Heaven or hell?

[Redzeppelin]

I always wondered how religious people saw it.

Heaven is a place for good people, while hell for bad. But that's like seeing world in just black and white. There are people who are neither bad nor good. Some have good intentions, right morals, yet don't believe in god. (see: myself)
Some believe and go to church every sunday yet sin much more than I do.
There is also category which niether believes, nor is particularly food person at heart, but hasn't done anything bad in his/her life etc.
And so so many more.

95% of the population hasn't stolen, killed, maimed etc. Yet they have all sinned repeatedly. Where do they go?

Having asked this question to many of my friends who strongly believe, I only got the answer that It wasn't for us to judge, but
STILL
I wonder, where do 90% of the people, who are neither mostly good or bad go after dying, in Christians opinions.

Heaven isn't for "good" people, hell isn't for "bad" people. One theologian put it this way: "Who will be in heaven? The best answer is people who would enjoy being there." That may seem obvious, but it's really not so. Let me clarify (or confuse) by paraphrasing CS Lewis's take on this issue: In the end, there will be two kinds of people - those who said to God "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says "Thy will be done." That means this:

Those in either place will have chosen that destiny - nobody condemned to hell will be there against their will - they will have chosen it - not once, but many many times throughout their lives as the Holy Spirit tried repeatedly to convict the individual of his/her need of God. Nobody goes to heaven or hell against their will. So, back to the first anecdote I gave: not everybody would enjoy heaven - because heaven is a place where you are not the center of the universe, and some people couldn't stomach that - the old "It's better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" idea.

Heaven is the reward for accepting Christ's gift of salvation through his sacrifice at Calvary; hell is the chosen place for those who continuously reject God's invitations to avoid that fate by accepting Christ's grace and forgiveness.

Non-believers tend to make God out to be this vindicitve referee who "sentences" victims to hell and "mindless robots" to heaven. Far from it - both destinations are chosen by both parties.

Finally - it is not the absence of "big sins" (though all are equal in God's eyes - sorry, but you may find some converted Nazi concentration camp guards among those in heaven...) that keeps one from hell (just as it's not "big sins" that get you there) - it is a relationship with (or a refusal of that relationship) with God/Christ.

[blazeofglory]

I always wondered how religious people saw it.

Heaven is a place for good people, while hell for bad. But that's like seeing world in just black and white. There are people who are neither bad nor good. Some have good intentions, right morals, yet don't believe in god. (see: myself)
Some believe and go to church every sunday yet sin much more than I do.
There is also category which niether believes, nor is particularly food person at heart, but hasn't done anything bad in his/her life etc.
And so so many more.

95% of the population hasn't stolen, killed, maimed etc. Yet they have all sinned repeatedly. Where do they go?

Having asked this question to many of my friends who strongly believe, I only got the answer that It wasn't for us to judge, but
STILL
I wonder, where do 90% of the people, who are neither mostly good or bad go after dying, in Christians opinions.

Friend I subscribe to your ideas hundred percent> You are right. I choose to be an atheist but a humanist. Humanism or philanthropy appeals to me immensely.

[YALASH]

Peace!

Those 90% are clean, for one or another reason message of God did not reached to them. God is Merciful, He will consider that too.

If human is made on the image of God, then original-sin idea do not survive!. Adam and Eve were early version of us. They simple forgot some order of God, soon they repented and God liked repentance. God completely forgave them, according to Quran. It was over. No sin stuck to their genes. Modern man's errors are not due to poor Adams!.

According to Islamic point of view, human is made with noble faculties.(plz see a little baby, how innocent they are---- completely sinless.) These faculties are raw when human are born, then human has to work on it to take it to next stage, called moral-stage ( referred as nafs-e- lawwama in Quran) then more struggle will bring person to final stage called peace-with-God-Stage (nafs-e-mutmainna). Divine education helps human to make progress upward.

Kindly read more in online books

1=THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM
This essay was read at a conference of religions held at Lahore on December26-29,1896. It has since served as an introduction to Islam for seekers of religious knowledge and truth in different parts of the world. It has been translated in several languages.

