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Thread: Chekhov Short Story Thread

  1. #541
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quark, yes, your post was fine and I agree with all. I only feel badly, that Kovrin was given but two options in this story, and both are extremes. Back then, the 'cure' was quite ineffective, as far as working to 'stabilze' his mental illness. I also wondered if halucinations can come about, because of the TB. I was going to look that up online and see if that would shed any light on this whole story. Of course, it might also be, that sensing he did have the TB, even before he is diagnosed with it, and then being overworked, prompted the halucinations. Sometimes, certain traumas in a persons life will bring on latent mental symptoms to this extreme. Halucinating is not normal and it is an extreme of a mental condition. Most likely, as Antiquarian has before mentioned, this condition would only worsen with time. For instance, he would see the black monk more frequently and it could get to the point, where it really did invade his mind and his privacy, disrupting his life. At the point, when we encounter the monk, except at the very end, the monk seems benign enough and not an evil presense to Kovrin. Laterm that same monk (halucination) could appear hostile and really drive Kovrin to do thingsm he would not normally have been capable of.

    Yes, It is true, Quark - I do despise opinion polls and once again everyone is giving their opinion on the various characters; maybe that can be kept to a minimum this time. I just don't see the relavance of all that. It seems to me these characters are only partly portrayed, so who can really judge them? Also, they seem to be very complex humans, in this thread and the L thread. Hey, Quark, maybe we need a sticky poll thread, just to deal with the various characters, so we can evaluate each of their worths; vote on them and express our opinions about each.

    I will check in later, I was out earlier and going out for dinner now.
    Last edited by Janine; 05-28-2008 at 04:35 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  2. #542
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Well I like giving my opinions about characters and I really do not see what is so awuful about that. Besides which, if I read a story in which I do not in fact formulate any opnions about the characters I end up finding the story boring sense I do not really care about anything that happens to anyone. For me if I feel neutral about a character, than that makes them bland in my eye.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  3. #543
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    It is not that I am against expressing opinions on the characters or the story, but I just feel that would be more appropriate at the end, after the discussion; then there would be the option to listen to these opinions or not, and also at that time, it would not take up a lot of posts when we are just getting started discussing the story. It is a shame when the discussion seems to vere offtrack from the general ideas being presented, about the actual story text and the images in that part of the text. I think opinions are personal and I think expressing them first, does affect the way in which we see and discuss the story. Plus, we often get into contraversies concerning the characters. I find that kind of distasteful.

    I don't know why I seem to be the only one, who doesn't strongly express an opinion about the characters. I find all of them fascinating and of interest in their own way. I don't normally, pass judgement on real people either, unless they give me extreme cause to dislike or distrust them. I guess this carries over into the fact, that I don't like the constant post discussions on whether the characters are morally correct or whether they are likable/dislikable. I guess, I am a lot more tolerant than you two are, but I do feel intensely involved in these stories, so I don't think it is that I don't connect with these characters. In fact, I could relate to Igor, because I once had a good size well-tended garden and found myself obsessing about it all the time; I could relate to Kovrin, because I have known people in his type situation, I could relate to Tania, because I also have know someone who had to be subordinate to an elder and felt abligated to carry on, when the elder no longer could; also, another person who had to deal with a mentally ill husband. So I did not find anyone, that I could honestly say, I 'disliked' in this story. They all had weaknesses, flaws and their good points. I guess I just like people and I don't try and judge them, espeically when I don't really know their full situation.

    Maybe at the end of these discussions we just need a section for 'character analysis'.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  4. #544
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Ahh yes, that is why we disagree so much. Becasue being a misanthope, in general I dislike people and so in real life I do make very harsh judgements.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  5. #545
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    I don't think we're judging them, Janine. People just have an emotional reaction to a character, but it doesn't mean we're judging. I didn't like Tania very much, but I'm not saying she was bad or good or any place in between. She just didn't elicit a positive emotional response from me.
    Ok, judging was too harsh a word, so I can go along with that.

    Digressing for a moment, the great Irish author, John Banville often goes out of his way to make us dislike a character. His protagonists are usually middle-age or senior males, who are very unreliable narrators, yet fascinating, but despite their fascinating qualities, they are usually jerks.
    I am sure there are many authors want us to dislike their characters or feel strongly toward them. I just don't think we have to constantly be expressing just how much we hate or like a character. I don't see the point of that in the story discussion.

