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Thread: I'm very confused

  1. #1
    Most brilliant and modest Mariami's Avatar
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    I'm very confused

    Timothy 2:11-14 (NIV): A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

    Peter 3:5-6 (NIV): For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master.

    Numbers 31:14-18 (NIV): Moses was angry with the officers of the army--the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds--who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

    Judges 21:12-22 (NIV): They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man ... So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them ... the elders of the assembly said, "With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? The Benjamite survivors must have heirs," they said," so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out ... But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah. So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, "Go and hide in the vineyards and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin. When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, "Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war ..."

    Corinthians 14:34 (NIV): "women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says

    Paul's famous "wives, submit to your husbands" line in Ephesians 5:23

    Judges 19:22-29 (The famous story of the Levite and his concubine, who he coldly sacrificed to a rape gang. Note that slept peacefully while she was being raped and beaten, and when he discovered her dead body, he promptly mutilated it in order to tell the rest of Israel what had happened (you'd think a written message would be more appropriate than desecrating the dead)
    While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing.
    Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing." But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.
    When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home. When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel.


    Can someone explain it to me?

  2. #2
    In the fog Charles Darnay's Avatar
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    What exactly are you confused about. It all seems pretty clear cut. Male dominance - Adam came first, Even is to blame for the Fall, women should be "chaste, obedient and silent" is certainly not the most praised part about Christianity, but it part of the history.
    I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...

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    Registered User jgweed's Avatar
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    The obvious explanation for such writing is that it reflected what was then the accepted attitude about the status of women (or, for that matter, slaves).
    Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

  4. #4
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    I'd need to read more of the stories to be able to elaborate much on the Old Testament places you quoted, so I'll have to get back to you on that part.

    The other ones are just places where the writers are explaining that the role of a man is a leader. The women are the helpers. That's the way they were designed. In relation to that, remember that the same person who taught that also taught, "Whoever humbles himself like this child, he will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven" and, "The greatest among you shall be your servant."

  5. #5
    Cur etiam hic es? Redzeppelin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Darnay View Post
    What exactly are you confused about. It all seems pretty clear cut. Male dominance - Adam came first, Even is to blame for the Fall, women should be "chaste, obedient and silent" is certainly not the most praised part about Christianity, but it part of the history.
    A drastic over-simplification. Adam did come first, Eve came second. Are you implying that things that come first are better than those that come later? Really? Many theologians will say that if man was the crown of creation week, that woman was the final majestic work of God. As well, Eve was fooled by the serpent, but Adam was not and chose to join Eve out of rebellion - his sin, thus, is worse.



    Miriami:

    You have quoted numerous portions of the Bible without context - and that creates a problem. Not everything you've quoted is supported or condoned by God. I won't deal with them all one by one - I'm short on time. But, I'll deal with the "submission" issue. What you left out was the penultimate text on submission - Ephesians Ch. 5 - here:

    21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.


    22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
    25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.


    Note this - vs 21 says "submit to one another" - that means both men and women are to submit. Yes, women are told to defer to a husband's leadership - but look below: men are told to "love" their wives as Christ did - which is sacrificially. In other words, submission on the wife's part is to be matched by a sacrificial love on the husband's part. Think about it: any man who is sacrificially loving his wife will honor her submission - not take advantage of it; as well, any wife honoring her husband will encourage him to be more loving.

    If Christianity were about male-dominance, I don't think it would provide this important condition: guys are expected to give too.
    "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis

  6. #6
    In the fog Charles Darnay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redzeppelin View Post
    A drastic over-simplification. Adam did come first, Eve came second. Are you implying that things that come first are better than those that come later? Really? Many theologians will say that if man was the crown of creation week, that woman was the final majestic work of God. As well, Eve was fooled by the serpent, but Adam was not and chose to join Eve out of rebellion - his sin, thus, is worse.

    The biggest flaw of Internet conversation is that sarcasm is not easy to convey.

    My statements expressed above were not that of my opinions but rather my opinions of the church's opinions.....and I'm not saying that sexism classifies Christianity, it is a part of it....as it is a part o many religions and nations throughout history.....this is by no means a justification for it.
    I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...

  7. #7
    Circumcised Welder El Viejo's Avatar
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    Mariami,

    (My first thought was that your question was rhetorical. Just in case it isn't, here's a reply...)

    One more instance to add to your list: Lot offers his daughters to the raging crowd, but there's no record of anyone, his wife, God, or the angels, raising any objection.

    There is one clear case where the Bible makes definitive, but contradictory statements, with the apparent message that we're supposed to use our heads and not just blindly apply prescription: Proverbs 26:4 and 26:5. In most cases the contrasting statements are not nearly so easy to find, and simply appear contradictory.

    In the case of the man/woman is like Christ/the church comparison, the image is comforting, but fails to mitigate the very strong 'shut up and obey' message.

    I had hoped to offer some verses to temper the image of woman-as-lower-being, but I can't recall where I made the notes. There are, however, a couple of women in the bible who operated from positions of power without the benefit of a man to submit to. They are the rare exceptions to the rule, but they're there.

