogue of a baby against her breast. The man's face was uptilted, his heavy brows set back from the laughing tenderness of his eyes, which looked dark, because the pupil was dilated. He pursed up his handsome mouth, his thick close-cut moustache roused.

He was a man who gave tenderness, but who did not ask for it. All his own troubles he kept, laughingly, to himself. But his eyes were very sad when quiet, and he was too quick to understand sorrow, not to know it.

Mrs. Thomas watched his fine mouth lifted for kissing. She leaned forward, lowering the baby, and suddenly, by a quick change in his eyes, she knew he was aware of her heavy woman's breasts approaching down to him. The wild rogue of a baby bent her face to his, and then, instead of kissing him, suddenly licked his cheek with her wet, soft tongue. He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.

"No, no," he laughed, in low strangled tones. "No dog-lick, my dear, oh no!"

The baby chuckled with glee, gave one wicked jerk of laughter, that came out like a bubble escaping.

He put up his mouth again, and again his face was horizontal below the face of the young mother. She looked down on him as if by a kind of fascination.

"Kiss me, then," he said with thick throat.

The mother lowered the baby. She felt scarcely sure of her balance. Again the child, when near to his face, darted out her tongue to lick him. He swiftly averted his face, laughing in his throat.

Mrs. Thomas turned her face aside; she would see no more.

"Come then," she said to the child. "If you won't kiss Mr. Severn nicely--"

The child laughed over the mother's shoulder like a squirrel crouched there. She was carried to bed.

Note: we can probably comment on this fairly quickly and then move on; since we did comment on some of it already.

[Quark]

I don't think it is sexual tension either.

Once more, the wildness of Mary in emphasized. She's young and innocent and knows nothing of sin or of how religion can divide people.

No, I don't think there's sexual tension between them, but at the same I don't believe Mary is innocent. There is tension and conflict between the two of them. Severn wants affection from the girl, but Mary merely wants to play with the older man. The bachanal allusion helps characterize Mary as a pleasure-seeker, but her actions do so more. She demands to be swung and then teases Severn when he wants a kiss. I think we were right when we called her a temptress and tease before. It's just that she's toying with affections and not sexuality.

[Quark]

Is he really hesistant? He seems pretty strongly drawn to her. Lawrence says that Severn loved her willfulness and impulsiveness. These are the qualities that Severn lacks, and so he finds them attractive in the child. I suppose Severn making Mary repeat a Pater Noster shows that he has some qualms about this, but he's never actually hesitates.

[Quark]

Yes, repulsed was a poor word, so I edited my post.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I don't interpret this passage to be sexual at all. Severn isn't bothered by her nudity. He's put off by her wildness which he's trying to civilize. Mary isn't Eve. She's a heathen, and she's even called by heathen Greek names like Dryad and Bachanal. Severn, on the other hand, is the overly-educated, civilized man who finds her spirit both attractive and worrisome.

[Janine]

Are we ready to move on to a new part of the text?

I have been absent today, because my new granddaughter came to visit her grandma and greatgrandma and great-aunt, for the very first time. Our visit was simply wonderful and now I am in seventh heaven. She is adorable and I love her so much - words can't even describe this feeling I have when I see her again. I got to feed her a bottle and she is darling. This is one happy grannie!

I will post the text tomorrow, if you all give me the go-ahead. Sorry to slack off today; but I am happy I did so. My granddaughter has to come first!

[Dark Muse]

Let me just say a few words on the next section, sense I missed when it was first posted.

Mrs. Thomas stood in the dark doorway watching the night, the trains, the flash and run of the two white figures.

I find the mention of the dark doorway here interesting, with Mrs. Thomas, sort of looming there watching, as what goes on in the house ends up being far less pleasent and carefree than the garden scene outside. Mrs. Thomas does sort of cast a shadow over everyone.

He caught her up. She strangled him hard with her young arms.

"I said, where's your mother?" he persisted, half smothered.
"She's op'tairs," shouted the child. "Give me a swing."
"I don't think she is," said Severn.
"She is. Give me a swing, a swi-i-ing!"

I do find it interesting that the interactions between Severn and the child are tinged with the suggestion of violence intermingled in thier affection and thier play.

He bent forward, so that she hung from his neck like a great pendant. Then he swung her, laughing low to himself while she shrieked with fear. As she slipped he caught her to his breast.

But Severn bore her off. Laughing, he bowed his head and offered to the mother the baby who clung round his neck.

She laughed as she drew at the child to pull her loose from Severn. The baby clung tighter, and laughed, feeling no determination in her mother's grip. Severn bent his head to loosen the child's hold, bowed, and swung the heavy baby on his neck. The child clung to him, bubbling with laughter; the mother drew at her baby, laughing low, while the man swung gracefully, giving little jerks of laughter.

Here the child is portrayed almost like a burdon to Severn, this great weight in which he must bear. It could reflect the Eve idea, though here the child is still innocent, she is starting to grow into the temprtress and the "sin" of Eve, than must be carried forever by man.

He was a man who gave tenderness, but who did not ask for it. All his own troubles he kept, laughingly, to himself. But his eyes were very sad when quiet, and he was too quick to understand sorrow, not to know it.

I found this line to be a bit currious, as it says he gave tenderness but did not ask for it, and yet right before this, he demands the child to give him a kiss and than becomes upset when she does not comply.

He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.