    I think if a writer doesn't make us like or dislike a character, then he's failed, at least in part, in his writing. And I'm just going to have to claim superiority here as I'm the one with the MFA in Creative Writing. LOL (I do have the MFA, but I'm joking about "claiming superiority." I wouldn't do that.)
    Well, I think you are still reading me all wrong. I just think sometimes these discussions get out of hand; the point is I don't see what purpose there is debating the various charaters. Truly, it begins to give me a headache, even anxiety. I didn't say we all would not form some type of opinion by the end, but I think it's better to discuss the stories/plots/devices in conjunction with the characters first, and then come up with conclusions. I just feel this is putting the 'horse before the cart', when right away, we say 'I don't like her or him', or I 'liked her or him'; it also seems pointless this early on in the general discussion. I guess to me, it also feels somewhat negative, as a way to begin our discussions.

    Antiquarian, feel free to claim superiority if you want to; I don't really care; hey, you earned it. I only have a BFA in Illustration, what do I know? I will still like you!

    Well, whatever...I just won't read your 'like', 'dislike' posts, that is all. If Quark were not so slow, he would be posting more text, to discuss by now; then restlessness would not abound. Just seems we lose track of the general part of the discussion. Actually, I do need to go back and address his last post, much of that made sense to me, some was to me, and I liked what he pointed out in that post; I forgot all about it. Now I am kind of tired and may go watch a film; so I will wait till tomorrow.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  6. #546
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I think it's better to discuss the stories/plots/devices in conjunction with the characters first, and then come up with conclusions. I just feel this is putting the 'horse before the cart', when right away, we say 'I don't like her or him', or I 'liked her or him'; it also seems pointless this early on in the general discussion. I guess to me, it also feels somewhat negative, as a way to begin our discussions.
    Well for me it is almost impossible to discuss those things without bringing in my opinions of the characters into it, becasue the way I precieive the charactors, goes into how I look at the story at large.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  7. #547
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    Quark has not posted much of the story. We don't have much to discuss, that's right.
    Well, Antiquarian, that sounds more reasonable. I do appreciate you understanding what I am trying to convey. I like hearing the characters are not black or white; that they are interesting an complex. I can't ever recall reading a commentary where the critc, actually came out and said he liked or disliked a character, personally. Maybe we need a disclaimer here that starts out 'the opinions expressed on this ...." like the ones they now have on DVD movies.


    I hope you know I was just kidding about "claiming superiority." I wouldn't do that. Ever. And Quark is our leader here, not me. I'm terrible, really terrible at leading a discussion. LOL That was proven in the Faulkner thread. And I don't enjoy it anyway. I'd rather just be a contributor.
    YES, of course, I knew you were kidding; and I was kidding you back; we need a better assortment of expressive emoticons in here. hahah - Yeah, maybe we should make you the leader in the next discussion. I bet you would run the other way fast. You did not do a bad job in the Faulkner thread - you didn't persist enough and then you ended up getting overwhelmed. It can be a daunting task. I find it hard to keep the discussion on track, too. I just persist more than you did I guess, even if people end up hating me! I have some thick skin by now. Unfortunately, your Faulkner thread did draw too many people and there again is a example of mere opinions being expressed and nothing in the way of a real story discussion even getting underway. That was a pity since that story was a fine one and would have been great to discuss, using the text.

    I might go watch a movie, too. It seems like a good idea tonight. We don't want to get off-topic again, so I guess we should wait on Quark to post.
    Yes, I grabbed two from my library and they both have to be returned in two days; so I better watch one tonight. They may both be booms, who knows, but they sounded good. One is actually a romantic comedy about two chefs. I keep thinking I may have seen that one before; hope I did not. It looks funny.

    [quote]It seems that as soon as Quark, leaves we all get restless; that is becoming our usual scenerio. It did just now dawn on me, if I don't want to express an opinion, I should probably just keep out of your and Dark Muse's discussion. I just feel badly that the text Q, posted got lost somewhere a page or so back. We don't have L to occuppy us now either, so we are all at loose ends, I imagine.