CONTENTS:
*A Grand Piece of News for Seekers after Truth.
*THE PHYSICAL, MORAL AND SPIRITUAL STATES OF MAN
The soul is created…..gradual progress of man…..true morals…..why is the flesh of swine prohibited…..
Five remedies against unchastity…..proofs of the existence of God…..spiritual conditions…..means of establishing perfect spiritual relationship with God.>>>

*WHAT IS THE STATE OF MAN AFTER DEATH
Three Quranic insights concerning the hereafter…..three types of knowledge.

*THE OBJECT OF MAN’S LIFE AND THE MEANS OF ITS ATTAINMENT
Means of the attainment of man’s purpose.

*THE OPERATION OF THE PRACTICAL ORDINANCES OF THE LAW IN THIS LIFE AND THE NEXT
The philosophy of the oaths of the Holy Quran.

*SOURCES OF DIVINE KNOWLEDGE
Meaning of revelation…..two phases of the life of the Holy Prophet.

w.alislam.org/books/philosophy/ - Similar pages


2= REVELATION, RATIONALITY, KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH
(THE BOOK EXAMINES A VERY DIVERSE AND WIDE RANGE OF SUBJECTS WHICH INTRIGUE MODERN MIND.)

CONTENTS :
==========
Historical perspective, Individual versus society, Islamic school of thought, European and Greek philosophy, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, The question of suffering, Secular viewpoints examined, The concept of God among Aborigines of Australia, The nature of revelation, Divine revelation and rationality, Belief in the unseen, A manifest principle—an everlasting teaching, The Quran and cosmology and E.T. , Entropy and the Finite universe, Origin of life, Different theories and propositions, The essential role of clay/photosynthesis in evolution, Survival by accident or design, and other things..

w.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/index.html

Hope you will find them . thanks.

[cipherdecoy]

If human beings are to be subjected to eternal damnation merely for sinning in a life as short as this, and on the contrary, if they are to enjoy eternal happiness in Heaven, then don't you think God doesn't have a sense of fairness?

Anyway, I've always wondered about the same thing too.

[Pendragon]

One question for some of you, and forgive me if this sounds blunt: If you do not believe in God or you think that there is no afterlife, what are you worried about? There is no reason to question heaven nor hell if you don't believe they exist! For those of us who do, then there might be reason to question the whys and whyfores. I think the Bible is rather clear on the matter, and Cezar had an excellent post on that.

God Bless

[Wintermute]

One question for some of you, and forgive me if this sounds blunt: If you do not believe in God or you think that there is no afterlife, what are you worried about?

God Bless

Hi Dale,

I'm worried because intelligent, gentle people, like yourself, believe in God and an afterlife. If it was all folks with less education and intelligence it wouldn't bother me. But there are a significant minority of Christians who I consider to be much smarter than me. And I guess this is why I remain agnostic and can't find the courage to hop on the atheist train.

I'm fairly certain (not 100%) that the Christian god and heaven are myth. However I am completely baffled by the existence of the universe (or a creator), which simply shouldn't exist by my logic. Something amazing is going on, I just doubt that it cares if I eat meat on Fridays or what my sexual preferences are.

Peace,
Doug

[Wintermute]

Since all people living in this world have an ego, I suppose an atheist would be nervous about the extinction of self that would come with death.

Hello Antiquarian,

I agree. And I feel this is exactly why man created the ideas of a creator, salvation, and an afterlife. That, combined with sorrow and hope.

Imagine sitting around the fire 10,000 years ago and watching your mother or child expire. And realizing that the same fate was lurking in the bushes for you. What comfort it is to hope that you may join them again in some afterlife. This notion would certainly help you with your grief and in my mind is the likely genesis of religion.

Be happy,
Doug

I don't think God cares who eats meat on Friday or what a person's sexual preferences are. The giving up of meat isn't even necessary anymore. The Roman Catholic church allows its members to eat meat on Fridays. It was a commandment of God, but a tradition of the church.

Hi again Antiquarian,

I just used the meat on Friday thing as a variable--kinda like an X or a Y in an algebraic equation. You can replace it with any of the commandments (any version) and I still doubt. For example, I don't think the creator of the universe would give a farthing that I covet my neighbor's wife--the notion seems silly to me.

To the atheists: Where do you think life originated? What is the Prime Mover to you? And, what about the fact that man can neither create nor destroy life? I don't mean man can't "create" a child or other living being in a test tube. He can. But he needs "life," DNA in the form on sperm and egg to do so. Who or what then, can create life?