The words "dangerous laugh" struck me as interesting here

[Virgil]

Ok I concede. Based on the definition above there is no sexual tension. There must be another word then for what I mean.

Ok, after thinking about what I mean about the sexual inference between Severn and the child, and since sexual tension turns out to be the incorrect term, I'm going to have to settle for sexual undercurrent as for what I think Lawrence is implying. While I don't think it's a conscious element to Severn or the child, i do think Lawrence is putting this undercurrent into the text. There are just too many sexual references to completely think that everything on a subconscious level is innocent. I think the same may be said between him and Kate, though it's not as prominant, if at all, there. At least that's my opinion and reading. I think you guys will mostly disagree with it.

I completely agree with those that mention the garden scene as a sort of playing in the garden of eden. I had not thought of that at all when i first read the story and I do think it fits well.

I do find it interesting that the interactions between Severn and the child are tinged with the suggestion of violence intermingled in thier affection and thier play.

Yes, this was what caught my eye in my readings. What occurs is a sort of mock fight, which parallels the climatic real fight at the end.

He caught her up. She strangled him hard with her young arms.

He bent forward, so that she hung from his neck like a great pendant. Then he swung her, laughing low to himself while she shrieked with fear. As she slipped he caught her to his breast.

The action here is very similar to the fight action, only of course there is a slant to it. It's not a fight but a mock fight.

Here the child is portrayed almost like a burdon to Severn, this great weight in which he must bear. It could reflect the Eve idea, though here the child is still innocent, she is starting to grow into the temprtress and the "sin" of Eve, than must be carried forever by man.

Well, perhaps. I don't know. There is a danger of pushing the allegory too far. I don't think at its heart this is an allegorical story.

He was a man who gave tenderness, but who did not ask for it. All his own troubles he kept, laughingly, to himself. But his eyes were very sad when quiet, and he was too quick to understand sorrow, not to know it.

I found this line to be a bit currious, as it says he gave tenderness but did not ask for it, and yet right before this, he demands the child to give him a kiss and than becomes upset when she does not comply.

I found that interesting too. I don't see this part of the characterization have any direct influence to the plot. What troubles of his become relavant? I don't see any. But it does show a relatively immature man, someone not fully capable of expressing himself. And I guess that does figure into the plot somewhat because it seems people do misinterpret his jocular quips, especially Mr. Thomas who figures Severn dropped the weight on him on purpose..

He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.

The words "dangerous laugh" struck me as interesting here

He does become dangerous at the end.

[Virgil]

I think, for awhile, only I thought it was a "Garden of Eden" scene, with Mary as an Eve-in-the-making. I'm glad to see others coming around.

I still don't see any sexual undertones in the scene with Mary. Perhaps I need someone to hit me over the head with the book. LOL I see it more as total innocence like there was before the fall, before Eve ate the apple. They can play around, but it doesn't end in a fight because this is the garden before the fall.

You may be right about it being innocent. Perhaps the point is a pre-fall innocence. But that does imply the undercurrent is there. It's how we interpret the undercurrent I guess is the issue. I think you guys have convinced me it's innocent and therefore your interpretation holds. See, who says I'm stubborn and never change my mind?

I see the apple figuratively in this story as the fight Mrs. Severn seems to deliberately provoke, but that's getting ahead.

Hmm, it had not occured to me that an "apple" was implied in the story. Again I try not to read too allegorically. Let's look at it when we get there.

[Dark Muse]

So, Edward knows sorrow. I wonder if that's because of Kate leaving? They didn't seem that close to me. Edward's sorrow is something Lawrence never shows us, at any rate.

I did not take that to mean Kate leaving, but that he had known some Sorrow in his past, or that perhaps he was unhappy for some reason. As we do not know what brought him to live with this family, but being that he is bording with them, it seems he unable to support himself though he is shown to be intelligent latter on.

[Virgil]

I don't like to read allegorically, either. I don't think Lawrence wrote allegories, but I'm no expert on Lawrence, as everyone here knows. I do think he was highly symbolic, though. For example, flowers are always chosen for a certain reason, which is something I usually do myself, unless the "proper" flower can't be used. You can't have a field of sunflowers in the very early spring, for example. Those are a summer flower. Just going back to the red anemones in "The Witch a la Mode," I think Coutts was surprised to see them because they were red and red signifies passion. I think that showed he and Winifred had a "chaste" passion previously. Or just an attraction.

In this story, I think yellow flowers are used so often because they signify happiness and a positive future. The child points to marigolds, and in the garden one can see a "golden-lighted train." Even Mary, the child, has "dull-gold" hair.

I had not noticed the flowers at all. I need to re-read the story. I've been focused on the sexuality and the fighting.

I do have to wonder about all the anger in the story. Even Mary is described as "eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment" because she did not want to go to bed. Well, I guess that's normal for a child of three. Mary's thought processes seems very precocious for a child of three. Or maybe I was just very innocent for a longer period of time.

I think Mr Thomas is also seen biting into bread and butter and I'm not sure if his bites are savage, but it could be implied. I don't have my book handy right now.

I think the story might be called "The Old Adam" because it shows any man (helpless creatures all the way back to Adam, the "old" Adam) can be led into temptation. I don't know. I don't feel as sure about that. LOL

I haven't made up my mind on it completely. I think Lawrence is after that layer of pre-civilization in man. Are we sure it's Severn who is the old Adam or is it thomas? Or both?