    Good luck in your search.

  8. #8
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Male Jews pray every morning praising god for not making them a woman. The book is misogynist by our standards clearly. To judge it as thus is to not do it justice however. The world of the Iliad is misogynist as well, and the whole feud is started over the taking of a female prisoner as a sexual slave prize for the king Agamemnon.

    These are works of literature, and should be read as thus. Their morality is dated for our standards. They should be read, but with that in mind. Even believers cannot expect an "exact" fundamentalist interpretation to be beneficial to a society 3500/2000 years after.

  9. #9
    Bibliophile Drkshadow03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Male Jews pray every morning praising god for not making them a woman.
    If they're Orthodox maybe they do, but Reform Jews don't and I am pretty sure most Conservative Jews don't either (not sure about that last one, though). No offense, but I don't want you to give the wrong impression of modern Judaism, particularly as the majority in American Jews practice it, to non-Jews.
    Last edited by Drkshadow03; 06-07-2008 at 05:57 PM.
    "You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus

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    Why can't my Wife believe all this ? She thinks she's better than me ! Just because she can Cook, Knit. beat me at Chess etc. Doesn't mean she's better innit !

  11. #11
    Ruadh gu brath ampoule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaywalker View Post
    Why can't my Wife believe all this ? She thinks she's better than me ! Just because she can Cook, Knit. beat me at Chess etc. Doesn't mean she's better innit !
    Good one, jaywalker.
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    Not politically correct Pendragon's Avatar
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    Smile

    You aren't confused because there are things that you don’t understand, that is just human nature at work, wondering, that's all. If it is any consolation to you, I don't understand the Old Testament episodes you list either. I think Red did a fairly good job of explaining the rest. Women are not second hand persons, but are there to be loved and respected; you can't do that by putting them down. If a woman has her place, so does a man, and it isn't as a slave master, but a husband: Love, honor, and cherish! Why people use the Bible as an excuse for male chauvinism is beyond me.

    God Bless

    Pen
    Some of us laugh
    Some of us cry
    Some of us smoke
    Some of us lie
    But it's all just the way
    that we cope with our lives...

  13. #13
    amazing and bravo...

    i won't quote scripture just to piss everone off here. instead allow me to ask a few questions:

    Who was the first person that Jesus revealed himself to?
    What gender was that individual?
    Who was she commisioned to go Tell?

    who were the financial backers of Pauls Ministry?

    Why didn't Jesus tell Mary to get back in the Kitchen with martha... where she belonged?

    the woman caught in sin... why didn't Jesus cast the first stone?

    Why was precilla menioned before aquilla (anyone that has studied ancient text will see the interest in this question)?

    Why is God refered to in the hebrew as a 'man' with 'feminine' traits?

    why is it that 3/4 of the churches are filled with women?

    why was the ratio at the cross 2 to 1 man vs. women?

    if the above mentioned were true, why was this not mentioned in ALL NT books, instead of only a couple?

    if the text are correct in traditional conservative context, how are women not property?

    all those and more, of course. and i realize that some may be a streach.... but you take these quesitons to those text, and you come away with a different approach...

    ...

    don't you think...


    you have heard it said... Women must be silent... but i say to you

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

    Good thing that Quote isn't in the bible or it would make this heated topic look silly... (oops!)

  14. #14
    Registered User Equality72521's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    Women are not second hand persons, but are there to be loved and respected; you can't do that by putting them down. If a woman has her place, so does a man, and it isn't as a slave master, but a husband: Love, honor, and cherish! Why people use the Bible as an excuse for male chauvinism is beyond me.

    God Bless

    Pen
    I definatley wouldn't think to look to the bible for male chauvinism (sp?). If you look to the book of Esther, I think, I don't even know if she wrote a book, but I've heard her story, I'm pretty sure she did though, but she definately shows the respecting relationship between husband and wife. It's one of my favorite bible stories.....Which is actually odd, considering I don't believe in god.

    {I'm not going to lie, I know Esther has a story in the bible, but I'm not sure if she has a book.}
    Little one, Fate might miscarry.
    Little one, why do you tarry?
    Little one, When May I marry you?
    My little one.

  15. #15
    Bibliophile Drkshadow03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equality72521 View Post
    I definatley wouldn't think to look to the bible for male chauvinism (sp?). If you look to the book of Esther, I think, I don't even know if she wrote a book, but I've heard her story, I'm pretty sure she did though, but she definately shows the respecting relationship between husband and wife. It's one of my favorite bible stories.....Which is actually odd, considering I don't believe in god.

    {I'm not going to lie, I know Esther has a story in the bible, but I'm not sure if she has a book.}
    The Book of Esther isn't really about equality in a relationship. The Persian King she marries is a imbecile; he is literally too stupid to be her equal. Likewise, she is ridiculously submissive, relying on her beauty and sexual charms to win her favors. Any intelligent deed she does if I remember correctly happens after she obediently obeys Mordecai's directions. The book celebrate Mordecai if anybody.
    "You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus

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