I don't know. And I don't think you or any other human knows. For example, where do you think God originated?

Cheers,
Doug

[Pendragon]

Hi again Antiquarian,

I don't know. And I don't think you or any other human knows. For example, where do you think God originated?

Cheers,
Doug

The meat thing isn't a commandment, it is a tradition of some people who obviously haven't read their Bible...

1Tim.4

[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
[3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
[4] For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
[5] For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

And if God is what we say He is, that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, that God doesn’t need an origin...

God Bless

Dale (Pendragon)

[Virgil]

Hi Mariami. I can imagine a kind of scattering of consiousness upon death. That which is of God (good) returns to God. That which is not of God is logically prevented from doing so (perfection cannot accept imperfection). Hell, then, is a state of complete separation from God for that which is unable to become one with the divine.

That's this Christian's perspective, but it comes with the caveat that I am not a literalist.

Actually Chester I had a similar thought myself.

[Wintermute]

The meat thing isn't a commandment, it is a tradition of some people who obviously haven't read their Bible...

I know that silly, hehe. I don't think I ever said it was a commandment. Like I told Antiquarian, I just used that as a variable marker. You could insert any religious belief--say how someone is buried, or married, or burned as a witch--I personally doubt, if it exists, a universal creator would care in the slightest what some goober on a little chunk of rock in the corner of an unremarkable galaxy amongst billions of galaxies does. Then again, I could be wrong.

And if God is what we say He is, that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, that God doesn’t need an origin...

Agreed. However the key word there is 'if'.

God Bless

Dale (Pendragon)

Thanks Dale, if it exists, I sure hope it blesses me.

Sincerely,
Doug

[Chester]

I personally doubt, if it exists, a universal creator would care in the slightest what some goober on a little chunk of rock in the corner of an unremarkable galaxy amongst billions of galaxies does.

Unless the universe was created, at least in some way, for the goobers. Since time is inseparable from space, and the universe has expanded since its beginning, it might only be that it's as big as it is, with galaxies numbering in the billions, because that's how much time it took for us to get here.

[Chester]

I don't know much about physics beyond prune juice, Chester, but I do know scientists say the universe has an end. I've always wondered what was beyond that end.

I was watching a movie the other day and naturally I can't remember the title, but someone in it said they didn't believe in God. The other person did. He said, "Do you love me?" She said, "Yes, of course." He said, "Prove it. Not with actions, but prove it to me in words. Can't be done." Of course that has nothing, or very little, to do with our conversation here, I just found it interesting.

I thought the universe was shrinking? But as I said, I don't know much about physics. If I turned out to be right, it would actually surprise me. LOL

Well, what's beyond the universe is nothing. Total nothingness is a tough concept to get one's mind around. I don't mean empty space. I mean a state without time and without space. Complete nothingness.

As far as I know, the universe has been expanding since the big bang.

That's a nice conversation from the movie. Some would use love itself as a proof of God.

[Chester]

Well it's actually more of a philosophical question than a scientific one. If it's accepted that the universe is "all that exists", all that is of time and space, then that which is not of the universe would be nothing. See? There's either something or nothing.

Strangely enough it was me who invoked the philosophical conundrum of perfection earlier in the thread. The Christian idea of course is that free will allows us to act in ways that are not of God. Until man, the universe was perfect. It was good. But once good comes into existence, with it comes evil, at least in concept. Just as dark exists as absence of light and cold exists as absence of heat. It was man, acting in a way not of God (symbolized naturally by the fall in Eden) that made evil manifest in time and space, bringing it from concept to reality. It is this that separates us from God, according to this view. One I kind of like. God remains perfect. The imperfection of the universe is man-made.

[Chester]

And I would describe myself as a panentheist as well. So, yes, if the question is does something exist outside of the universe that is not physical or in some way directly related to time and space, that's a different question than what I answered, and I see now where it came from and why you asked it.

"Hmmm. I'll have to think some more. I haven't been involved in a philosophical conversation in a long, long time."

Well, the big questions aren't going anywhere. That's the nice thing about philosophy. You can always come back to it and it's always just where you left it.

[Pendragon]

I had to look up your term, panetheist . As this is accociated with God as Logos , it isn't too hard for me to accept. More people should actually study about God, then they might find reason to accept that God exists!