    Going to relax now and go to movieland. Enjoy your movie, too!
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  8. #548
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    Yes I have to say I always liked Kovrin as well, and I really do not think his nonchalance about himself is all that bad of a thing. After all it is own life to take whatever attitude he wants about it.
    You don't think his carelessness in any way sped up his deterioration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    I sort of had mixed feelings about Tania, at first I liked her, but she did get quite annoying with her constant burst of tears and little tantrums, and well personally I did not agree with the way she treated Kovrin, when she first found out about the delusions, she totally flipped out on him instead of trying to be understanding.
    We don't get enough characterization of Tania to say anything definitive about her, but there are a few paragraphs toward the middle which are illuminating. Of course, now I can't find them! Chekhov's description of her makes it seem like her main concern is her husband. Like Kovrin and his writing and Egor and his gardening, Tania has her own obsession. When Kovrin starts hallucinating, I think she starts to worry that her husband is leaving her. He is, after all. He has TB. I think that's why she flips out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    Egor amused me.
    Egor--it's Yegor in my book (go figure)--is funny. His pedantic work on gardening made me smile, but he isn't completely harmless. Look at what he does to Tania. He drives her away with his monomania for cultivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Quark, yes, your post was fine and I agree with all. I only feel badly, that Kovrin was given but two options in this story, and both are extremes.
    That's part of the tragedy here. He can either be healthy and social or he can be brilliant and interesting. Kovrin tries to have it both ways and he ends up losing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I also wondered if halucinations can come about, because of the TB.
    I don't think that's a symptom of TB, but in the story it is. Kovrin, at least, believes it is. He says at one point that Black Monk must be caused by his weakening body, and the hallucination agrees with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Yes, It is true, Quark - I do despise opinion polls and once again everyone is giving their opinion on the various characters; maybe that can be kept to a minimum this time. I just don't see the relavance of all that.
    Well characterization is part of fiction. Some critics actually think that characterization is the most over-developed element of nineteenth-century fiction. I think we would be missing part of the story if we didn't talk about it. That being said, I don't want the conversation to devolve into useless labeling. Sometimes people will say something like "I found her to be just icky", and the rest of us will have nothing to say to that. First of all, what did that person mean by icky? Even if I figure out what they mean (and usually I don't), I still don't have anything I can say to them. What could I say? Ickiness is a matter of opinion which I really can't argue with. Those kinds of statements are usually conversation-enders, and I try to stay away from saying things like that. Let's not confuse ickiness, though, with actual characterization--which is very important. I think you can have an intelligent conversation about one without it having to resort to the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    I usually form strong opinions about characters as well, DM. I don't think it can be helped.
    No one's trying to stifle opinion. We're just saying that you should expect to talk about whatever you put out there, and so it should be something valid to the conversation and open to debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    Literature is usually designed to call forth an emotional response, so I think it's natural for us to like or dislike certain characters.
    That's true, but hopefully your reaction is more nuanced that like and dislike--and you can find reasons for why you react that way. If you can do those things, then it makes it easier on the rest of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    Now, Borges was a thematic writer. Good as he was, I don't particularly care for him because I don't find much emotion in his stories.
    He is a remarkably cold writer. I'm not a huge Borges fan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    I didn't like Tania very much. She was too spoiled for my taste.
    DM brought this up, and I posted a response above on this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    If Quark were not so slow, he would be posting more text, to discuss by now; then restlessness would not abound.
    I can take a hint. I'll post the next chunk very soon. I was just going slow since this there's so much to talk about.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  9. #549
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    You don't think his carelessness in any way sped up his deterioration?
    Even if it does, that is his personal choice to take that apporach to it. I do not think anyone has the right to tell him that he is dealing with his own problems in the wrong way. If that is what he wants to do, that is his right to do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Egor--it's Yegor in my book (go figure)--is funny. His pedantic work on gardening made me smile, but he isn't completely harmless. Look at what he does to Tania. He drives her away with his monomania for cultivation.
    I do not see it as his compeltely driving her away. Throughout the book even if they have thier fights, she remains loyal to her father. He even comes and lives with her and Kovrin and at the end, she is angry with Kovrin becasue she blames him for her father's death, when Kovrin leaves her, she returns to her father. And he is the one that wanted the to them to get together, becasue he thought Kovrin was the only one his garden could be trusted with.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  10. #550
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    Even if it does, that is his personal choice to take that apporach to it. I do not think anyone has the right to tell him that he is dealing with his own problems in the wrong way. If that is what he wants to do, that is his right to do it.
    I'm not necessarily saying Kovrin should have done this or that. I was just pointing out that his careless attitude might be a symptom of his mental state. Since it's a recurring trait in Kovrin we shouldn't overlook it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    I do not see it as his compeltely driving her away. Throughout the book even if they have thier fights, she remains loyal to her father. He even comes and lives with her and Kovrin and at the end, she is angry with Kovrin becasue she blames him for her father's death, when Kovrin leaves her, she returns to her father. And he is the one that wanted the to them to get together, becasue he thought Kovrin was the only one his garden could be trusted with.
    Perhaps he doesn't drive her away, but he certainly puts a strain on their relationship with his hobby. We'll look at this more after I post the next section of the story. That part has the introduction of Tania and Egor.

    I'll post that part in an hour or two. Right now I'm playing cards.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  11. #551
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    I do not completely agree, I think even if he has a wife, his illness, physcial or other wise, and his dealing with the possiblity of his own death, is a very personal thing, and I do not think anyone else has the right to dictate to him how he deals with those things, becasue they are not the ones experincing it. I do not think being married takes away all of ones personal choice in thier life.

    And his wife, I do not think exzactly dealt with it in a very good way. She was not really very supportive of understanding of him at all.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  12. #552
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Before I forget, here's the text for the next section:

    Kovrin arrived at Pesotsky's at ten o'clock in the evening. He found Tanya and her father, Yegor Semyonitch, in great anxiety. The clear starlight sky and the thermometer foretold a frost towards morning, and meanwhile Ivan Karlovitch, the gardener, had gone to the town, and they had no one to rely upon. At supper they talked of nothing but the morning frost, and it was settled that Tanya should not go to bed, and between twelve and one should walk through the garden, and see that everything was done properly, and Yegor Semyonitch should get up at three o'clock or even earlier.

    Kovrin sat with Tanya all the evening, and after midnight went out with her into the garden. It was cold. There was a strong smell of burning already in the garden. In the big orchard, which was called the commercial garden, and which brought Yegor Semyonitch several thousand clear profit, a thick, black, acrid smoke was creeping over the ground and, curling around the trees, was saving those thousands from the frost. Here the trees were arranged as on a chessboard, in straight and regular rows like ranks of soldiers, and this severe pedantic regularity, and the fact that all the trees were of the same size, and had tops and trunks all exactly alike, made them look monotonous and even dreary. Kovrin and Tanya walked along the rows where fires of dung, straw, and all sorts of refuse were smouldering, and from time to time they were met by labourers who wandered in the smoke like shadows. The only trees in flower were the cherries, plums, and certain sorts of apples, but the whole garden was plunged in smoke, and it was only near the nurseries that Kovrin could breathe freely.

    "Even as a child I used to sneeze from the smoke here," he said, shrugging his shoulders, "but to this day I don't understand how smoke can keep off frost."

    "Smoke takes the place of clouds when there are none . . ." answered Tanya.

    "And what do you want clouds for?"

    "In overcast and cloudy weather there is no frost."

    "You don't say so."

    He laughed and took her arm. Her broad, very earnest face, chilled with the frost, with her delicate black eyebrows, the turned-up collar of her coat, which prevented her moving her head freely, and the whole of her thin, graceful figure, with her skirts tucked up on account of the dew, touched him.

    "Good heavens! she is grown up," he said. "When I went away from here last, five years ago, you were still a child. You were such a thin, longlegged creature, with your hair hanging on your shoulders; you used to wear short frocks, and I used to tease you, calling you a heron. . . . What time does!"

    "Yes, five years!" sighed Tanya. "Much water has flowed since then. Tell me, Andryusha, honestly," she began eagerly, looking him in the face: "do you feel strange with us now? But why do I ask you? You are a man, you live your own interesting life, you are somebody. . . . To grow apart is so natural! But however that may be, Andryusha, I want you to think of us as your people. We have a right to that."
    I have three observations to make about this part, but I'll have to wait until tomorrow. At the moment I'm still at the table.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  13. #553
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Kovrin sat with Tanya all the evening, and after midnight went out with her into the garden. It was cold. There was a strong smell of burning already in the garden. In the big orchard, which was called the commercial garden, and which brought Yegor Semyonitch several thousand clear profit, a thick, black, acrid smoke was creeping over the ground and, curling around the trees, was saving those thousands from the frost. Here the trees were arranged as on a chessboard, in straight and regular rows like ranks of soldiers, and this severe pedantic regularity, and the fact that all the trees were of the same size, and had tops and trunks all exactly alike, made them look monotonous and even dreary. Kovrin and Tanya walked along the rows where fires of dung, straw, and all sorts of refuse were smouldering, and from time to time they were met by labourers who wandered in the smoke like shadows. The only trees in flower were the cherries, plums, and certain sorts of apples, but the whole garden was plunged in smoke, and it was only near the nurseries that Kovrin could breathe freely.
    I thought this was an absolute beautiful discription. I love the way the trees are called soliders in thier ranks.

    This is a very different view we had earlier of the garden as well. Here it is seen as more deary with the talk of the frost, and the smoke. And I loved the imagery of the laboruers like shadows in the smoke. That is almost ghost like.

    The only trees in flower were the cherries, plums, and certain sorts of apples, but the whole garden was plunged in smoke, and it was only near the nurseries that Kovrin could breathe freely
    I think this was an interesting passage. They way the garden was plunged in smoke, and the line

    it was only near the nurseries that Kovrin could breathe freely
    I thought that was an interesting choice of words.

    Much water has flowed since then
    I found this an interesting way to talking about the passage of time. And I wonder just what she is refering to, by "much water has passed" is that ment to be in refernce to how many times it had rained sense she last saw them?

    It does fit she would speak in such terms considering how much her life is steeped in her fathers obcesssion with the garden

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  14. #554
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Looking at this portion I posted, I notice a few things. First, this is the introduction of Tania and Egor.

    Kovrin arrived at Pesotsky's at ten o'clock in the evening. He found Tanya and her father, Yegor Semyonitch, in great anxiety. The clear starlight sky and the thermometer foretold a frost towards morning, and meanwhile Ivan Karlovitch, the gardener, had gone to the town, and they had no one to rely upon. At supper they talked of nothing but the morning frost, and it was settled that Tanya should not go to bed, and between twelve and one should walk through the garden, and see that everything was done properly, and Yegor Semyonitch should get up at three o'clock or even earlier.
    Kovrin arrives at night, but Tania and Egor are still up. They're worried about the plants making it through the night. This should remind us of Kovrin and his anxieties. Like Kovrin, they stay up through the night minding the garden when they should be unconscious in bed. Already Chekhov is drawing the parallel between the gardeners and Kovrin.

    Yegor and Tania work as a pair here. It becomes clear what Yegor gets out of his labor, but why does Tania work so hard and forgo sleep for this ostentatious garden?

    The next part of the quote I posted has the description of the orchard and smoke. Chekhov's paragraph:

    Kovrin sat with Tanya all the evening, and after midnight went out with her into the garden. It was cold. There was a strong smell of burning already in the garden. In the big orchard, which was called the commercial garden, and which brought Yegor Semyonitch several thousand clear profit, a thick, black, acrid smoke was creeping over the ground and, curling around the trees, was saving those thousands from the frost. Here the trees were arranged as on a chessboard, in straight and regular rows like ranks of soldiers, and this severe pedantic regularity, and the fact that all the trees were of the same size, and had tops and trunks all exactly alike, made them look monotonous and even dreary. Kovrin and Tanya walked along the rows where fires of dung, straw, and all sorts of refuse were smouldering, and from time to time they were met by labourers who wandered in the smoke like shadows. The only trees in flower were the cherries, plums, and certain sorts of apples, but the whole garden was plunged in smoke, and it was only near the nurseries that Kovrin could breathe freely.
    Maybe my mania for comparing the garden to Kovrin's work is excessive, but I can't help saying that the "pedantic" placement and cut of the trees resembles Kovrin's fear that his work is dull. The frustrated scholar burns his later work because he believes it's filled with this kind of pedantry. In the orchard--and in Egor's writing--it's proudly displayed.

    The smoke makes Kovrin cough or sneeze which Janine already noticed is a foreshadowing of his illness. The smoke is also part of Egor's strained attempts to keep the garden beautiful and productive. Unfortunately, it pushes people away. Kovrin has to stay by the nursery because the fumes are too much. If we're pushing the comparison of the garden to Kovrin's work to extreme, then we can look at the smoke as the unfortunate side-effects of his labors as well. Kovrin's obsession pushes his friends away just as the noxious smoke repels people. The laborers in the distance make the resemblance even closer. Kovrin sees a shadowy figure associated with his work, and here he sees several shadowy figures connected with the garden.

    Finally, I posted the first half of the dialogue between Tania and Kovrin which ends in this request from Tania:

    "Yes, five years!" sighed Tanya. "Much water has flowed since then. Tell me, Andryusha, honestly," she began eagerly, looking him in the face: "do you feel strange with us now? But why do I ask you? You are a man, you live your own interesting life, you are somebody. . . . To grow apart is so natural! But however that may be, Andryusha, I want you to think of us as your people. We have a right to that."
    Tania is a typical Chekhov character. She's the frail, demure woman who acts as the love-interest for the male lead character. Usually, the woman is under the care of another character--this time Yegor--and she often lacks emotional and intellectual independence. I'm not sure if Chekhov was attracted to this type or what, but she plays a prominent role in his fiction. For examples, look at "The House with the Mansard", "Anyuta", and the most famous example "The Darling." Tania falls into this category because she appears to be living her life through the men she's with. When she's with Yegor she's convinced that the garden and Yegor's writing is the most important things in the universe. Then, when she meets Kovrin it suddenly becomes about him. That's why she demands that he consider them "your people." She's desperate for another man to become her universe. Hence why she bursts out "You are a man, you live your own interesting life, you are somebody."

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    I don't think Tania dealt with him in the right way, either. Not as a loving wife should. Granted, it would have been very difficult for her, but I do think this is the reason why I didn't like her so much. She seemed rather selfish, but again, I'll have to reread the story.
    I think this goes with what I'm saying above. Before you condemn Tania for her weaknesses, though, we should remember that each character has their obsession.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    I thought this was an absolute beautiful discription. I love the way the trees are called soliders in thier ranks.
    The descriptions throughout are very well-done. Each is vivid and filled with meaning. Above, I explained some of what I thought the meaning was for the trees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    This is a very different view we had earlier of the garden as well. Here it is seen as more deary with the talk of the frost, and the smoke. And I loved the imagery of the laboruers like shadows in the smoke. That is almost ghost like.
    Once again, it's another contrast. The joyous garden he finds at first moves aside to reveal a gloomy orchard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    I thought that was an interesting choice of words.
    Do you think there's anything significant about him taking refuge by the nursery? I mentioned the fact that this is his childhood home. Perhaps, the fact that he's by a nursery is meant to be another indication of what this place means to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    I found this an interesting way to talking about the passage of time. And I wonder just what she is refering to, by "much water has passed" is that ment to be in refernce to how many times it had rained sense she last saw them?
    I took it to mean like water passing in the river of time. It's a common expression. Also, it might be like water under the bridge.
    Last edited by Quark; 05-29-2008 at 04:45 PM.
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    [...] O mais! par instants"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Do you think there's anything significant about him taking refuge by the nursery? I mentioned the fact that this is his childhood home. Perhaps, the fact that he's by a nursery is meant to be another indication of what this place means to him.
    I did not think of it that way. It would make sense, but I was thinking about maybe his refrecne to the "only place he could breathe freely" might somehow relate to his later illness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    I took it to mean like water passing in the river of time. It's a common expression. Also, it might be like water under the bridge.
    Ahh, yes I did not think of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Before you condemn Tania for her weaknesses, though, we should remember that each character has their obsession.
    Hehe yes, but some obcessions are just more annoying than others, her constant tantrums are far less charming than having conversations with a monk and less amusing than being fantatical about a garden.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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